bear breeding

[dragon(ele)nerd]

There isn't much info about it on the web but in Chinese newspapers I've read that Malaysian and Thai have high success with Sun bears. There was an article as well I remember that an Asian Black bear had been born in a Thai zoo, I don't know which one though,

 

[Dan]

Zoogiraffe,

No, you overinterpret my views here a bit. I am genuinely interested in zoos and does not oppose them on priciple. And it is not my intention at all to start angry debates in a forum that I am completely new to. As for your question, I believe that most bad examples I read about referred to America, rather than the UK or Europe.

 

[Dan]

But then again, Zoogiraffe

As a zoo professional, can you or can you not, confirm what I have written about the killings of bear cubs etc? It would be of interest to all of us here at this website.

"We" are not your average zoo visitor, "we" are actually genuinely concerned with all sorts of matters regarding zoos.

Please reply to this!

 

[Jurek7]

Don´t you know, Taun, that this is a fairly usual practise in zoos? Not just with bears. This goes on with other species, as well.

Could you please tell in which zoos it is usual practice?

In my local zoos, for example, bears hardly ever are bred. Those spectacled and polar bear cubs from Germany and Austria are well, to my knowledge.

 

[Jurek7]

But then again, Zoogiraffe

As a zoo professional, can you or can you not, confirm what I have written about the killings of bear cubs etc?

Dan, you want somebody say that he can be sure that no zoo in the world never did something within last unspecified number of years?

If it is so "usual" I'm sure you can pull several newspaper quotes yourself.

 

[docend24]

I can think about amny solutions which zoos are using (for cubs which have to be separated from parents):

rear spaces
another exhibit
change with other zoos (it is often about not inbreeding or forming bachelor groups)
temporary deponation
contraceptive
castration
reintroduction
semiwild colonies
selling offsprings off (it is bad but it obviously occuir in some zoos; on the other hand there are zoos which would never do this)

Director of Prague Zoo said he don't want his Zoo to produce surplus animals if there is not space for them. I'm certain many zoos do the same. Conservation programs apart, examples of previously mentioned solutions in Prague:
- barbary sheep are reproducing well here and it is usually hard to find a place for them in other zoos; there are a spacious rock exhibit so only surplus males are problematic; they castrated non-dominant males to keep them in the group with any turmoils
- european wolves - prague wolfpack is 5;1 consisting of alpha female on contraceptive, alpha male and four their sons from last two litters; other cubs of the pair are in other zoos and some of them were reintroduced (don't remember exactly where)
- there are separated male herds and female herds of species such as kiangs, kulans because of the low demand from other zoos
- some young individuals of european bison, adax, Przewalski's horse,... reintroduced in their natural habitat
-night heron became wild within zoo's area; prairie dogs are free to expand to adjacent exhibits (started in bison(canada goose exhibit, prefered the next one with camels nad are expanding further this direction)

 

[zoogiraffe]

But then again, Zoogiraffe

As a zoo professional, can you or can you not, confirm what I have written about the killings of bear cubs etc? It would be of interest to all of us here at this website.

"We" are not your average zoo visitor, "we" are actually genuinely concerned with all sorts of matters regarding zoos.

Please reply to this!

dan i`m not a zoo professional but if i was i would not confirm or deny that animals where bred for getting visitors through the gates for the simple fact that it would give the zoo-anti brigade ammunation that they don`t need,as they make up and misinterpret to much stuff already,the reason i say this is i know people who have been on the wrong end of these peoples lies and ignorance of what goes on in zoo`s.

 

[tetrapod]

Don´t you know, Taun, that this is a fairly usual practise in zoos? Not just with bears. This goes on with other species, as well. I am sure that the professional zoo keepers, of which there must be a few on this forum, will confirm my statement?

Dan

As I am one person on this forum that has zoo experience, I can tell you that no animal bred in a zoo I worked for have deliberately bred animals for PR purposes and then euthanased.

The only exception of a species deliberately bred with the knowledge that the offspring would be culled was at a park I worked at that had wild boar. Obviously the piglets were very popular with the visitors, but so that we not swamped with alot of hungry mouths each year, all of the piglets were culled at ~9 months old. Some of the meat was dished out to staff, but most went to feeding wolves. I don't personally have a problem. The pigs had a very happy life and a good clean death. The meat would have had to be sourced from another outlet, where we would have had no control over its life. Plenty of rabbits, goats, rodents and invertebrates have similarly been used in many zoos.

