Australasian Common Chimpanzee Population

[Zoofan15]

This would account for Luka's later boldness in standing up to Mike, since he didn't fear his father as much and had Lucy's backing.

I did observe Sally's fascination with children several times when I visited her at both Auckland and Hamilton Zoos. Of all the chimps except perhaps Chiku, she seemed to show the most interest in the visitors, no doubt due to her being hand-reared. I still have a photo somewhere of a rainy day in the Hamilton chimp house with me up near the window and Sally standing next to me - this was in 2019, I think.

Furthermore, the Auckland troop was centred around a nuclear family (Mike, Lucy and their sons). This contrasts with large communities such as Taronga’s where the family unit is comprised of the mother and her offspring. Under this concept, Mike was effectively his own family unit; with Lucy and her sons representing another, which only became more powerful as her sons entered adulthood.

It’s well documented that the days of tyrannical chimpanzee alphas are numbered from the start and while Mike had no opposition for many years; it was clear the females (especially Lucy) would support the takeover of what they perceived to be a less aggressive leader. Fimi threw a spinner in the works by supporting Mike when she arrived; while Sanda initially favoured Lucifer.

 

[ApeLadyNZ]

Furthermore, the Auckland troop was centred around a nuclear family (Mike, Lucy and their sons). This contrasts with large communities such as Taronga’s where the family unit is comprised of the mother and her offspring. Under this concept, Mike was effectively his own family unit; with Lucy and her sons representing another, which only became more powerful as her sons entered adulthood.

It’s well documented that the days of tyrannical chimpanzee alphas are numbered from the start and while Mike had no opposition for many years; it was clear the females (especially Lucy) would support the takeover of what they perceived to be a less aggressive leader. Fimi threw a spinner in the works by supporting Mike when she arrived; while Sanda initially favoured Lucifer.

Tyrants generally have short reigns, it's true. Gombe chimpanzee Frodo is a classic example - only four or five years if I recall correctly. I do wonder sometimes how the troop dynamics changed if Lucifer had become alpha, but I imagine he would have been swiftly challenged by Luka anyway.

 

[Zoofan15]

Tyrants generally have short reigns, it's true. Gombe chimpanzee Frodo is a classic example - only four or five years if I recall correctly. I do wonder sometimes how the troop dynamics changed if Lucifer had become alpha, but I imagine he would have been swiftly challenged by Luka anyway.

Tyrants are often killed in the wild as they refuse to step aside, even if it’s what the community wants. I feel like Lucifer would have been a weak alpha and weak alphas usually last even less time than tyrants. Danny (1978) at Taronga was one such male. He rose to the alpha position in the late 80’s, following the export of the previous alpha male to the US. He was barely in the role for a year, when he was overthrown by an ambitious 10 year old, who had the makings of a tyrant. Danny was a reluctant leader, who assumed the role because of a lack of opposition.

 

[ApeLadyNZ]

Tyrants are often killed in the wild as they refuse to step aside, even if it’s what the community wants. I feel like Lucifer would have been a weak alpha and weak alphas usually last even less time than tyrants. Danny (1978) at Taronga was one such male. He rose to the alpha position in the late 80’s, following the export of the previous alpha male to the US. He was barely in the role for a year, when he was overthrown by an ambitious 10 year old, who had the makings of a tyrant. Danny was a reluctant leader, who assumed the role because of a lack of opposition.

Yes, I'd agree with you there that Lucifer would not have been a strong alpha. Even if Sanda favoured him, Lucy, I believe, would have continued to favour Luka and Lucy vastly outranks Sanda.

 

[Zoofan15]

Yes, I'd agree with you there that Lucifer would not have been a strong alpha. Even if Sanda favoured him, Lucy, I believe, would have continued to favour Luka and Lucy vastly outranks Sanda.

Aside from her role in protecting him growing up, I feel like Lucy recognised Luka as a better fit for the alpha role (first over Mike; and then over Lucifer). Fimi and Luka clashed and her support of Mike caused problems within the troop. Her choice to support Mike was likely a power play, given that had he succeeded in reclaiming the alpha position, Fimi would have seen her standing in the community rise. She ranked above Suzie and Sally, but below Lucy who has been the alpha female of the troop since the 1980’s.

