Toronto Zoo AZA Accreditation Denied to Toronto Zoo for 2012-13

[ANyhuis]

I believe that I speak for the entire ZooChat community on this.

Well said, Jbnbsn99. Your entire post is perfect, and it shows what "political animals" these radicals are. As you said, very few of them really care about animals. They ONLY care about their political agenda -- which is the closure of what we love, Zoos. If they cared about animals, they would notice all of the good that zoos do, and they would realize that zookeepers in AZA zoos take far better of the animals under their care than any of the "employees" in the "sanctuaries".

The next time you see an American bison, thank your local zoo. Without zoos, they would already be extinct. The same is true of Arabian oryxes and many other species.

 

[gerenuk]

The next time you see an American bison, thank your local zoo. Without zoos, they would already be extinct. The same is true of Arabian oryxes and many other species.

That isn't entirely true. American bison and Arabian oryx are poor examples to choose for your analogy. Black-footed ferrets and golden lion tamarins would be better fits.

The private sector are mostly responsible for the continuation of the bison and oryx. Zoos did assist (and publicly tout their efforts), but not in a substantial way. While the "world herd" of Arabian oryx were in Phoenix, there were a few hundred Arabian oryx on private ranches in the Arabian peninsula.

 

[Zooplantman]

It is a shame that there seems to be no mature, civilized way to discuss this.
Zealots on either side refusing to let the Official Party Line be challenged. Such zealotry always leaves me thinking "They must have something to fear about the rightness of their arguments if they cannot permit them to be argued."

 

[Animal Rights]

It is a shame that there seems to be no mature, civilized way to discuss this.
Zealots on either side refusing to let the Official Party Line be challenged. Such zealotry always leaves me thinking "They must have something to fear about the rightness of their arguments if they cannot permit them to be argued."

I am in complete agreement, ZooPlantman. As for the statement that zoo people are not allowed on animal rights fora, I have already stated that there is the Asia for Animals conference where zoo people participate alongside animal rights people. There are many zoo people on the Asian Animal Protection Network list. Some of my best friends work in zoos. As for the threats to leave, I can of course leave, but as I pointed out earlier that would make no difference to the situation on the ground or my ability to follow the activities of ZooChat otherwise. I am an ex journalist who has frequently criticised the animal rights movement as well as zoos, I know how to do it and I have done much more in my life than debate zoos and focusing solely on animal issues. Having said that, I must say one has to grateful for individuals like Steve Robinson and ZooPlantman who know how to accommodate differing views without rancour or malice. If others don't know this, they ought to learn it rather than issuing threats. Any threat only reveals the the bankruptcy of the state of the individual issuing it.

 

[Animal Rights]

I also just wonder what would be the reaction of the moderator if an animal rights activist hid his identity with a zoo name and came to this forum and expressed the same views as I have, views which are endorsed by some sections of the zoo community as well? Presumably they would be abused the way progressive directors like Kagan and Hancocks have been hounded, is it not? Incidentally, just to let you know, I made a substantive donation to the Toronto Zoo endangered species fund when I was there so I do know what zoo conservation is about. I have also worked in a zoo, Jersey Zoo and supported them for twenty years.
But anyway, it is your forum, no I will not press the topic any further. Anyone interested in communicating further can do so by way of the private email given earlier. Thank you Mr Moderator for showing your true colours.

 

[ANyhuis]

Presumably they would be abused the way progressive directors like Kagan and Hancocks have been hounded, is it not?

Thank you Mr Moderator for showing your true colours.

Quit whining -- the Moderator gave you a 100% appropriate response.

And Pul-lease! Do not try to tell us that Hancocks is a "progressive director". Maybe he once was, but for the past decade he's been a well known enemy of American zoos. His actions at the LA Zoo trial speak very well for his stance.

 

[jbnbsn99]

The reason I gave such a response is that every single reference Animal Rights gave is from a known and out-spoken anti-zoo activist. Not just anti elephants in zoos, but against zoos in general. One cannot have an open discussion with someone who is ideologically opposed to any concept. Zoos have drawbacks as well as benefits, but to oppose them entirely and to actively protest against them benefits no one, or more correctly no species.

 

[ANyhuis]

The reason I gave such a response is that every single reference Animal Rights gave is from a known and out-spoken anti-zoo activist. Not just anti elephants in zoos, but against zoos in general. One cannot have an open discussion with someone who is ideologically opposed to any concept. Zoos have drawbacks as well as benefits, but to oppose them entirely and to actively protest against them benefits no one, or more correctly no species.