But going back to more traditional zoo animals I would say that the practice of essentially breeding for publicity in most western zoos would be nil. The simple fact is that zoos are too regulated (both through government control and zoo associations) and also would come under widespread criticism from the public and staff. When talking specifically about 'good' zoos, no collection tries to breed irresponsibly. This happens often enough due to poor management through either animal husbandry or staff experience (mistakes do happen). I can tell you that I have been on the rough end of a management decision to cull offspring of a popular animal, in secret, due to poor management (in this case to prevent breeding; no home for the surplus). It isn't something I ever wish to have to do again. However no one in the zoo community would condone the deliberate culling of a surplus individual if it's only purpose was for PR. I would not want to say that this practice doesn't occur in less-regulated zoos in third-world countries.

 

[docend24]

On the other hand ... http://www.zoobeat.com/109/berlin-bit-bother-15100/ ... disturbing...

 

[Dan]

OK, thanks so much for the sincere input from everybody! I will think hard, do some web research and come back on the subject. May take a few days.

 

[Dan]

Well, unfortunately it turned out to be pretty easy to find examples on how zoos breed animals and then kill the off-spring. A few net searches were enough. Below you find reports on the subject, concerning some very reputable Western zoos. Note that the information comes from mainstream media, not animal rights sources.

First, though, please check the link to another thread on this forum that Docend24 supplied us with. In it, too, the subject of eutahanasia in zoos are discussed:
http://www.zoobeat.com/109/berlin-bit-bother-15100/

And then to my own findings:

Example from my “home zoo” – Copenhagen; young tigers euthanized:
The Copenhagen Post


A similar example, this time lion cubs, in Basel Zoo in Switzerland:
Swiss zoo culls endangered lion cubs - Telegraph

A quote from Toronto Zoo´s policy on euthanasia: “The humane culling of animals should take place at times that approximate natural processes of “biological crossroads” such as birth, weaning or the leaving of the family group.”
Toronto Zoo > About the Toronto Zoo > Press Information


Nuremberg Zoo, Germany (see the end of this article, that mainly deals with another subject):
Berlin zoo accused of profiting from slaughter | Environment | The Guardian

Also:

Of course it is easy to find similar info on animal rights activist´s web sites. But I suspect that many on this forum may think such sources are doubtful, to say the least. However, I will use one example. It discusses the killings of bear and tiger cubs in Swiss zoos, see the text below the headline “SUNDAY NEWSPAPER: 3 BEAR CUBS SHOT DEAD IN BASEL, 2 TIGER CUBS PUT TO SLEEP IN ZURICH Why? “:
THE BIG LIE ABOUT NOAH'S ARK ZOO


Again:
I don´t oppose the existence of zoos. If I did I wouldn´t spend a lot of time on this web site. But I feel we must be able to debate all possible issues concerning zoos.

 

[tetrapod]

Without reading each and every article that you have presented, I don't doubt that there are plenty of cases of animals that have been bred in zoos and then euthansed. My point was - what was the reason behind both the breeding and the euthanasing. Were the animals euthanased due to an accidental breeding (and no home found for the surplus individuals)? Or were the animals bred on purpose for PR purposes, extolling the zoo's virtues of breeding endangered species, and then euthased due to a lack of space or homes? The answers to both questions would, in my mind, carry different weights.

 

[taun]

Again:
I don´t oppose the existence of zoos. If I did I wouldn´t spend a lot of time on this web site. But I feel we must be able to debate all possible issues concerning zoos.

Firstly Dan, it comes across that you are only taking this one side and none of your post have acknowledge the other side to all these stories.

Well, unfortunately it turned out to be pretty easy to find examples on how zoos breed animals and then kill the off-spring. A few net searches were enough. Below you find reports on the subject, concerning some very reputable Western zoos. Note that the information comes from mainstream media, not animal rights sources.

Right so on a handful of articles you have found, suddenly it’s rife within western zoos! Be interesting to hear how many articles you actually found. Am not surprised you have found some articles quickly considering it's something that would get high profile news.

Everyone thinks that a zoo is an ideal world. We live in a society
which doesn't accept death. In a zoo death is ubiquitous.

Found on one of your links posted. Death is something zoos have to deal with; it also sometimes has to decide that an animal should not live anymore. I have also struggled to find anything in your links posted stating that the cubs where breed to increase gate admissions?

I understand that in a very worst case scenario a perfectively healthy animal may need to be put down. As I said before there will be a few cases in zoo's as there is so many of them in the world and not all zoo's are run by people who manage the animal properly and that MISTAKES can happen. I read in one of the articles they controlled births by drugs and separation, but did not like to do this because of animal welfare.

We need to read a bit more between the lines and not jump either way! Every story has two sides and well Dan you seemed to be focused on pushing your point on us that not many people on these forums will appreciate.

