Australasian Sumatran Tiger Population

[Tiger91]

Dreamworld have the following generic tigers:

1.0 Pi (19/07/2010) Hari x Louise
0.1 Kali (02/11/2015) Imported 2016
0.1 Kiko (02/11/2015) Imported 2016
0.1 Adira (29/11/2015) Raja x Nika
1.0 Javi (26/04/2019) Pi x Adira
1.0 Zakari (26/04/2019) Pi x Adira
1.0 Khan (25/05/2019) Raja x Nika

Even under the classification you refer to, they’re hybrids as all except for Kali and Kiko (white tigers) are descended from either Hari or Raja (purebred Sumatran tigers). Prior to siring several cubs to the hybrid Nika, Raja sired five purebred Sumatran cubs to Soraya at Dreamworld, two of which remain there to this day (Jaya and Shanti).

Oh right I wasn't sure which generics were still there, outside of the white tigers. At one point most of there generics had no sumatran in them. It was an odd decision to breed Raja with Nike.

It’s frustrating they didn’t take the opportunity to breed the Indonesian imports (Bashi, Kaitlyn and Maneki) with other founders.

Personally, I would have liked to have seen the following paired:

1.0 Bashi (2007) and 0.1 Binjai (2002)

1.0 Bashi (2007) and 0.1 Soraya (2002)

1.0 Tuan (1998) and 0.1 Kaitlyn (2007)

1.0 Raja (2003) and 0.1 Kaitlyn (2007)

1.0 Oz (2004) and 0.1 Maneki (2007)

That’s a total of five litters, which is what the Indonesian imports produced between them (four of which were sired by Nico/Meta descendants).

Imagine the uses for the cubs of those pairings!

Who ever made that decision should of been replaced immediately. Not only did they mix a Nico meta descendant but a tiger that had already sired two litters. Further reducing the genetic ability of the imported tigers.

The matches made above would have created tigers that would have been sought after in all managed programs. Due to the need for increasing the gene pool of sumatrans overall.

 

[Zoofan15]

Personally, I would have liked to have seen the following paired:

1.0 Bashi (2007) and 0.1 Binjai (2002)

1.0 Bashi (2007) and 0.1 Soraya (2002)

1.0 Tuan (1998) and 0.1 Kaitlyn (2007)

1.0 Raja (2003) and 0.1 Kaitlyn (2007)

1.0 Oz (2004) and 0.1 Maneki (2007)

That’s a total of five litters, which is what the Indonesian imports produced between them (four of which were sired by Nico/Meta descendants).

Imagine the uses for the cubs of those pairings!

The matches made above would have created tigers that would have been sought after in all managed programs. Due to the need for increasing the gene pool of sumatrans overall.

Yes, the five matches I suggested would have also been of great value for export to North America, who would surely desire offspring from the Indonesian imports.

While a number of the pairings throughout the 2000’s and 2010’s left us baffled, two I really rated were:

Raja and Soraya: This pairing represented the only successful pairing of two non-Nico/Meta descendants since 1990. It produced five daughters, who between them were paired with four males (Berani, Satu, Aceh and Kembali). If only they’d had a son!

Tuan and Assiqua: Assiqua was transferred to Adelaide Zoo to be paired with Tuan in the late 2000’s. Sadly Assiuqa never conceived due to reproductive issues, but like Raja and Soraya, this pairing would have produced some valuable cubs.

 

[Tigergal]

Mogo Wildlife Park has posted a video of Mattai to their socials. They’ve confirmed via email that this is Indra’s brother and he’s on display near the viewing platform and that it’s indeed Mattai. He's listed in the population list as Mati. I’m curious as to where this discrepancy has come from!

 

[Abbey]

Mogo Wildlife Park has posted a video of Mattai to their socials. They’ve confirmed via email that this is Indra’s brother and he’s on display near the viewing platform and that it’s indeed Mattai. He's listed in the population list as Mati. I’m curious as to where this discrepancy has come from!

I'm obviously not the population list author, but I'd honestly say it's just a difference in spelling or a typo. From my experience, sometimes zoos will spell their animals' names different ways, or have nicknames for the animals. I gather that some animal names also have a variety of spellings if the alphabet of the language they originate from isn't the same as the alphabet used in English. I'm confident @Zoofan15 won't mind changing the spelling in the future where needed, but I think we're all on the same page that this is indeed the same tiger.

