Best UK Wombat enclosure

[ThylacineAlive]

Husbandry issues relating to the day to day care of the animal(s) rather than the design / management / maintenance of the enclosure? If that is the case ( and I am not saying it is as I have no idea how accurate your information is or what the circumstances actually were) then it raises the question as to whether it is of any relevance to this poll. Outside of not voting for a collection on principle - which is a fair enough approach - then I guess we would need more information to know in this instance.

How is whether an animal can survive or not at the zoo not something that should be taken into consideration whether it's the enclosure itself that's the problem? It doesn't many how nice the enclosure is, if the animals can't be kept alive then the zoo isn't doing a good job and the quality of the enclosure almost becomes moot. I don't remember anyone having a problem with this criticism when South Lake's tapir enclosure was criticized for husbandry issues.

For me - I am trying not to let breeding history influence my opinion heavily as I'm pretty sure I don't have all the information needed to understand why some collections have not done well. I believe you can just be unlucky in this resepect with fertility issues and such that are unrelated to enclosure design. Chester's jaguars are a prime example - great enclosure, never going to successfully breed the current pair. Maybe you are putting more weight on successful breeding as a rating factor.

How are animals that are completely capable of breeding until ideal conditions either doing so or not and then a pair of animals where the male is literally incapable of fertilizing an ovary at all comparable, though? Additionally, from my understanding, Chester were breeding their Jaguar just fine until the SSP asked them to stop so your example doesn't follow.

~Thylo

 

[zoogiraffe]

I wouldn't say that Chester were breeding jaguars just fine before they were stopped by the EEP, as I don't count still born litters, as a breeding even though they had at least one litter that were still born.

 

[Zia]

How is whether an animal can survive or not at the zoo not something that should be taken into consideration whether it's the enclosure itself that's the problem? It doesn't many how nice the enclosure is, if the animals can't be kept alive then the zoo isn't doing a good job and the quality of the enclosure almost becomes moot. I don't remember anyone having a problem with this criticism when South Lake's tapir enclosure was criticized for husbandry issues.



How are animals that are completely capable of breeding until ideal conditions either doing so or not and then a pair of animals where the male is literally incapable of fertilizing an ovary at all comparable, though? Additionally, from my understanding, Chester were breeding their Jaguar just fine until the SSP asked them to stop so your example doesn't follow.

~Thylo

Who has a problem with it? It would be a no-vote on principle which as I said - is a fair enough approach. But to answer your question - it all comes down to whether you are exclusively judging the enclosure design or if you are including the keeping staff / management of the animals. It is of course possible to have a spectacular enclosure and hopeless care of the animals in it. Equally you could have a mediocre enclosure but excellent care / enrichment opportunities. It would be a lot simpler if the poll was "Who provides the overall best environment and care" but it is not - it is "best enclosure".

In this case I can't make a real judgement on the death of the wombat as I don't know the details. It doesn't really matter for this vote as all other factors being equal, I think Hamertons enclosure is the best regardless.

On the subject of South Lakes - I'm assuming it was designed as mixed enclosure in which case the design itself was inherently flawed. I never saw it though (never been to South Lakes) so can't really comment.

I wouldn't say that Chester were breeding jaguars just fine before they were stopped by the EEP, as I don't count still born litters, as a breeding even though they had at least one litter that were still born.

I agree - I can't see who you would consider that successful.

But again to answer your question @ThylacineAlive - I don't know whether all the individuals being discussed in these polls are "completely capable of breeding". Maybe you have all the answers on that front - but I do not.

You've got to think a lack of breeding where there are multiple pairings possible (penguins for instance) could indicate an issue specifically with the environment. However, where there is a small pool of individuals involved the possibility of infertility / compatability / behavioural issues specifically with those indivduals is greater imo.

 

[ShonenJake13]

@Zia - what you’re saying about the husbandry not necessarily being relevant - I understand that, and I’m not (surprisingly!) trying to cause an argument as we are in agreement over which enclosure is better!

However, I would count enclosure design as husbandry, and for me personally I think that an animal dying despite the diet and care being recommended by Australia should not be ignored. Hamerton are the better enclosure regardless (ESPECIALLY because of the depth of soil and because they have a breeding setup which has worked), but it’s also important that people know things that they didn’t previously in a competition like this. This is about the discussion of the exhibits and therefore each zoo’s husbandry. And the fact is that some people may have voted Longleat without knowing about the death of a wombat, and that that MAY play a part for some people.

In the meantime, I’m with TLD here - I’d like to know why three of the four voters for Longleat have done so. Not because I believe they’re wrong (as I’ve said before, and for the koalas too, Longleat have a decent setup), but because I’m curious to know given the overwhelming majority of votes for Hamerton.

 

[TNT]

Another point that I don't think has been mentioned - whilst the Hamerton exhibit is generally better overall, I would say that from an aesthetics point of view, Longleat would take the lead... Especially to your everyday zoo visitor.

 

[Andrew Swales]

As you can imagine, I have been watching this this thread with interest. There are two points to perhaps consider, which have not been mentioned already.
* along with many of these votes, the thread is naive. In this case, comparison is being made between two very distinct species requiring different care and possibly accommodation.
* the design of the enclosure, and the experience of the staff, have to be approved by both the exporting zoo and the Australian Government.

 

[Zia]

However, I would count enclosure design as husbandry, and for me personally I think that an animal dying despite the diet and care being recommended by Australia should not be ignored..