We accept a well thought out point of differing opinions.

 

[Dan]

Thanks for the replies!

Let me answer by using my "home zoo" as the example - Copenhagen. I live in Sweden, but as a child I visited Copenhagen Zoo a couple of times with my parents. This was in the beginning of the 1960s. As an animal lover, I was amazed to see lions, elephants and hippos with my own eyes - for the first time in my life. I did not reflect on the fact that the great cats were housed in a classic "Carnivore House" building of the kind that we now regard as totally obsolete.

15 years later i was a grown up and happened to move to the south of Sweden and could therfore start visiting Copenhagen Zoo as much as I wanted. By this time the zoo had started to modernize in small steps; the old "Carnivore´s House" was thankfully demolished and replaced with outdoor, landscaped enclosures for the big cats.

Fast forward another 30 years and in one of these enclosures live a pair of Siberian tigers. They continually mate and new litters of tigers are born. I don´t see any reasons for mating these two tigers unless the lives ot the off-spring is secured. The latest litter, three males, have just been transfered to Borås Zoo in Sweden. The former litter, two brothers, wasn´t so lucky: they were killed. Come to think of it: I have actually watched these two beautiful cats play on several occasions.

It makes me very uncomfortable that they were killed. Why were they bred, I ask?

 

[taun]

It makes me very uncomfortable that they were killed. Why were they bred, I ask?

Your barking up the wrong tree asking us! The best place would be to contact the zoo, as they will hold all the facts.

 

[Dan]

Not a very good answer, considering we are discussing a principle.

 

[UntBwe]

I know that there are to many lions in European zoos. Maybe there are also to many tigers, or to many non pure-blooded? In the past many zoos just put some tigers together without asking themselfs if the two are of the same species. Malayans, Siberians, Indians, all are mixed up. Today, the zoos are trying to keep it pure blooded but that's very difficult with all those mixed-descendants.

 

[Jurek7]

Dan,

I see no proof of your claim: that zoos breed bear and lion cubs just for profit from visitor attendance and it happens commonly.

Simply - if you want to present animal management as profiteering from killing animals, you are wrong.

Animals are occassionally killed. Breeding management is tried. But animals are not clockwork toys and you cannot sit and say exactly how many will be born, raised, die and will be housed next year. Zoos try their best, but I perfectly believe Basel zoo director that 3 male lions are impossible to house, but he might find room for a pair.

For hoofed animals, reasoning is that meat for predators come from other hoofed animals bred in much worse conditions.

If your principle is that cute big-eyed young animals should not die and be eaten by predators, teach lions to eat tofu.

 

[taun]

Not a very good answer, considering we are discussing a principle.

Dan, many people have answered in principle why animals are bred when they have no place to go.

But you seem to just want the answer to the specific explain you have found!

Many people have explained that the breeding may have been an accident, or a result of bad management. Reading your specific answer this seems to be the case.

Many zoos don't house enough room to separate tigers and lions.
1) Tigers don't seem to mind company of others even thou they are solitary in the wild. I don’t blame zoo for providing enough room for a couple and small cubs as it makes room for another species.

2) Lion's live naturally together and so zoos replicate this to benefit the animals. So therefore births are likely to happen.

Similar situation with bears and the likes of orangutans (but due to the long inter birth interval there are never really any accidental birth's).

Herd animals also are hard to manage breeding wise, but that why zoos hold bachelor groups.

Any chance on you providing us with the rest of your findings on your search for other cases? Like total of cases you found from reliable sources?

 

[taun]

Dan,

I see no proof of your claim: that zoos breed bear and lion cubs just for profit from visitor attendance and it happens commonly.

Simply - if you want to present animal management as profiteering from killing animals, you are wrong.

Animals are occassionally killed. Breeding management is tried. But animals are not clockwork toys and you cannot sit and say exactly how many will be born, raised, die and will be housed next year. Zoos try their best, but I perfectly believe Basel zoo director that 3 male lions are impossible to house, but he might find room for a pair.

For hoofed animals, reasoning is that meat for predators come from other hoofed animals bred in much worse conditions.

If your principle is that cute big-eyed young animals should not die and be eaten by predators, teach lions to eat tofu.

Well said Jurek7, I forgot about the recommendations from the stud book keeper to breed certain pairs.

Statistic's show us that for breeding program to gain enough animals for next generation of animals to continue its survival in zoos, that some will not be successful.

Therefore it is probably best practice to get 7 zoos to try instead of the optimal number being 5 to gain enough offspring. Therefore sometimes there can be a surplus on animals. Studbooks are managed carefully but nature doesn’t play by the same rules.