Barbary lion DNA testing

[Pertinax]

The zoo claims they are Barbaries, but all of the information I have been able to find quotes the zoo as a source.

I don't know anything of the background of those particular Lions, but this happens time and time again. The zoo holding the Lions puts out that they are Barbary Lions, or contain Barbary blood- its a strong 'romantic' story, that they are holding an 'extinct' species, and therefore good publicity. But in these cases, there is little or no scientific foundation to back this up. Either the Lions concerned have never been DNA tested, perhaps because the zoo would rather not blow their own myth with the scientific reality, or, if they have, the results will have been inconclusive or negative, but the Zoo will just look away from that.

As pointed out earlier in this thread, there will be many Lions that contain a smidgin of Barbary blood in their ancestry, but from so long ago that its not really traceable any more. It still doesn't mean there couldn't be, somewhere in the World, Lions that are more directly descended from Barbaries, but if that's so, nobody seems to have discovered them yet.

 

[Pleistohorse]

How "wide" is the hybrid zone in areas where the distrbution of two subspecies meet up? How is the fragmenting of wildlife habitat forcing subspeciation, if at all? I remember the National Zoo in Washington exhibited "Barbary Lions" in the early '80s. I believe Frankfurt was calling it's lions "Barbary" about 15 years ago (I think they have Asiastic Lions now). Is it that any heavily maned, dark lion is speculated to be a Barbary based on appearance...or do zoos attempt to establish a link to a North African founder?

 

[TeaLovingDave]

How "wide" is the hybrid zone in areas where the distrbution of two subspecies meet up?

This is not the issue; the problem is that in bygone decades pretty much every zoo around was deliberately breeding Barbary Lions, and lions with known Barbary blood,with other lion subspecies in order to make their stock look more impressive.

Is it that any heavily maned, dark lion is speculated to be a Barbary based on appearance...or do zoos attempt to establish a link to a North African founder?

The former scenario is the general state of affairs.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Lions in Tsavo parks in Kenya have impressive dark manes. That does not necessarily make the Barbaries ...!

For sure there is original Barbary genetic material in the zoo-mix (mind ... I repeat zoo-mix) lion population in Europe, but as TLD has indicated the percentage now may be rather low. In historical times sadly it was a fashion to cross-breed Barbary lions into other lion subspecies - alas at a time we had imports of known lion subspecies and sufficient numbers to have programmes similar to say how giraffe are separated - quite freely. Now for the love of the world we have no pure Barbary lion lineages anymore and thus the subspecies is sadly extinct. The only place you will find some is in natural history museums and perhaps in the odd zoo here and there as an exhibit in similar natural history collection style. Sadly ...

 

[Pertinax]

Is it that any heavily maned, dark lion is speculated to be a Barbary based on appearance...or do zoos attempt to establish a link to a North African founder?

There seem to be two prongs to this. One is smaller Zoos that have a particularly large and heavily maned Lion (or two) in their collection and decide, without any other evidence or proof, to simply claim that they are Barbary, or part Barbary.

But a number of Zoos which have Lions descended from the 'Royal' Lions of Rabat Zoo in Morocco did have a rather stronger claim, given that these were believed to be direct descendants of wild Atlas/Barbary Lions taken into captivity severeal generations ago and which survived after the extinction of the last wild Barbaries. However that theory also now appears to have been scientifically disproved also.

 

[FBBird]

Barbary Lion...

I've got some Barbary Doves. Will that do?

 

[nanoboy]

Does the average zoo-goer care if it's a Barbary or a Tsavo or a Kruger? To them, isn't a lion a lion?

 

[TheOnlineZoo]

Does the average zoo-goer care if it's a Barbary or a Tsavo or a Kruger? To them, isn't a lion a lion?

Normally, you are absolutely correct.

But when the zoo puts up a sign telling people why their lions are cooler than other zoos' lions, some people start to care. At least that's what The Texas Zoo in Victoria does. It's a very small zoo, and the "Barbary Lions" are the only reason many people have heard about it.

 

[Pleistohorse]

But when the zoo puts up a sign telling people why their lions are cooler than other zoos' lions, some people start to care. At least that's what The Texas Zoo in Victoria does. It's a very small zoo, and the "Barbary Lions" are the only reason many people have heard about it.

Sorry if I'm going off topic, but wasn't the Texas Zoo once devoted to animals native to Texas (with a couple Texotics displayed as well)? When did their mission change?

I guess the Zoo changed to increase attendance. The highlighted Barbary Lions might not impress locals so much as draw in cat fans from further afield.

 

[TheOnlineZoo]

Sorry if I'm going off topic, but wasn't the Texas Zoo once devoted to animals native to Texas (with a couple Texotics displayed as well)? When did their mission change?

I don't know the history, but when I first visited about three years ago, there was definitely not a Texas theme. It's a small but pleasant zoo, and the coolest thing for me was it's the only place I've ever seen a badger.

 

[Pertinax]

It's a very small zoo, and the "Barbary Lions" are the only reason many people have heard about it.

It would certainly fit the category of those small Zoos that suddenly decide they have a Barbary Lion and publicise it as such.

