Almost every post I make on this forum in trying to reply to someone else's post you swoop in before them with your opinion first then I rarely get a reply from them because you're in with your expert opinion. You need to stop this in fact I would be happy if you don't reply to any of my posts from now. Thank you sir.
Australian Asian Elephant Population 2025
- Thread starter Zoofan15
- Start date
Well said @steveroberts. It’s inevitable people will have different ideas and opinions.
That’s a really good question. My instinct is say Putra Mas. He’s the bull they have on site, he’s genetically valuable (even within the global captive population) and he’s trained for AI. Those are three good reasons to undertake AI with him - likely off the back of a breeding recommendation between him and Pak Boon for natural breeding.
Furthermore, if they get a daughter out of Putra Mas, the sooner they can progress to natural breeding with said daughter and an unrelated bull.
Undertaking AI with Pak Boon and another bull (i.e. not Putra Mas) in the hope she’d have a daughter, who would then breed with Putra Mas simply delays the inevitable.
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Yeah right ok that makes sense. Personally didnt realise until late last year that Putra Mas's had succeeded in mating with Permai in '04 or '05 so although 20 years ago some good hope for Pak Boon with him hey (well ai to 'fall back on' too).
It's so good that Permai is there safe and sound now, the new video of her the keepers shared was so lovely. And seeing the footage of Burma out in one of her paddocks too looking very happy.
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Luke899
Well-Known Member
Wait am I reading this correctly? Putra Mas will breed with his own daughter?
Know its not my post to reply to but Zoofan' meant a potential daughter of Pak Boon and Putra Mas could then hopefully breed with another male elephant in Australia (at Western Plains or Werribee or one of the Sydney Zoo duo) in the future, if a potential male could be brought into Monarto for breeding (attempt) visit or better yet to live at Monarto too in the mid-term future, would be best option.
Not an ai sired female calf to Pak Boon who in turn would be trialled at breeding with Putra Mas in ten+ (more like 15+) years when Putra Mas would be middle aged. -- was saying this latter idea here should very much be plan B or C.
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Luke899
Well-Known Member
Haha yes that sounds more like it. I think there's a natural scent or hormone which discourages inbreeding in the wild.
Yeah I figured was just misreading, I do it all the time. Thats fascinating (and brilliant) about the scent or hormone which discourages inbreeding, what an revolutionary evolutionary natural inbreeding deterrent. Really beneficial natural phenomenem for elephants to have on their side with genetic health for their ongoing future(s) of existence.
You’re correct about pheromones being recognised by Asian elephants; but rather these relate both to receptivity in females and musth in males. Young bulls can differentiate between the urine of males in musth and males not in musth and avoid the former.
Inbreeding can (and does) occur in the wild and has occurred in captivity as well - Hari being an example of this at Chester Zoo.
For sure, I’m really excited to see photos of the complex once opened and how the designs have translated into real life.
If this were to be the case I'd assume they'd have to resort to AI. Although it's worth mentioning Pak Boon's never been artificially inseminated as of yet to my knowledge. AI with Putra Mas has proved successful in the past so I don't see why they won't utilise him again in that scenario, especially considering his genetic value.
In the unlikely case they don't wish to use AI, there's a lot of ways they could go. They could chose to bring in an unproven bull (like Pathi Harn or the Sydney bulls). A calf from either of the Sydney brothers and Pak Boon would be especially valuable to the region. Another scenario is Dubbo choses to send Gung away in favour of acquiring one of the Sydney bulls. Gung would be a proven bull and has mated Pak Boon in the past. He is, however, quite well represented and this may minimise Pak Boon's chances of getting recommendations for multiple calves.
This is so great and heartwarming to see <3 Perth Zoo on Instagram: "A small step for an elephant, a giant step for the regional elephant herd. Permai's first steps into her forever home at @zoossa's Monarto Safari Park."
(Permai's first steps at her new forever home at Monarto (source instagram.com-PerthZoo and instagram.com-ZoosSA).mp4 as secondary link)
(Permai's first steps at her new forever home at Monarto (source instagram.com-PerthZoo and instagram.com-ZoosSA).mp4 as secondary link)
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Burma and Permai have met for the first time
From their newsletter
"Late yesterday, both elephants showed signs that they were interested in interacting, and while Burma was a little shy at first, they came together to say hello through mesh contact.
