Australian Elephant Debate

[Kifaru Bwana]

Hi fellow esteemed forumsters,

Well, here it is then ... my kick-off ... for the ethic and philosophy debate surrounding the entire Australian elephant breeding programme. Whereas this discussion started more or less around Taronga Zoo elephant exhibit, I assume that it has a much wider scope in that it concerns the entire Australian elephant breeding programme as a going concern.

As for Taronga Zoo - personally - I do find that some of the criticism levelled at the zoo, its exhibit and the long-term prospects remains unjustified and based more on personal opinion and outlook on the world than any (non-)professional expertise or in-depth knowledge vis a vis the Taronga elephant exhibit, its keeper care and animal management.

I am no lay-person and I have personally followed the fiery debate in Australia vis a vis the Thailand elephant import with much interest and sometimes outright surprise. That debate had been heavily politicised, it being an understatement of the vehemence and sometimes fanatical criticism levelled at all zoos involved in the elephant import, not just the Taronga Zoo.

I found quite a few of the concerns that had been brought up in the past objecting to any elephant imports into Australia/New Zealand had more to do with a general anthropomorphised and romanticised idealism vis a vis the Asiatic elephant as a species (more worthy than others). It seems to me, those seem notions still exist today among some of our zoo forumsters. I feel unjustiably so, but hell we may and can disagree (and most probably we will never agree, but that is just the human condition ).

I am afraid the romantic notion of wild elephants in the wild expanses of their natural habitat is a thing of the past. Eco-tourism in itself is in no way effective to combat the continuous decline in natural elephant populations (if not a whole set of criteria are met at the local level to promote in situ conservation and local participation and ownership) nor is the frequently suggested native sanctuary mode any conservation added benefit or generates funding for in situ conservation.

I can and will elaborate later, but would first invite others to do their bit.
You are all welcome to it here!

Kindest regards,

K.B.

 

[MARK]

Thank you for starting this thread Kifaru Bwana.

While I feel our zoos did the right thing in importing eight Asian Elephants to form two breeding groups in Australia my main concern is as I have stated on the forum before that they would have been better living in one of our Open-range zoos like the Western Plains zoo, I feel myself they need a very large area to live in, also as the herd grows it could hold a larger family group just like the one at Emmen in Europe. Another plus with a much bigger area would be having enough room to hold more than one breeding bull which may not be so easy in a city zoo.

Another corcern of mine is the two (breeding age) Elephants left in the Perth zoo, I am hoping they can join in the National breeding program is some way with their Bloodlines becoming part of the gene pool within this country and are not lossed along the way, thats my two cents worth, for now.

 

[Ara]

Would it be cynical of me to suggest that this importation/breeding program is as much about ensuring a future supply of elephants for Australian zoos (with importation becoming more and more difficult) as it is about conservation? Not that the two are incompatible, of course.

If it was solely about conservation then all Asian elephants in Australia would be taken to one secluded location and set up as a breeding unit.

That's not going to happen of course - the city zoos want them there!

 

[dragon(ele)nerd]

I don't fully agree with how Taronga zoo and Melbourne has set up their plans of importing elephants expecting them to giving birth, but have fairly small enclosures ( compared to the amount of animals) Though they have done a good jobg in the sense that the purpose was to set up a breeding program in australian, and within one year of the elephants coming over, one elephant is annouced pregnant.

Its also good that they have used the valuable bull already on australian soil Bong Su in the breeding system, through A.I.
Though there needs to be some way of hopefully getting more females, just as 3 females are pregnant by bong su through A.I and 90% of A.I elephant births are male. Plus being that the first naturally born calf is a male as well. They'll be too many males over here but then again they could be kept in a bachelor group or sent to another international zoo.

easier said than done.

But i agree with the Perth's pair of Permai and Putra. I just want them along with Tricia to be part of a bigger herd. Perth zoo has spent so much effort and time for the two to breed successfully but no luck.
And nearby auck;and is planning to make a full working herd with several females and two bulls.

what I'm trying to get at is future space is needed, and was needed from the point that the breeding group came over. yes the exhibits are made well but more space is needed surely.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Would it be cynical of me to suggest that this importation/breeding program is as much about ensuring a future supply of elephants for Australian zoos (with importation becoming more and more difficult) as it is about conservation? Not that the two are incompatible, of course.