 

[ApeLadyNZ]

Aside from her role in protecting him growing up, I feel like Lucy recognised Luka as a better fit for the alpha role (first over Mike; and then over Lucifer). Fimi and Luka clashed and her support of Mike caused problems within the troop. Her choice to support Mike was likely a power play, given that had he succeeded in reclaiming the alpha position, Fimi would have seen her standing in the community rise. She ranked above Suzie and Sally, but below Lucy who has been the alpha female of the troop since the 1980’s.

Thanks for that! I never got to see Fimi, sadly, but it would have been interesting to see how she functioned in the troop. And it will be interesting to see how the dynamics in the troop as it stands will progress. Luka has no challengers as alpha, and from what I've seen from my infrequent visits, the troop appears fairly harmonious. I've heard talk that Lucy favours Kendi above Chiku, the way she favoured Luka over Lucifer, but Chiku seems a lot bolder in nature than her uncle ever was. It'll be interesting to see what happens as the two younger females grow up.

 

[Zoofan15]

Thanks for that! I never got to see Fimi, sadly, but it would have been interesting to see how she functioned in the troop. And it will be interesting to see how the dynamics in the troop as it stands will progress. Luka has no challengers as alpha, and from what I've seen from my infrequent visits, the troop appears fairly harmonious. I've heard talk that Lucy favours Kendi above Chiku, the way she favoured Luka over Lucifer, but Chiku seems a lot bolder in nature than her uncle ever was. It'll be interesting to see what happens as the two younger females grow up.

There’s a good photo of Fimi in this article (you can really see the resemblance between her and Sanda/Tsotsi).

Pucker up: summer lovin' happens so fast

It also gives an account of the introduction of her and Sanda to the troop. Mike temporarily reclaimed the alpha role, but this was very short lived and the zoo resorted to managing a split troop of Sally, Fimi, Lucy and Lucifer; and Luka and Sanda in the aftermath of Mike’s death. Fimi was the highest ranking female in Adelaide’s troop and objected to Luka’s attempts to dominate her.

I agree it’ll be interesting to see how the dynamics change as Sanda’s daughters mature. Hopefully she’s around long enough to get some benefit from having adult offspring in the troop. It’s strange to think there’s only 10 years between Lucy and Sanda - with Lucy also being the eldest female in the region.

 

[ApeLadyNZ]

There’s a good photo of Fimi in this article (you can really see the resemblance between her and Sanda/Tsotsi).

Pucker up: summer lovin' happens so fast

It also gives an account of the introduction of her and Sanda to the troop. Mike temporarily reclaimed the alpha role, but this was very short lived and the zoo resorted to managing a split troop of Sally, Fimi, Lucy and Lucifer; and Luka and Sanda in the aftermath of Mike’s death. Fimi was the highest ranking female in Adelaide’s troop and objected to Luka’s attempts to dominate her.

I agree it’ll be interesting to see how the dynamics change as Sanda’s daughters mature. Hopefully she’s around long enough to get some benefit from having adult offspring in the troop. It’s strange to think there’s only 10 years between Lucy and Sanda - with Lucy also being the eldest female in the region.

Thank you for the article/photo! Yes, Fimi looked very like Sanda. It's a pity she was never able to breed with Luka due to the conflict between them, but it's fortunate at least Sanda was able to have two healthy daughters.

An Australian friend told me that Lisa at Taronga Zoo is Lucy's sister or half-sister - is that correct?

 

[Jambo]

Thank you for the article/photo! Yes, Fimi looked very like Sanda. It's a pity she was never able to breed with Luka due to the conflict between them, but it's fortunate at least Sanda was able to have two healthy daughters.

An Australian friend told me that Lisa at Taronga Zoo is Lucy's sister or half-sister - is that correct?

Yes they're half sisters - both have the same mother, Lulu.

Lucy's father was Bobby who was also the father of Lisa's sire, Jojo.

 

[Zoofan15]

Thank you for the article/photo! Yes, Fimi looked very like Sanda. It's a pity she was never able to breed with Luka due to the conflict between them, but it's fortunate at least Sanda was able to have two healthy daughters.