 

[Zoofan15]

Mogo Wildlife Park has posted a video of Mattai to their socials. They’ve confirmed via email that this is Indra’s brother and he’s on display near the viewing platform and that it’s indeed Mattai. He's listed in the population list as Mati. I’m curious as to where this discrepancy has come from!

I'm obviously not the population list author, but I'd honestly say it's just a difference in spelling or a typo. From my experience, sometimes zoos will spell their animals' names different ways, or have nicknames for the animals. I gather that some animal names also have a variety of spellings if the alphabet of the language they originate from isn't the same as the alphabet used in English. I'm confident @Zoofan15 won't mind changing the spelling in the future where needed, but I think we're all on the same page that this is indeed the same tiger.

I obviously saw it spelt as Mati at some point, as there’s reference going back to 2017 of me spelling it as Mati on here. Mogo changed ownership a few years ago and it’s been consistently spelt as Mattai since then, so I’m happy to change it next time I post the population thread.

In any case, he isn’t a tiger that comes up in conversation a lot considering he and his brother have remained at Mogo and have never been paired with mates for breeding. With Soraya’s daughters now well past their reproductive prime, it appears her line will end in the region once her offspring pass on. Soraya was the daughter of Morris and Santana, who are apparently very well represented across Europe.

 

[Tigergal]

I'm obviously not the population list author, but I'd honestly say it's just a difference in spelling or a typo. From my experience, sometimes zoos will spell their animals' names different ways, or have nicknames for the animals. I gather that some animal names also have a variety of spellings if the alphabet of the language they originate from isn't the same as the alphabet used in English. I'm confident @Zoofan15 won't mind changing the spelling in the future where needed, but I think we're all on the same page that this is indeed the same tiger.

I obviously saw it spelt as Mati at some point, as there’s reference going back to 2017 of me spelling it as Mati on here. Mogo changed ownership a few years ago and it’s been consistently spelt as Mattai since then, so I’m happy to change it next time I post the population thread.

In any case, he isn’t a tiger that comes up in conversation a lot considering he and his brother have remained at Mogo and have never been paired with mates for breeding. With Soraya’s daughters now well past their reproductive prime, it appears her line will end in the region once her offspring pass on. Soraya was the daughter of Morris and Santana, who are apparently very well represented across Europe.

I agree that it’s the same tiger we’re talking about, and was more so curious if it was changed with a change with management as Zoofan mentioned or something else. Apologies if I’ve caused any offence

 

[Jambo]

In any case, he isn’t a tiger that comes up in conversation a lot considering he and his brother have remained at Mogo and have never been paired with mates for breeding. With Soraya’s daughters now well past their reproductive prime, it appears her line will end in the region once her offspring pass on. Soraya was the daughter of Morris and Santana, who are apparently very well represented across Europe.

I do wonder if that's why only a few of her daughters ended up in breeding situations. Only Ndari, Rahni and Soraya were ever placed in breeding situations but even then two of them were only given the green light far too late imo. Ndari was still not introduced to Aceh in 2016 (aged nine), and similarly Soraya only begun her introductions with Bashi in 2018 (aged eight).

To continue Soraya's line within the region, I think it's important they consider one of her son's with Lari (Mati or Indra).

 

[Zoofan15]

I do wonder if that's why only a few of her daughters ended up in breeding situations. Only Ndari, Rahni and Senja were ever placed in breeding situations but even then two of them were only given the green light far too late imo. Ndari was still not introduced to Aceh in 2016 (aged nine), and similarly Senja only begun her introductions with Bashi in 2018 (aged eight).

To continue Soraya's line within the region, I think it's important they consider one of her son's with Lari (Mati or Indra).

It’s a shame because in Rahni’s case, she wasn’t even introduced to her intended mate (Berani), because he passed early on in the introduction period. She was apparently replaced by her sister Ndari to give them more time (Ndari was 15 months younger) to achieve a successful introduction, noting it could take up to 18 months.

The introduction of Bashi and Senja was taken so slowly, they didn’t even meet face to face before the plug was pulled (due to Senja’s immunotherapy). It’s a shame because whenever I visit, there’s so much interest/positive interactions between the pair through the fence line. I’ve heard nothing to suggest Bashi is an aggressive male.