If it was solely about conservation then all Asian elephants in Australia would be taken to one secluded location and set up as a breeding unit.

That's not going to happen of course - the city zoos want them there!

What you are hinting at is only partially true. Zoo visitors want elephants ... that is also the bottom line. If visitors do not come through the gates we have no zoo and we have no hands on conservation sensitisation. To put it even more plainly: hell forbid that everyone would go and travel to the wide open natural spaces, we already indulge in large scale wild habitat destruction, sending the Bali and Torremolinos tourist millions into Kaziranga, Selous, Pantanal, Galapagos or Antarctica. That would be the penultimate death sentence for those last wild resorts. So, eco-tourism goes only so far and in itself is no substitution for wildlife or in situ conservation.

Concentrating all Asiatic elephants in one location does not make sense in that one would require literally 1,000's of acres to house these in individual family units. Just chucking say 25-30 elephants on a piece of land at WPZ is not going to constitute a viable option, exhibit or family unit. Besides, I am not convinced that city folk from Sydney would actually go in their 100,000's to see the elephants (elephants are quite costing zoo inhabitants). You just have to look at attendance figures at WPZ, Monarto and Werribee to see my point. It is the same in Europe (look at London Regent's Park vs Whipsnade Wild Animal Park).

The notion that relocation to WPZ would work is not true as both elderly Asian and African elephants live there already and Africans are carriers of the herpes virus that kills the Asians.

 

[Jarkari]

What you are hinting at is only partially true. Zoo visitors want elephants ... that is also the bottom line. If visitors do not come through the gates we have no zoo and we have no hands on conservation sensitisation. To put it even more plainly: hell forbid that everyone would go and travel to the wide open natural spaces, we already indulge in large scale wild habitat destruction, sending the Bali and Torremolinos tourist millions into Kaziranga, Selous, Pantanal, Galapagos or Antarctica. That would be the penultimate death sentence for those last wild resorts. So, eco-tourism goes only so far and in itself is no substitution for wildlife or in situ conservation.

Concentrating all Asiatic elephants in one location does not make sense in that one would require literally 1,000's of acres to house these in individual family units. Just chucking say 25-30 elephants on a piece of land at WPZ is not going to constitute a viable option, exhibit or family unit. Besides, I am not convinced that city folk from Sydney would actually go in their 100,000's to see the elephants (elephants are quite costing zoo inhabitants). You just have to look at attendance figures at WPZ, Monarto and Werribee to see my point. It is the same in Europe (look at London Regent's Park vs Whipsnade Wild Animal Park).

The notion that relocation to WPZ would work is not true as both elderly Asian and African elephants live there already and Africans are carriers of the herpes virus that kills the Asians.

When TWPZ took in two elderly circus elephants visitor numbers jumped massively. Imagine what baby elephants would do. I don't think anyone was suggesting a herd 25 -30 strong, If WPZ was to act as a base for the breeding program with say 8 - 10 elephants then they could send smaller family groups away as the herd grows. TWPZ spends 11,000 each year per elephant, they currently house 5.

You say you would need thousands of acres, I don't understand why you say this. If Taronga is acceptable for five, the wouldn't making the new exhibit 6 times bigger suffice? I also think the whole elephant area at TWPZ would be atleast 5 times the size of Tarongas. That plus TWPZ IS thousands of acres spread over two separate properties. HOWEVER. . . any move of b reeding elephants to TWPZ should now wait until the Africans have passed on. The ele keepers at TWPZ have an incredibly strong bond with them (I have seen some amazing video showing just how close this relationship is, it would be just cruel to move them away.

 

[Jarkari]

Sorry my point above was supposed to be that even though it probably wouldn't increase the numbers by hundreds of thousands but I believe tens of thousands would be realistic. the birth of a Prezwalski (sp?) horse foal attracted hundreds of visitors locally (by locally I mean up to 250kms away.)

 

[CGSwans]

When TWPZ took in two elderly circus elephants visitor numbers jumped massively. Imagine what baby elephants would do. I don't think anyone was suggesting a herd 25 -30 strong, If WPZ was to act as a base for the breeding program with say 8 - 10 elephants then they could send smaller family groups away as the herd grows. TWPZ spends 11,000 each year per elephant, they currently house 5.