An Australian friend told me that Lisa at Taronga Zoo is Lucy's sister or half-sister - is that correct?

Yes they're half sisters - both have the same mother, Lulu.

Lucy's father was Bobby who was also the father of Lisa's sire, Jojo.

Lisa and Lucy are half-sisters. Lulu (1960) gave birth to Lucy (1975), who was the last offspring sired by Bobby (1950-1975). His son, Jojo (1964) then sired Lulu’s next daughter, Lisa (1979).

This means Mike (1973-2011) was also a half brother of Lucy via their shared sired (Bobby).

Personally, I always thought it would have been preferable to have sent Belle to Auckland instead of Lucy (given Belle didn’t have an infant offspring in 1985). On hindsight, it also would have been nice to have retained another female from Bessie’s line given her poor representation today.

 

[ApeLadyNZ]

Lisa and Lucy are half-sisters. Lulu (1960) gave birth to Lucy (1975), who was the last offspring sired by Bobby (1950-1975). His son, Jojo (1964) then sired Lulu’s next daughter, Lisa (1979).

This means Mike (1973-2011) was also a half brother of Lucy via their shared sired (Bobby).

Personally, I always thought it would have been preferable to have sent Belle to Auckland instead of Lucy (given she didn’t have an infant offspring). On hindsight, it also would have been nice to have retained another female from Bessie’s line given her poor representation today.

I too am surprised that Taronga sent a female related to Mike to Auckland, but I wonder if their intention was to bring in a female with an infant as a behavioural model for Susie and Sally (which sadly backfired, alas). I notice that, with the Bornean orangutans, measures were taken to make sure Dara and Horst, also half-siblings, were separated so that they didn't breed again.

 

[Zoofan15]

I too am surprised that Taronga sent a female related to Mike to Auckland, but I wonder if their intention was to bring in a female with an infant as a behavioural model for Susie and Sally (which sadly backfired, alas). I notice that, with the Bornean orangutans, measures were taken to make sure Dara and Horst, also half-siblings, were separated so that they didn't breed again.

That’s entirely possible. Loanda was only two months old and it would have given Suzie and Sally first hand experience at watching maternal care of a newborn. I believe it was hoped that Mike knowing Lucy would have protected Loanda, but sadly it didn’t. Christine noted on The Zoo programme that Mike and Lucy were a close pair, even before they came from Auckland, so that might have influenced the decision also.

Mike and Lucy’s mothers (Lulu and Mary) integrated into Taronga’s community around a decade after the other founder females and in the early years, there may have been a close association between the families. Mary was chosen as one of the first four chimpanzees to be reintroduced to Lulu and her family, following their isolation from the community in 1983 while Lulu tended to her newborn twins. Sadly that didn’t go well either.

Yes, the rotation of the male orangutans at Auckland Zoo was scheduled to ensure Charlie and Dara bred together when she conceived Darli in late 1999.

 

[ApeLadyNZ]

That’s entirely possible. Loanda was only two months old and it would have given Suzie and Sally first hand experience at watching maternal care of a newborn. I believe it was hoped that Mike knowing Lucy would have protected Loanda, but sadly it didn’t. Christine noted on The Zoo programme that Mike and Lucy were a close pair, even before they came from Auckland, so that might have influenced the decision also.

Mike and Lucy’s mothers (Lulu and Mary) integrated into Taronga’s community around a decade after the other founder females and in the early years, there may have been a close association between the families. Mary was chosen as one of the first four chimpanzees to be reintroduced to Lulu and her family, following their isolation from the community in 1983 while Lulu tended to her newborn twins. Sadly that didn’t go well either.

Yes, the rotation of the male orangutans at Auckland Zoo was scheduled to ensure Charlie and Dara bred together when she conceived Darli in late 1999.

I've read about Mary and her violent streak on this community, and it seems likely that Mike inherited her disposition. It's unfortunate that neither Loanda nor Darli survived, for both would, no doubt, have been valuable breeding females for chimpanzees and orangutans, respectively.