I agree pairing one of Soraya’s sons makes sense. There’s traditionally been a preference to breed from the furthest back generation (e.g. the sons of Shiva and Selatan in the 2010’s), so their generation is next in line so to speak. It’s a shame as it looks like Binjai’s line will be lost from the region unless Aceh is re-paired. Her daughters are too old for breeding now.

 

[Jambo]

It’s a shame because in Rahni’s case, she wasn’t even introduced to her intended mate (Berani), because he passed early on in the introduction period. She was apparently replaced by her sister Ndari to give them more time (Ndari was 15 months younger) to achieve a successful introduction, noting it could take up to 18 months.

The introduction of Bashi and Senja was taken so slowly, they didn’t even meet face to face before the plug was pulled (due to Senja’s immunotherapy). It’s a shame because whenever I visit, there’s so much interest/positive interactions between the pair through the fence line. I’ve heard nothing to suggest Bashi is an aggressive male.

I agree pairing one of Soraya’s sons makes sense. There’s traditionally been a preference to breed from the furthest back generation (e.g. the sons of Shiva and Selatan in the 2010’s), so their generation is next in line so to speak. It’s a shame as it looks like Binjai’s line will be lost from the region unless Aceh is re-paired. Her daughters are too old for breeding now.

It's really weird that Bashi hasn't been re-paired. You'd assume the fact that he's an unrepresented founder would make him justifiably one of the most valuable males within the region, let alone worldwide. I wonder if there's something we don't know that's keeping him from being re-paired.

Re-pairing Aceh and either of Soraya's sons should be priorities imo. Hopefully with females acquired from overseas, otherwise the only viable females at the moment being the four young females at Taronga and Australia. For Aceh, Sallie and Sage at Australia would be a better pairing being unrelated to him.

 

[Zoofan15]

Update on Hamilton Zoo’s Cubs

A few updates on Hamilton Zoo’s litter:

Hamilton tiger cubs turning into chunky monkeys

The cubs (now a week old) will undergo a health check at two weeks of age, with the curator hopeful of finding out what sex they are. Decisions on naming the cubs will follow.

The cubs won’t be introduced to their father, Scout, face to face; but will have contact through the fence line.

The cubs will go on display at 10-12 weeks, with a video link to their den set up in the next week outside the exhibit.

The cubs will remain at Hamilton Zoo for at least two years, with recommendations from the regional coordinator determining their destination from there (a non-breeding placement at an Australian zoo is likely imo).

 

[Jambo]

The cubs will remain at Hamilton Zoo for at least two years, with recommendations from the regional coordinator determining their destination from there (a non-breeding placement at an Australian zoo is likely imo).

Especially when you consider the genetic value of both parents, I'm certain this will be the only time Scout and Kirana will be paired for breeding. Especially with Adelaide having a genetically identical pairing.

With ageing tigers, it's likely a lot of places will open up in the coming years. But it's exciting as we'll probably see more facilities breeding again.

 

[Zoofan15]

It's really weird that Bashi hasn't been re-paired. You'd assume the fact that he's an unrepresented founder would make him justifiably one of the most valuable males within the region, let alone worldwide. I wonder if there's something we don't know that's keeping him from being re-paired.

Re-pairing Aceh and either of Soraya's sons should be priorities imo. Hopefully with females acquired from overseas, otherwise the only viable females at the moment being the four young females at Taronga and Australia. For Aceh, Sallie and Sage at Australia would be a better pairing being unrelated to him.

Bashi would be the most genetically valuable male in the region, followed by Reggie at Orana Wildlife Park. Considering the young age of Auckland Zoo’s young pair when they were imported in 2022, I even wondered if it would have been worth pairing Bashi and Zayana for one litter; with Ramah held at Wellington Zoo for a couple of years.

I’m guessing the plan for Reggie is to receive a young female from Auckland Zoo’s first litter. He’s eight years old this year, so time is still on his side.

I feel like we’re at the point where imports from overseas would be advantageous. A lot of emphasis is on Ramah and Zayana to produce mates for our region’s tigers, but then new imports will be needed for the next generation. Import now and set the region up for building a more sustainable population long term.

 

[Zoofan15]

Especially when you consider the genetic value of both parents, I'm certain this will be the only time Scout and Kirana will be paired for breeding. Especially with Adelaide having a genetically identical pairing.

With ageing tigers, it's likely a lot of places will open up in the coming years. But it's exciting as we'll probably see more facilities breeding again.