I don't necessarily disagree - but there is also more to husbandry than the enclosure design. To say it was a 'husbandry issue' doesn't answer the question of whether the death was as a direct result of the enclosure design. It is good to make people aware of issues they might not have known about - but it is difficult when the issue is merely alluded to and is from unknown sources.

Again though - it all comes down to what you are rating and what the issue was. Let's just say the issue was incorrect diet. If the enclosure is great but the diet was not - does that make the enclosure itself inherently bad? If you then provide the correct diet, does the enclosure become great again or is is forever tainted by what might have been one persons error / lack of experience?

 

[Andrew Swales]

I don't necessarily disagree - but there is also more to husbandry than the enclosure design. To say it was a 'husbandry issue' doesn't answer the question of whether the death was as a direct result of the enclosure design. It is good to make people aware of issues they might not have known about - but it is difficult when the issue is merely alluded to and is from unknown sources.

Again though - it all comes down to what you are rating and what the issue was. Let's just say the issue was incorrect diet. If the enclosure is great but the diet was not - does that make the enclosure itself inherently bad? If you then provide the correct diet, does the enclosure become great again or is is forever tainted by what might have been one persons error / lack of experience?

The diets, care, staffing, enclosure, Vets, all protocols, are ALL covered in the Australian Ambassador Agreements, and signed off in a formal tripartite contract... It is a very thorough process.

 

[britishzoofan]

along with many of these votes, the thread is naive. In this case, comparison is being made between two very distinct species requiring different care and possibly accommodation.

This is true that they are different species. However, in my view they are similar enough to make a comparison.

 

[Zia]

The diets, care, staffing, enclosure, Vets, all protocols, are ALL covered in the Australian Ambassador Agreements, and signed off in a formal tripartite contract... It is a very thorough process.

To be clear - I'm not saying there is / was any issue with any of the things you have mentioned and I have no doubt the process is thorough. I do not know how or why the animal died. @ThylacineAlive believes it was a husbandry issue. I tend not to just believe what I read on the internet so I remain neutral on the subject.

It would be interesting to know what the result of breaching what is set out in the Australian Ambassador Agreements if you are able to say though? Maybe I am a bit naive but if all of this is set out and assessed - you would think breaching it to the point an animal (or two) dies would result in some kind penalty or permit withdrawal?

 

[Shirokuma]

Another point that I don't think has been mentioned - whilst the Hamerton exhibit is generally better overall, I would say that from an aesthetics point of view, Longleat would take the lead... Especially to your everyday zoo visitor.

That’s exactly why I voted for Longleat as from an outsider’s point of view and having had a look for other pictures of each enclosure to me it is much more attractive. But I have no idea about soil depth or husbandry issues and realistically I don’t think we should be expected to know everything in such detail before we vote on what is supposed to be a fun poll.

 

[britishzoofan]

That’s exactly why I voted for Longleat as from an outsider’s point of view and having had a look for other pictures of each enclosure to me it is much more attractive. But I have no idea about soil depth or husbandry issues and realistically I don’t think we should be expected to know everything in such detail before we vote on what is supposed to be a fun poll.

Yes, you are exactly right.
The only thing I would suggest that would improve the polls and this is not directed at you at all, but for those who haven't visited the collections/many to take into account arguments made by those who have and not be afraid to change their vote once more information has been made available.

 

[Andrew Swales]

It would be interesting to know what the result of breaching what is set out in the Australian Ambassador Agreements if you are able to say though? Maybe I am a bit naive but if all of this is set out and assessed - you would think breaching it to the point an animal (or two) dies would result in some kind penalty or permit withdrawal?

Sorry, I cant comment, as I don't know. An Ambassador Agreement is produced by the Australian Government and signed by the Minister. If there were ever any 'breach', I would expect that every such situation would be dealt with individually.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

That’s exactly why I voted for Longleat as from an outsider’s point of view and having had a look for other pictures of each enclosure to me it is much more attractive.

Not sure how you managed that given the fact the photograph of the Longleat exhibit is the only one in the gallery

But I have no idea about soil depth or husbandry issues and realistically I don’t think we should be expected to know everything in such detail before we vote on what is supposed to be a fun poll.

A fair point - but equally such factors should be taken into consideration once highlighted

 

[amur leopard]

Not sure how you managed that given the fact the photograph of the Longleat exhibit is the only one in the gallery

Well... There is this one, although it is of the indoor exhibit :

Boy am I pedantic

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Boy am I pedantic

Indeed I was taking it as read that a featureless window wasn't what was being referred to!

 

[Shirokuma]

Not sure how you managed that given the fact the photograph of the Longleat exhibit is the only one in the gallery

I managed it using the magic of Google.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I managed it using the magic of Google.

Fair enough fancy posting some of them here? Looking on Google myself all I can find is a handful of CGI mock-ups of the entire Koala/Wombat complex by the design firm that planned the exhibit, and these seem to show only the Koala segment.

 

[britishzoofan]

Fair enough fancy posting some of them here? Looking on Google myself all I can find is a handful of CGI mock-ups of the entire Koala/Wombat complex by the design firm that planned the exhibit, and these seem to show only the Koala segment.

A quick question related to this. If I'm unable to find a photo of an exhibit in the gallery but can find one on google. Would I be ok to post it on here assuming I acknowledge where I found it?

 

[TeaLovingDave]

A quick question related to this. If I'm unable to find a photo of an exhibit in the gallery but can find one on google. Would I be ok to post it on here assuming I acknowledge where I found it?

Indeed - as long as a photo is attributed to a source and used for illustration purposes I believe it is okay to post it within a thread.

It is not, of course, okay to upload the image to the gallery as if it were your own