It only costs $11,000 a year to care for an elephant? I presume that does not include keeper wages, but still... much less than I would have thought.

 

[phoenix]

i really hate the sentence by sentence dissection. but you did mention valid arguments going unanswered. so let me try and find some validity in yours...

What you are hinting at is only partially true. Zoo visitors want elephants ... that is also the bottom line. If visitors do not come through the gates we have no zoo and we have no hands on conservation sensitisation.

heard this argument more than a few times before. but i've never heard anyone answer the following - then why do zoos without elephants like adelaide and its sister zoo monarto, continue to thrive? will the absence of elephants foster a loss of interest in gorillas? monkeys? tigers? personally, i don't buy it...

To put it even more plainly: hell forbid that everyone would go and travel to the wide open natural spaces, we already indulge in large scale wild habitat destruction, sending the Bali and Torremolinos tourist millions into Kaziranga, Selous, Pantanal, Galapagos or Antarctica. That would be the penultimate death sentence for those last wild resorts. So, eco-tourism goes only so far and in itself is no substitution for wildlife or in situ conservation.

this comment makes for such a ridiculous argument, that i can only conclude its construction was for the sole purpose of creating an excuse for the usage of the word "penultimate".

Concentrating all Asiatic elephants in one location does not make sense in that one would require literally 1,000's of acres to house these in individual family units.

but up to nine in the space of a few urban house blocks is okay? jarkari's got you there.

Just chucking say 25-30 elephants on a piece of land at WPZ is not going to constitute a viable option, exhibit or family unit.

what!??? what does this even mean? who's chucking what where?

Besides, I am not convinced that city folk from Sydney would actually go in their 100,000's to see the elephants (elephants are quite costing zoo inhabitants). You just have to look at attendance figures at WPZ, Monarto and Werribee to see my point. It is the same in Europe (look at London Regent's Park vs Whipsnade Wild Animal Park).

well by your own rationale - monarto and werribee don't have elephants so they don't get the numbers for that reason right? i mean thats what you said earlier. that zoos without elephants don't get the figures. but london do.... wait a minute? did you just imply that london zoo does better than whipsnade even though it DOESN'T HAVE ELEPHANTS?!!!!
sorry, but i see no point here, just a lot of contradiction. lets add london to the list of successful zoos that no longer keep elephants shall we?....

The notion that relocation to WPZ would work is not true as both elderly Asian and African elephants live there already and Africans are carriers of the herpes virus that kills the Asians.

fortunately the same doesn't ring true for werribee at just forty minutes from australia's second largest (but fastest growing) city and it'd have to be the zoo with the most potential in the country.

 

[Coquinguy]

can we stop suggesting sending asian elephants to western plains zoo where they have a compound housing african elephants too.

 

[Ara]

It's been said before; but there is no reason why the area of land allocated for elephants at Taronga cannot be greatly increased, to the south-west of the current enclosure. Unlike other Australian urban zoos, Taronga is not developed right out to the boundary fences. There are still, literally, acres (hectares?) of land available. So it's not dead level - that's probably a plus!

 

[dragon(ele)nerd]

It only costs $11,000 a year to care for an elephant? .

seriously??!! wow, the bulk of that would most likely be food.

 

[Jarkari]

It only costs $11,000 a year to care for an elephant? I presume that does not include keeper wages, but still... much less than I would have thought.

To FEED each elepant, staff add considerably to this cost. And not such a little amount when you consider the cost to feed 5 elephants equates to more than ten percent of the zoos total food spending for the other thousand odd animals. The elephant keepers are pretty much the only ones that don't rotate sections. And as Glyn has mentioned for the Asians to be moved to TWPZ the Africans currently living there would also have to be moved, which isn't right for the elephants welfare and there'd be a few pissed off keepers.

 

[CGSwans]

To FEED each elepant, staff add considerably to this cost. And not such a little amount when you consider the cost to feed 5 elephants equates to more than ten percent of the zoos total food spending for the other thousand odd animals. The elephant keepers are pretty much the only ones that don't rotate sections. And as Glyn has mentioned for the Asians to be moved to TWPZ the Africans currently living there would also have to be moved, which isn't right for the elephants welfare and there'd be a few pissed off keepers.

I'm always interested in the finances and management of zoos (what can I say, I'm an ex-accounting student ). How many keepers are there in the elephant section, and how many in the zoo as a whole?