Your response was PERFECT, Mr. Moderator!

By the way, one species that Mr. Animal Rights and his radical allies never ever think of is the human species. Of course, all of us zoo lovers definitely care about the animals who are guests in the fine zoos we visit, but we also must consider the humans who come to see and enjoy them. This is why we talk about and critique the many zoo exhibits for building an authentic and educational atmosphere, and why it's important that exhibits offer good viewing of the animals. But the anti-zoo radicals not only don't care about humans, they actually want to take away any animal experiences with zoo animals. This is why they want the elephants going to stupid "sanctuaries" rather than well-equipped and AZA-approved zoos, where the animals are far better cared for. For Mr. Animal Rights, it's far more important to get those elephants out of human sight than it is for the elephants to be well cared for.

 

[Steve Robinson]

I don't wish to participate in the broader debate here - my views are crystal clear and unlikely to be changed to any great extent at this stage of my life.

What I am really keen to understand is the true picture about the PAWS sanctuary.

I have asked for people who support PAWS to explain to me why - one response.

I have asked for the people who oppose PAWS to explain to me why - one response also.

So, please tell me this, have any of you, for or against, ever been to the sanctuary? Has anyone ever had a really good look through the place?

 

[ANyhuis]

Thank you very much for your civility and decency....

Just in case anyone is fooled into thinking this guy is "civil", "decent", or mature, on the side this clown sent me 5 vulgar and profane Private Messages, via ZooChat.

Moderator, if you're looking for a reason to ban this guy, you have it.

 

[jbnbsn99]

Can you forward the PMs to me?

 

[Spixii]

I don't wish to participate in the broader debate here - my views are crystal clear and unlikely to be changed to any great extent at this stage of my life.

What I am really keen to understand is the true picture about the PAWS sanctuary.

I have asked for people who support PAWS to explain to me why - one response.

I have asked for the people who oppose PAWS to explain to me why - one response also.

So, please tell me this, have any of you, for or against, ever been to the sanctuary? Has anyone ever had a really good look through the place?

No one visits the sanctuaries because they are closed to the public. The reality is sanctuaries provide no benefit to wild populations. While zoo elephants may or may not be released into their natural habitat in 100 years; they are still vital CURRENTLY to the conservation of their own species. If you can evoke a response from people who view elephants in captivity, you can create a broad awareness.

Last time I have checked sanctuaries in the U.S. do not provide funding to research and conservation projects in either Africa or Asia...
On the other hand every reputable zoo I have visited which houses elephants DOES provide funding to elephant conservation in the wild.

Just as zoos have been accused by ARAs of exploiting elephants, the ARAs and sactuaries are doing the exact same to fund their cause which ultimately is to get elephants out of zoos and end zoos altogether.
Elephants are evocative and both sides (pro-zoo and anti-zoo) are able to raise considerable funds on behalf of these animals. So, are zoos exploiting elephants? Yes, but so are the ARA's.

The females from Toronto might as well go to PAWS to live out their golden years. The entire problem with their move to PAWS is that the city council made the decision. NOT the animal care staff of the Toronto zoo. Who would have ultimately decided to send the girls to Disney's Animal kingdom and later the national elephant center which in itself is a sanctuary.

Either way the elephants would end up in a warmer climate with space and the company of other elephants of their own species. The only difference is at the NEC they would be a part of an education program and at PAWS they would be closed off from the public.

The Toronto 3 may not be vital to SSP due to their age, but they could have proven invaluable to mentoring other breeding age female elephants.

 

[Steve Robinson]

No one visits the sanctuaries because they are closed to the public.

Do they not have "open days" sometimes for fee paying visitors??

Has anyone on this forum ever been to one of those?

Has any professional zoo keeper on this forum ever been able to visit PAWS or Tennessee?

 

[Chlidonias]

Do they not have "open days" sometimes for fee paying visitors??

I'm sure they do. Wasn't there a bit in one of the NZ news reports where there was an "open day" sort of thing happening?

(I'm just posting here to get the emails for thread updates really)

 

[DavidBrown]

Do they not have "open days" sometimes for fee paying visitors??

Has anyone on this forum ever been to one of those?