 

[Zoofan15]

I've read about Mary and her violent streak on this community, and it seems likely that Mike inherited her disposition. It's unfortunate that neither Loanda nor Darli survived, for both would, no doubt, have been valuable breeding females for chimpanzees and orangutans, respectively.

Loanda would have been invaluable in shifting the dynamics of Auckland’s troop. They were clearly happy to maintain a troop of six due to space reasons and the gender ratio of 3.3 caused aggression problems. A troop of 2.4 (assuming Lucy’s second infant was still a male) would have been much calmer. Long term, I imagine Loanda would have gone to Wellington Zoo - probably around 2004 when the troop moved to Hamilton Zoo. This would also have been a suitable time to bring in Chima, who was at the dispersal age.

Darli would have probably gone to the US had she survived. She would have been nine years old when the first export took place and desirable to the breeding programme due to Charlie’s genetics. They haven’t made a lot of use out of Horst and Indra, which surprises me as Horst was noted to be genetically valuable also (at least within the US population).

 

[ApeLadyNZ]

Loanda would have been invaluable in shifting the dynamics of Auckland’s troop. They were clearly happy to maintain a troop of six due to space reasons and the gender ratio of 3.3 caused aggression problems. A troop of 2.4 (assuming Lucy’s second infant was still a male) would have been much calmer. Long term, I imagine Loanda would have gone to Wellington Zoo - probably around 2004 when the troop moved to Hamilton Zoo. This would also have been a suitable time to bring in Chima, who was at the dispersal age.

Darli would have probably gone to the US had she survived. She would have been nine years old when the first export took place and desirable to the breeding programme due to Charlie’s genetics. They haven’t made a lot of use out of Horst and Indra, which surprises me as Horst was noted to be genetically valuable also (at least within the US population).

Definitely - both young females would have been very valuable indeed. And I too am surprised not much was done with Horst and Indra in Florida - did they ever breed again after moving to the USA, or did Busch Gardens decide to focus on Madju and Luna Bella?

Unless Sanda gives birth again, I don't see the Hamilton troop expanding soon since the introduction of Chima proved disastrous. When Chiku and Kendi mature, what I'd like to see is them go to Wellington Zoo and then the import of new chimps to Hamilton, although they would likely have to wait for the passing of Lucifer and Luka to bring in more males.

 

[Zoofan15]

Definitely - both young females would have been very valuable indeed. And I too am surprised not much was done with Horst and Indra in Florida - did they ever breed again after moving to the USA, or did Busch Gardens decide to focus on Madju and Luna Bella?

Unless Sanda gives birth again, I don't see the Hamilton troop expanding soon since the introduction of Chima proved disastrous. When Chiku and Kendi mature, what I'd like to see is them go to Hamilton Zoo and then the import of new chimps to Hamilton, although they would likely have to wait for the passing of Lucifer and Luka to bring in more males.

Of the US exports, Horst and Indra have never bred; while Intan was transferred to a facility for breeding, but sadly died in 2011. She was only 22 years of age. Isim and Gangsa reportedly had an infant, which did not survive; while Madju sired a son, who passed away as a juvenile.

I agree the transfer of Chiku and Kendi to Wellington makes sense, especially if Sanda has a third daughter. Even if she produces a son, there could potentially be the option to bring in another male if they’re introduced to each other around the age of seven or eight. It would depend on whether Luka and Lucifer are still around by then.

 

[ApeLadyNZ]

Of the US exports, Horst and Indra have never bred; while Intan was transferred to a facility for breeding, but sadly died in 2011. She was only 22 years of age. Isim and Gangsa reportedly had an infant, which did not survive; while Madju sired a son, who passed away as a juvenile.

I agree the transfer of Chiku and Kendi to Wellington makes sense, especially if Sanda has a third daughter. Even if she produces a son, there could potentially be the option to bring in another male if they’re introduced to each other around the age of seven or eight. It would depend on whether Luka and Lucifer are still around by then.

It will be interesting to see if Sanda will breed again - it's not impossible as older females have gone on to have healthy infants and she has done well with Chiku and Kendi, even given her late second chance to breed.

