Melbourne Zoo Betsy has died

[Pertinax]

Coco and Pucker should NEVER have left Africa. Dian FDossey fought for them to stay but she was overruled as they were some sort of diplomatic gift to Germany, though Cologne Zoo should really have refused to be a part of it.

I saw them twice, once soon after their arrival, when they were alert and active... and once shortly before they died, when they weren't... They died within a few months of each other, after a totally pointless zoo life.

 

[gentle lemur]

I saw them too
Cologne was not a bad zoo on the whole, but the ape house was utterly horrible - far below acceptable standards even then.

Alan

 

[Pertinax]

If I remember, it was a Bird or tropical house, with Ape cages at one(or both?)end. Basel's old house, where the early gorillas were born, was rather similar.

I have some press clippings from the period which indicate Cologne thought Coco and Pucker were male and female. I don't know how long it took them to discover they weren't.... Seeing them the 2nd time was one of my most depressing zoo experiences ever.

 

[kiang]

cheers pertinax i had always thought that m'bongo and ngagi were mountain gorilla thanks for clearing that up m8.

 

[gentle lemur]

If I remember, it was a Bird or tropical house, with Ape cages at one(or both?)end. Basel's old house, where the early gorillas were born, was rather similar.

I think the ape cages at Cologne were at both ends of the house - I don't remember the middle, but there certainly could have been aviaries. I vividly remember a big sad male orang in a very small, tiled, indoor 'cell' at the left hand end. There was no outdoor enclosure at all (I remember reading a description of an orang in a little box-like cage in one of Gerald Durrell's books - it could easily have been the same one). The gorillas had a wired outdoor cage, which was shaped rather like the cap of a mushroom, round and low.
The old gorilla cages at Basel (which held ruffed lemurs when I saw them) were much larger (and in particular, taller). My memories from 1973 are quite clear and specific. But you know what memories are like - they can be very deceptive; even clear and specific memories can be wrong

Alan

 

[Pertinax]

cheers pertinax i had always thought that m'bongo and ngagi were mountain gorilla thanks for clearing that up m8.

I think they were referred to as 'mountain' gorillas throughout much of their lives. Their exact provenance was only described later on, either during their life at San Diego, or after they died. They arrived not as the usual little babies but as 4/5 year olds and went on to live long healthy lives at San Diego- its a pity both were male as they just might have bred otherwise.

'N'gagi' in particular was a superb specimen, M'Bongo was fatter and more 'jolly' He died first- of 'valleyfever' (inhaled fungal spores from hay bedding), after about 10 years in the zoo (a good life in those days) Before he died they aquired two little female lowland Gorillas as potential 'mates' for the two males, but they were never introduced and died quite quickly after their arrival. N'gagi died not long after.

 

[Pertinax]

The old gorilla cages at Basel (which held ruffed lemurs when I saw them) were much larger (and in particular, taller).
Alan

I never saw the Gorillas in the old cages at Basel- my first visit they were already in the moderen Apehouse. I remember being surprised though at how small the old cages seemed, particularly the inside ones. The male 'Steffi' would have filled his!

On the subject of mountain gorillas, do you know anything about the Antwerp female 'Amohoro' ? Her provenance seems undecided. I have seen several photos of her- definately an 'Eastern' gorilla (jet black) but she doesn't seem quite right for either 'Graueri' or 'Beringei'

I wondered if she's from the Bwindi Forest population?- they are said to have characteristics of both the others...

 

[Pertinax]

. The gorillas had a wired outdoor cage, which was shaped rather like the cap of a mushroom, round and low.
Alan

... and if my memory serves me, it was green-painted and gloomy. The two gorillas were in that outdoor cage the 2nd time I saw them..

I've only seen pictures of it, but the existing enclosure for Cologne's Lowland Gorilla group is very highly rated- the outdoor is circular and open to the sky in the centre but is roofed around the perimeter to afford them cover- which is a good design...

 

[gentle lemur]

On the subject of mountain gorillas, do you know anything about the Antwerp female 'Amohoro' ? Her provenance seems undecided. I have seen several photos of her- definately an 'Eastern' gorilla (jet black) but she doesn't seem quite right for either 'Graueri' or 'Beringei'

I wondered if she's from the Bwindi Forest population?- they are said to have characteristics of both the others...

I've only seen photos, and I agree that she does look rather different. You may well be right, but gorillas are fairly variable (or perhaps we can just recognise their individual differences more easily than we can for species less like us). I think it's a question that may never be answered with certainty.
I think Antwerp's graueri came from Charles Cordier, as Chester's did. He is mentioned in George Schaller's book 'Year of the gorilla', if I remember correctly he claimed that he trapped young animals without killing adults - but I'm not sure whether that was really true.
I have photos of Kisubu, Kaisi and Kivu and also of some of the Basel gorillas of that era. I'll have to dig them out.

Alan

 

[Pertinax]

I've only seen photos, and I agree that she does look rather different.
I think Antwerp's graueri came from Charles Cordier, as Chester's did. He is mentioned in George Schaller's book 'Year of the gorilla', if I remember correctly he claimed that he trapped young animals without killing adults
I have photos of Kisubu, Kaisi and Kivu and also of some of the Basel gorillas of that era. I'll have to dig them out.

Alan

1. If I had to choose I'd say she was an Eastern Lowland, but she doesn't look quite right...

2. Antwerp's probably came from Cordier too, certainly Chester's pair did- they are mentioned by name in 'Year of the Gorilla.'

3.I have a couple of postcards of Antwerp gorillas- Kaisi(?) and also female 'Quivu' with baby Victoria (before she was removed) They also had a pair of Lowland Gorillas living in that house which NEVER went outside- terrible. The female 'Kora' was at one time the oldest in Europe, poor old thing died recently at 'Touroparc Romaneche' in France where at least she had access to the fresh air.

4. Basel gorillas were great- some were superb-looking animals, especially Stephi(great grandfather to the current Melbourne youngsters) and his 2nd son 'Migger'. You can still see the 'family likeness' in the breeding females 'Quarta' and 'Faddama'(daughter and granddaughter) today.