Has any professional zoo keeper on this forum ever been able to visit PAWS or Tennessee?

The PAWS shelters are open for tours on some days (Performing Animal Welfare Society -- PAWS). I've not visited them personally but know people who have. Pat Derby and her colleagues do work with the zoo community to some degree, and their facilities and animal care seem to be respected by at least some in the zoo world. The Oakland Zoo works with them on elephant welfare issues (Oakland Zoo).

I think that some in the zoo world see PAWS as an acceptable home for "problem" and elderly elephants that wouldn't fit well with breeding herds.

 

[ANyhuis]

Thanks, JBNBSN99, for effectively monitoring this site.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Do they not have "open days" sometimes for fee paying visitors??

Has anyone on this forum ever been to one of those?

Has any professional zoo keeper on this forum ever been able to visit PAWS or Tennessee?

Only open for supporters at a gargantuan fee!

Really, Steve ... Loxodonta could not have given a more concise and suscinct review / position essay on the PAWS facility. The very person that might have visited the place - the esteemed Dan Koehl - has also be slapped with a writ by PAWS.

It is time we all fought back PAWS for their failings and take them to task. They do not fund in situ conservation, provide in situ awareness building, participate in elephant conservation (breeding) programmes and are off-site to any decent evenly minded thinking person.

 

[ANyhuis]

Only open for supporters at a gargantuan fee!

Really, Steve ... Loxodonta could not have given a more concise and suscinct review / position essay on the PAWS facility. The very person that might have visited the place - the esteemed Dan Koehl - has also be slapped with a writ by PAWS.

It is time we all fought back PAWS for their failings and take them to task. They do not fund in situ conservation, provide in situ awareness building, participate in elephant conservation (breeding) programmes and are off-site to any decent evenly minded thinking person.

Bottom line.... PAWS are not friends of zoos. So why be friendly to them? Why send animals from accreditted zoos to them, when there are plenty of other zoos to send the animals to?

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Bottom line.... PAWS are not friends of zoos. So why be friendly to them? Why send animals from accreditted zoos to them, when there are plenty of other zoos to send the animals to?

Agreed there. It is part and parcel of my arguement too + I would feel far more comfortable with the TZ elephants going to an AZA accredited institution full stop.

 

[Chungri Putki]

A letter to the Toronto Zoo Board of Management from the Curator of the Oakland Zoo (an AZA
affiliated zoological organization)

May 12, 2011

Dear Toronto Zoo Board of Management members,

I am writing to express my support for the Performing Animal Welfare Society (PAWS) and their
elephant management program. As the General Curator of the Oakland Zoo I have worked closely with
the PAWS directors and staff on many projects over the past 20 years. We have worked together on a
variety of animal issues. I have spent a lot of time at their facility over the years both during events (new
elephant arrivals) and just to visit and observe routine operations.

My particular area of expertise is in elephant behavior and captive management. Over the past twenty -
five years I have been responsible for the daily care and management of a total of twelve African
elephants and four Asian elephants. I have provided consultation and assistance in the training, transport,
birth, hand rearing and care of many other elephants at different facilities. I also study the behavior of
elephants both in captivity and in the wild and received my Masters on the behavior of elephants in the
wild.

The PAWS ARK 2000 elephant facility is absolutely one of the best in the country, it far exceeds most if
not all AZA zoo facilities. Their elephant facility is outstanding both by being spacious and complex
(hills, trees, grass, natural ponds) for the animals themselves but also in terms of state of the art
management facilities (elephant restraint chute, spacious, multi-stall, indoor facilities, multiple outdoor
yards) .

In terms of their elephant management program they have an excellent Protected Contact management
program. They have well over 70 years of elephant management experience just among the directors and
senior staff. For the past several years Active Environments trainers Margaret Whittaker and Gail Laule
have been employed by PAWS and are directly involved in training and elephant management. Together
they have had tremendous success training elephants to accept challenging and sometimes uncomfortable
procedures like voluntary blood draws and Tb testing.

Both in terms of facilities and management ARK 2000 far exceeds both AZA and USDA standards
providing excellent care for elephants with a wide variety of backgrounds, social experiences, training
experiences, and medical conditions.

Any captive elephant would be lucky to have the opportunity to retire at ARK 2000. If you have any
questions please feel free to contact me.

Sincerely,

Colleen Kinzley
General Curator
Oakland Zoo