Hopefully we will see Madju sire another infant. I did read somewhere - possibly Orangutan SSP on Facebook - that Busch Gardens recently decided not to breed from Horst and Indra again, which is puzzling.

 

[Zoofan15]

It will be interesting to see if Sanda will breed again - it's not impossible as older females have gone on to have healthy infants and she has done well with Chiku and Kendi, even given her late second chance to breed.

Hopefully we will see Madju sire another infant. I did read somewhere - possibly Orangutan SSP on Facebook - that Busch Gardens recently decided not to breed from Horst and Indra again, which is puzzling.

Kendi turns three this month, so Sanda should resume cycling again soon. She’s 38 years old, so could easily produce one more infant. Shiba at Taronga Zoo gave birth to Safiri at the age of 38 years; and Lisa gave birth to Lemba this year aged 43 years, so I would be optimistic of Sanda being successful. Considering her genetic value (and Luka’s via his paternal line), I’d say it’s a strong likelihood.

It’d be really interesting to know if Shiba was sired by Mike before he left for Auckland Zoo. Taronga’s alpha male was eliminated as her sire; and while the beta male was the probable candidate, Mike was never discounted. If so, it’d mean Mary is better represented than first thought.

Indra is 43 years now, so it’d be wise not to breed from her again. She had her last infant at the age of 13 years, so they’ve had plenty of time to breed from her if they’d wanted to. Everything they never did is done, so to speak.

 

[ApeLadyNZ]

Kendi turns three this month, so Sanda should resume cycling again soon. She’s 38 years old, so could easily produce one more infant. Shiba at Taronga Zoo gave birth to Safiri at the age of 38 years; and Lisa gave birth to Lemba this year aged 43 years, so I would be optimistic of Sanda being successful. Considering her genetic value (and Luka’s via his paternal line), I’d say it’s a strong likelihood.

It’d be really interesting to know if Shiba was sired by Mike before he left for Auckland Zoo. Taronga’s alpha male was eliminated as her sire; and while the beta male was the probable candidate, Mike was never discounted. If so, it’d mean Mary is better represented than first thought.

Indra is 43 years now, so it’d be wise not to breed from her again. She had her last infant at the age of 13 years, so they’ve had plenty of time to breed from her if they’d wanted to. Everything they never did is done, so to speak.

I would like to see Sanda produce another infant, ideally another female but a male would also be of great value and a future troop could be founded around him once Lucifer and Luka pass on.

It would make sense that Busch Gardens didn't breed from an aging Indra again, although even older female orangutans have given birth to healthy infants, the most notable being 46-year-old Dodie of Gladys Porter Zoo (she must be considered very genetically valuable if the zoo decided to breed her at that age!)

I heard that when Luna Bella was introduced to Horst at Busch Gardens, she didn't take to him at all, necessitating the import of Madju who she did bond with. So perhaps they just decided to proceed with those two for the breeding programme.

It would be great if Shiba was indeed sired by Mike and that his line is better represented!

 

[Zoofan15]

I would like to see Sanda produce another infant, ideally another female but a male would also be of great value and a future troop could be founded around him once Lucifer and Luka pass on.

It would make sense that Busch Gardens didn't breed from an aging Indra again, although even older female orangutans have given birth to healthy infants, the most notable being 46-year-old Dodie of Gladys Porter Zoo (she must be considered very genetically valuable if the zoo decided to breed her at that age!)

I heard that when Luna Bella was introduced to Horst at Busch Gardens, she didn't take to him at all, necessitating the import of Madju who she did bond with. So perhaps they just decided to proceed with those two for the breeding programme.

It would be great if Shiba was indeed sired by Mike and that his line is better represented!

Another daughter from Luka and Sanda would be better as that would allow them to bring in 3-4 males when Luka and Lucifer pass; but if everything aligns, they could potentially bring in a second male (when both are adolescents) if they produce a son. It’ll be interesting to see how Rockhampton’s introductions of a castrated male to the 15 year old alpha male go, as this has never been done before. Ultimately it depends also on Hamilton’s intentions around increasing their troop size.

That’s interesting Luna-Bella never took to Horst. Females typically prefer fully flanged males and Indra and Intan both preferred Horst to Charlie.