100%. I similarly don’t expect Adelaide Zoo to breed again anytime soon. Their decision to build a third tiger exhibit is as much about accomodating those cubs into adulthood from what they’ve said. If Hamilton’s litter consists of two females, that’s a strong case for them remaining together as cohesive pair versus Adelaide’s young male, which could transfer somewhere else.

Interesting times ahead! I hope Dreamworld cease breeding hybrids; which combined with the hybrids at Sydney and Ballarat being replaced with purebred Sumatran tigers upon their passing, will increase our regional holding capacity. With the recent births, there’s certainly no lack of tigers (which was apparently the reason for Sydney and Ballarat taking on hybrids).

 

[Tiger91]

Genetically bashi isn't that unique as he is a full sibling to Kaitlyn who has a decent amount of decendants within the region now. So for breeding here in our region, his use is limited. Annnnd due to very poor collection planning by the stud book all of Kaitlyns offspring are not genetically that valuable here either due to there level of relatedness on there fathers side.

Of memory population genetics works of full siblings/genetically the same siblings as the value 1. While trying to produce tigers or breed tigers that have a score as close to 0 as possible. If bashi was paired with a tiger related to the mates of Kaitlyn or closely related to her offspring. his offspring and her offspring would be considered to close to 1 to be of any use, to each other or there offspring. Even tho they are descendants from founders. Which is most likely why we are seeing a baby boom and him not being utilised.

The best option for him is to be sent overseas or an import of an unrelated tiger to pair with him.

 

[Zoofan15]

Genetically bashi isn't that unique as he is a full sibling to Kaitlyn who has a decent amount of decendants within the region now. So for breeding here in our region, his use is limited. Annnnd due to very poor collection planning by the stud book all of Kaitlyns offspring are not genetically that valuable here either due to there level of relatedness on there fathers side.

Of memory population genetics works of full siblings/genetically the same siblings as the value 1. While trying to produce tigers or breed tigers that have a score as close to 0 as possible. If bashi was paired with a tiger related to the mates of Kaitlyn or closely related to her offspring. his offspring and her offspring would be considered to close to 1 to be of any use, to each other or there offspring. Even tho they are descendants from founders. Which is most likely why we are seeing a baby boom and him not being utilised.

The best option for him is to be sent overseas or an import of an unrelated tiger to pair with him.

I often relate this dilemma to Juara and Ramalon, who were full siblings like Bashi and Kaitlyn. Taronga’s latest pairing consists of Juara’s grandaughter and Ramalon’s son, which was apparently considered genetically diverse enough to be considered acceptable (due to the input of unrelated tigers to those tigers at each subsequent generation).

I therefore see value in breeding from Bashi, but to tigers unrelated to those paired with his siblings; otherwise, like you say, the match is essentially replicated. The pairing of Kembali and Kirana (littermates) with Scout and Delilah (littermates) is an example of one such double up, that generates cubs with little to no application to the breeding programme.

Bashi has recently turned 16 years old, so is arguably too old to be exported to a zoo outside the region. It’s a shame as he could of been of great use to North America or Europe.

 

[Tiger91]

I often relate this dilemma to Juara and Ramalon, who were full siblings like Bashi and Kaitlyn. Taronga’s latest pairing consists of Juara’s grandaughter and Ramalon’s son, which was apparently considered genetically diverse enough to be considered acceptable (due to the input of unrelated tigers to those tigers at each subsequent generation).

I therefore see value in breeding from Bashi, but to tigers unrelated to those paired with his siblings; otherwise, like you say, the match is essentially replicated. The pairing of Kembali and Kirana (littermates) with Scout and Delilah (littermates) is an example of one such double up, that generates cubs with little to no application to the breeding programme.

Bashi has recently turned 16 years old, so is arguably too old to be exported to a zoo outside the region. It’s a shame as he could of been of great use to North America or Europe.

I wonder if kembali and kirana with scout and Delilah has occurred due to there being a lack of sumatrans for the private zoos that want them. So the ok was given with the intent of producing non breeding display tigers. Adelaide especially wanted cubs for the revenue.

Ideally a bashi and zayana pairing with a daughter then bred to ramah would have been an ideal route to take. It would have established a new line, with the decendants of the pairing of a daughter and ramah being genetically distant enough. That descendants from Kaitlyns cubs would be able to be bred together. Vastly increasing genetic variability.