I forgot to mention a third category- in the 1970's in Europe there was an attempt to 'recreate' the Barbary Lion by back-breeding with Lions thought to be of Barbary origin(based on their appearance) in a number of Zoos.(this was before scientific means such as DNA testing were available). These Lions were checked for outward Barbary traits(heavy mane, belly hair, big tufted tail etc) and graded A B &C according to how they matched. A programme of breeding from the 'A' grade animals and some 'B''s, but no C's was started. But it faded out after some years though some Zoos in Eastern Europe may still hold Lions which are the result of that attempt.

More recent breeding plans have hinged instead mainly on Lions thought to be descended from the Moroccan Lions of Rabat Zoo.

 

[The Vegan]

I'd like to bring up the point somebody already made here: just how different were Barbaries from other subspecies? Isn't it true that in the harsher north of Africa (The Sahel and the Sahara) there are - and have always been - few lions, and those few lions ranged far more than sub-Saharan lions in order to find suitable territory and prey? That scenario would create a gradient of genetic changes from north to south, and vice versa. Of course, this would only occur along the coasts and the Nile in historic times, since the Sahara creates a barrier. However, previous to approx. 10,000 BC, when the Sahara was far more like the Sahel of today, this gradient and "overlapping" of subspecies would have occurred across the Sahara. Just some thoughts .

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Genetically the true Barbary lions were much closer to the extant Asiatic Lion than they were to any of the extant African subspecies of lion - which makes a lot more sense when you recall that until relatively recently, the Barbary Lion ranged across much of North Africa, and the Asiatic Lion was found throughout the Middle East and Eastern Europe - the two subspecies likely formed a gradient in Egypt.

 

[Pertinax]

until relatively recently, the Barbary Lion ranged across much of North Africa, and the Asiatic Lion was found throughout the Middle East and Eastern Europe - the two subspecies likely formed a gradient in Egypt.

I believe the Lions' range was continuous through those areas.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I believe the Lions' range was continuous through those areas.

Indeed, I was merely noting that the area of overlap was Egypt.

Personally I've always found it more interesting to recall that Asiatic Lions were found in the Balkans until relatively recently, historically speaking.

 

[dogman]

listen to youselves guys, please come on oh they are not barbary's so dont pay any attention to them , they are not pure so they are not real barbary's, do you not think you guys are putting way to much onto whether they are pure or not, are the collections you are talking about really lying to you and saying they have pure barbary's or are you just not listening or making your own judgements, lets look at some other sub spp for instance it is now well recognised that the asiatic lion population is pretty stuffed yet no one kicks off about them being bred by every zoo, what about wild dogs in captivity, we know they have smaller skulls and shorter legs so perhaps we dont bother with them either as they are so different from the wild ones. and how about the fact that some spp are 30 or more generations away from the founder wild caught populations so does this make them also non pure, come on guys think about it!!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

lets look at some other sub spp for instance it is now well recognised that the asiatic lion population is pretty stuffed yet no one kicks off about them being bred by every zoo

You obviously don't know most of us very well I personally think that the taxa should be given up for a lost cause in Europe, and the funding and enclosure space redirected to the conservation of pure African subspecies.

Considering the fact all the examples you cite are cases where the captive taxa has undergone genetic bottlenecking due to inbreeding in captivity, NOT hybridisation with other taxa as has happened with the Barbary Lion, your argument is invalid - both because these issues have happened because the taxa are too pure, as it were, and because many of us would love any populations which have become highly inbred and bottlenecked to be phased out, or receive new blood.

 

[Brum]

You obviously don't know most of us very well I personally think that the taxa should be given up for a lost cause in Europe, and the funding and enclosure space redirected to the conservation of pure African subspecies.

I have to disagree there Dave, with the recent import from Singapore and the ones from Dvur Kralove there may well be hope. I know Dvur are not part of the EAZA at the moment but I really don't see how they can be excluded for much longer.

Considering the fact all the examples you cite are cases where the captive taxa has undergone genetic bottlenecking due to inbreeding in captivity, NOT hybridisation with other taxa as has happened with the Barbary Lion, your argument is invalid - both because these issues have happened because the taxa are too pure, as it were, and because many of us would love any populations which have become highly inbred and bottlenecked to be phased out, or receive new blood.

I think that the aforementioned poster may not be too familiar with ZooChat on this one, most of us know what has occured in the recent past and is still happening. For example:- Are Cincinnati not trying to breed sibling Sumatran rhino? How many of us agree with that even though we know it's wrong!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I have to disagree there Dave, with the recent import from Singapore and the ones from Dvur Kralove there may well be hope. I know Dvur are not part of the EAZA at the moment but I really don't see how they can be excluded for much longer.

Much as new blood is appreciated, these imports are insufficient - for a viable long term population, without the same issue coming up again in a few decades, we'll need about 15,25 individuals to come in.

 

[zoogiraffe]

I have to disagree there Dave, with the recent import from Singapore and the ones from Dvur Kralove there may well be hope. I know Dvur are not part of the EAZA at the moment but I really don't see how they can be excluded for much longer.



I think that the aforementioned poster may not be too familiar with ZooChat on this one, most of us know what has occured in the recent past and is still happening. For example:- Are Cincinnati not trying to breed sibling Sumatran rhino? How many of us agree with that even though we know it's wrong!

Sorry its to little to late they needed these animals 10 years ago!!If they had brought another 20 in with these new imports,there may have been a chance,but they didn't so I am sorry to say Asian Lions could die out in Europe in my life time!