Sorry to bombard you with questions, but you seem to know what you're talking about when it comes to the Australian zoo I'd most like to visit (pushing my girlfriend for a trip in September).

 

[Jarkari]

I'm not sure of an exact number but from memory it's between 40 - 50 keepers total (again that's a guess). and a fair chunk of that is made up of casuals

 

[dragon(ele)nerd]

well concerning the werribee elephant plan, I don't believe it will happen in soon years. Maybe 8-10 at the least. As it would take cosiderable time to build a good facility and espicially considering the conditions there!

I remember actually once when I went late last year the guy in the tour truck mentioned "well a lot of people ask us why don't you keep elephants, the main reasons we choose not to is that we don't have the proper exhibits on hold and we would bust out a huge amount of money to feed them, and since we already have rhinos and hippos that is a big stress on us"
Comes back to Jarkari's point.
I personally would really like to see elephants in werribee though.

 

[zooworker]

It's been said before; but there is no reason why the area of land allocated for elephants at Taronga cannot be greatly increased, to the south-west of the current enclosure. Unlike other Australian urban zoos, Taronga is not developed right out to the boundary fences. There are still, literally, acres (hectares?) of land available. So it's not dead level - that's probably a plus!

The terain is the issue, all the undeveloped land at taronga is either there for bush regen or is just to step to build on. To properly accomidate a full breeding herd at taronga something has to give. Whether it be moving the 3 asian girls to sydney from dubbo and swapping moving the africans into the smaller yards or moving the older asians to australia zoo and setting up house there. Housing africans next to asians had no effect on breeding at SDWAP though it was the africans breeding not the asians, but that was more due to the animals histories as apposed to proximity to the other species. Elephants probably will remain in the main city zoo's and i think that this should not be the debating topic, its the chosen breeding managment that is the issue. Creating satelite herds will not work (ethically wrong as well) and shuffling females is not the answer either, the answer is space. Now we need to find it

 

[Coquinguy]

i still think there is space at taronga for elephants. as i have said before, utilising the strip of land opposite cats of asia right up the section where the meerkats currently are....potentially even the land behind where the red pandas currently are could be incorporated.
the constant suggestion of sending elephants to dubbo i find confusing. for starters there is that potential risk of elephant herpes. then theres the issue of finding the money to upgrade the enclosure. taronga has 10 keepers working with its elephants, something dubbo couldnt afford to do. and also, its not as if dubbo has the best reputation for elephants. im not suggesting they have done anything wrong at all, but its as if some members on this site believe its a case of adding space to elephants and breeding will automatically follow. WPZ never bred their african elephants, and in fact elephants out there, ironically, dont seem to last as long as those in sydney.
i say leave the elephants in sydney, find space when need be. shift some females and calves out as per the recommendations of the ASMP and in the future utilise WPZ as aholding facility for a bachelor group of asian elephant bulls-only after, of course, the Africans are gone or the EHMV disease is fully understood.

 

[MARK]

Glyn, Just maybe the current Elephant team at Taronga "could be" the best elephant team that has ever been put together in an Australian zoo and as you have stated "something Dubbo could not afford". The team leader from what I understand has come from overseas zoos were they have bred elephants which maybe is not the case at Dubbo at that time, I feel if the TWPZ had the same staff there things may of been somewhat different.

 

[zooworker]

Glyn, Just maybe the current Elephant team at Taronga "could be" the best elephant team that has ever been put together in an Australian zoo and as you have stated "something Dubbo could not afford". The team leader from what I understand has come from overseas zoos were they have bred elephants which maybe is not the case at Dubbo at that time, I feel if the TWPZ had the same staff there things may of been somewhat different.

I think the assumtion that just because the elephant team leader came from overseas where they've bred elephants makes the experience better, I will say that management has changed since the 70's but the title of best elephant team and certainly most experienced is disputed. The fact that some of the most experienced elephant keepers on site have left the department would suggest otherwise and the extremly high staff turnover on the department would also suggest something going against this. The idea that using the stip of land opposite the cats is showing just how little knowledge of the land one has(not aimed at mark). With the elephant fencing needed it would make the strip of land just wide enough to have two elephants stand next to each other at its widest! There is no space that can be used unless we remove alot of exhibits