 

[Zoofan15]

I wonder if kembali and kirana with scout and Delilah has occurred due to there being a lack of sumatrans for the private zoos that want them. So the ok was given with the intent of producing non breeding display tigers. Adelaide especially wanted cubs for the revenue.

Ideally a bashi and zayana pairing with a daughter then bred to ramah would have been an ideal route to take. It would have established a new line, with the decendants of the pairing of a daughter and ramah being genetically distant enough. That descendants from Kaitlyns cubs would be able to be bred together. Vastly increasing genetic variability.

I would assume there was some interest in continuing the line of Oz, following the failure of his son to breed at Darling Downs Zoo. The double up could well be for the purpose of supplying any one of the zoos in the region that hold ageing tigers (Perth, Tasmania etc), that wish to continue as a non-breeding holder of Sumatrans. Sydney Zoo will again be at a cross-roads once their hybrids (born 2007) pass on.

It would have been good to have seen Bashi and Zayana paired for breeding. Pairing Bashi with either Soraya or Binjai would have also been advantageous imo.

 

[Zoofan15]

The current tiger population (3 animals) was described as a comfortable holding capacity. Up to 6 tigers have been held in the past, which was aided by some of these animals being in a family group. The issue with holding more tigers (especially multiple males) is moving the animals between enclosures safely, given there are only two on-display exhibit and the other holding areas are functional BOH cages. Satu, Indah and Sakti are all alive and well.

Thanks for asking about the holding capacity! Its super interesting to hear what they actually have back of house and what their capacity is. It will be interesting to see what they do moving forward as the current tigers age out.

In that case, I imagine Dubbo will allow at least one their ageing cats to pass, before taking on more tigers. Due to the size of their exhibits, they’d be better utilised by a family group; but even then, they’d have to account for the fact there’s no guarantee cohesive social groupings will remain cohesive long term.

Long term, I’d say there’s a reasonable likelihood of Taronga tigers transferring there. Perhaps the two sisters from the 2019 litter, who can hopefully remain together long term. If at least one of the three older tigers at Taronga (Kembali, Kartika and Clarence) could also transfer out (either to Dubbo or a non-breeding holder), that would see Taronga Zoo well placed to receive a female for breeding with Pemanah. A female from Auckland’s pair would appear his best match.

 

[Tiger91]

In that case, I imagine Dubbo will allow at least one their ageing cats to pass, before taking on more tigers. Due to the size of their exhibits, they’d be better utilised by a family group; but even then, they’d have to account for the fact there’s no guarantee cohesive social groupings will remain cohesive long term.

Long term, I’d say there’s a reasonable likelihood of Taronga tigers transferring there. Perhaps the two sisters from the 2019 litter, who can hopefully remain together long term. If at least one of the three older tigers at Taronga (Kembali, Kartika and Clarence) could also transfer out (either to Dubbo or a non-breeding holder), that would see Taronga Zoo well placed to receive a female for breeding with Pemanah. A female from Auckland’s pair would appear his best match.

Taronga does seem to like having their family legacy with their tigers. So id imagine you're close to the money on their plans. It does sound like they are quite content with what they have. And taronga's site has the space to accomodate what they currently have quite easily.
I don't see them transferring tigers any time soon, they are a popular attraction. There exhibits are great and its very easy to see a tiger when you visit as they usually have multiple on exhibit at once. Especially with kartika's and her youngs love for climbing the fig tree.

 

[Zoofan15]

Taronga does seem to like having their family legacy with their tigers. So id imagine you're close to the money on their plans. It does sound like they are quite content with what they have. And taronga's site has the space to accomodate what they currently have quite easily.
I don't see them transferring tigers any time soon, they are a popular attraction. There exhibits are great and its very easy to see a tiger when you visit as they usually have multiple on exhibit at once. Especially with kartika's and her youngs love for climbing the fig tree.

Taronga Zoo are very proud of their Sumatran tiger dynasty as they often refer to it, with Nico and Meta being the most prolific founder pair in the region.

It would have been really interesting to see how things would have panned out had they imported the pair from Rangunan Zoo, who would supposedly only be loaned to Taronga Zoo for five years. I imagine a flurry of breeding recommendations would have followed, with them welcoming three litters in succession - which would have then been dispersed to other zoos within the region. Presumably, one of them would have remained at Taronga (and a Nico/Meta descendant sourced); but that pair would have effectively become the Nico and Meta of the modern age.