Both elephants displayed curiosity and gentle behaviours towards each other, which is a great first step towards further interactions in the future.
This milestone is testament to the dedication and expertise of both the Monarto Safari Park and Perth Zoo animal care teams, who have worked tirelessly to ensure both elephants' comfort and wellbeing during this transition.
Stay tuned for more jumbo updates on what we hope is the start of a beautiful friendship!"
From their newsletter
"Late yesterday, both elephants showed signs that they were interested in interacting, and while Burma was a little shy at first, they came together to say hello through mesh contact.
Both elephants displayed curiosity and gentle behaviours towards each other, which is a great first step towards further interactions in the future.
This milestone is testament to the dedication and expertise of both the Monarto Safari Park and Perth Zoo animal care teams, who have worked tirelessly to ensure both elephants' comfort and wellbeing during this transition.
Stay tuned for more jumbo updates on what we hope is the start of a beautiful friendship!"
That sounds like a really encouraging start to the introductions.
The overwhelming majority of introductions in our region’s zoos have been that of a juvenile or adolescent female/females to adult or even senior females, who are less likely to see them as a threat, so introducing two senior females (and then an additional bonded pair of adult females) will certainly be a fascinating insight into herd dynamics and the introduction process.
Jaiden
Well-Known Member
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
It would be such a monumentally stupid idea to not use AI, it would be complete negligence of behalf of the management of the program. He is virtually unrepresented, and she is unrepresented. Even two bull calves would be worth more then not using them. Each bull would have application at both western plains and Werribee.
Pak Boon is the most valuable cow in the region and Monarto are apparently intending to breed (as we suspected all along), so I’d be surprised if they didn’t have a back up plan in mind should Putra Mas fail to breed her naturally.
@Jambo makes an excellent point about AI not being undertaken with Pak Boon before. Although there’s no reason to believe this was for any other reason than they had a bull on site to naturally mate her, it should be noted that some cows are uncomfortable with this invasive procedure. This was the case for Burma, when AI was investigated at Auckland Zoo as a means for her to conceive (in her younger years).
I’m tempted to say the best back up option to AI is bringing in Gung or Pathi Harn. The Dublin bulls cohabit together and transferring one out (even on loan) could disrupt their bond. Gung is a proven, capable breeder and Sabai could remain at Dubbo to cover Kanlaya in the future.
I did the elephant encounter at Sydney Zoo two months ago and was told that that Kavi and Ashoka are spending a lot less time together and they were open to transferring them for breeding in the future. There were no immediate plans but suggested they would like to become a place where males can be rotated through to help manage breeding at others zoos. They did admit all this is up in the air while the transitions at Werribee and Monarto settle.
It was also interesting when they were discussing the bulls musth, they said Permai holds the record for musth in the region, with one of his recorded periods of musth lasting for 7-8 months.
It was also interesting when they were discussing the bulls musth, they said Permai holds the record for musth in the region, with one of his recorded periods of musth lasting for 7-8 months.
Absolutely agree as I stated in my post it should be on stand by its not as if Monarto zoo has other cows as breeding options it all rests on the one female.
It’s easy to see one of Sydney’s bulls becoming Werribee’s next breeding bull after Luk Chai sires a second cohort of calves to Dokkoon, Num-Oi and Mali once they’re settled into the new complex. The only other options are Luk Chai’s brother and father; Pathi Harn (half brother of Mali); or Putra Mas (unknown breeding capabilities).
That’s interesting to hear about Putra Mas’ long musth cycle, but not unexpected given he’s reached his prime in the era recording data from musth cycles would have been standard husbandry practice (versus past bulls like Heman). Luk Chai was in moda musth (adolescent musth cycle) on my last visit to Melbourne and photos from socials indicate Pathi Harn has begun this too. Gung initially had very erratic musth cycles (including three short ones in a single year) in his teens, which is typical of adolescent/young adult bulls.