Zoo Wuppertal Bili the Bonobo

I’d really like to know ‘the truth’ because I know full well how hard great ape introductions can be, and how brutal it can appear but I also know some of them just are not the right thing, the animal is not accepted in that group and sometimes they end up dead. Do they just push it and push it until he dies because that’s what the breeding recommendation is or is there genuinely positive signs in this group that it will be successful?
 
littleRedPanda said:
I noticed someone posted a link on the Twycross facebook regarding Bili the Bonobo, who is having a rough time here. The article i've posted says euthanasia has been suggested by the zoo ... surely not :(

Heartbreaking pictures of British chimp being bullied in German zoo by other primates | Metro News
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OrangePerson said:
I’d really like to know ‘the truth’ because I know full well how hard great ape introductions can be, and how brutal it can appear but I also know some of them just are not the right thing, the animal is not accepted in that group and sometimes they end up dead. Do they just push it and push it until he dies because that’s what the breeding recommendation is or is there genuinely positive signs in this group that it will be successful?
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I would advise everyone on this forum to talk carefully about this matter. A lot of controversy has already been caused by some institutions that claim to be experts claiming that what can be seen in published photos and videos is 'not normal behaviour', and the last thing Zoochat needs is another reason for it to be seen as an untrustworthy source/rumour mill. Wuppertal have decades experience working with apes, they have been keeping bonobos successfully for close to 40 years, and are also known for their successful care of orangutans, chimpanzees and gorillas. They know exactly what they're doing.
Bonobos are also chimpanzees (as in of the genus Pan), and anyone who knows a thing about chimps should know that they can be very violent towards one another and that social conflict is a norm for them, as it would be for any species living in a multi male/multi female society, and especially so during introductions as they attempt to sort out their new hierarchy.
Wuppertal have published updates on Facebook talking about how Bili's introductions are going 'as planned' and how euthanasia is NOT ON THE TABLE. If the introductions truly fail (and they aren't) then he will be rehomed within the breeding programme (so to any of the nine other zoos in Europe with the species). He will go through this type of treatment WHEREVER HE GOES, and this is not because the zoos are doing anything wrong, but because as a motherless male (he was born at Twycross but his mother rejected him, hence him being moved to Frankfurt and raised by keepers for the first year of his life, before being accepted by adoptive bonobo females) he has an incredibly low ranking in the group to begin with as a fundamental of bonobo society is that females are the boss and males rely on their mothers for protection and a place in the hierarchy.
Also before anyone from the Monkey World/Wales Ape and Monkey Sanctuary fan clubs start, these two sanctuaries are not viable options - Monkey World, whilst having plenty of experience with rehoming and resocialising chimpanzees, do NOT keep bonobos and know perfectly well that what Bili is going through is normal, hence them not making any moves. WAMS, from personal observation of their social media, love a good scandal and are merely posting about their plans to 'rescue Bili' without any thought into a) what the plan would be for him were they to actually receive him (never going to happen) - are they going to keep him alone as they too have no bonobos?? And b) considering they have eight chimpanzees themselves (it is alarming that they do not consider that bonobos are the same as chimpanzees, and that violence isn't normal in introductions for Pan).

So, to conclude, no Bili will not be put down if introductions fail, yes Wuppertal know what they're doing, and no the introductions are not going badly, he is merely experiencing what ANY other motherless bonobo male would experience when being introduced to another group.

From my observations of the behaviour seen in a published video on YouTube, the twin males in the group (both will be eight this year) who also happen to be the sons of the alpha female, are tormenting Bili and he, when chasing them off, is promptly attacked by the alpha and thus the alpha male and the other two females. The other adult male in the group is actually seen PROTECTING Bili towards the end of the video...so this is certainly a start. If he can learn to ignore the twins and accept the alpha female, he should be fine in my opinion.
 
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ShonenJake13 said:
I would advise everyone on this forum to talk carefully about this matter. A lot of controversy has already been caused by some institutions that claim to be experts claiming that what can be seen in published photos and videos is 'not normal behaviour', and the last thing Zoochat needs is another reason for it to be seen as an untrustworthy source/rumour mill.
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I think the last thing ZooChat needs is members trying to suppress debate and stop other users chatting about zoos. If people post stuff you disagree with or know to be factually inaccurate just tell them.

Everything else you wrote I either agree with or am happy to hear.
 
FunkyGibbon said:
I think the last thing ZooChat needs is members trying to suppress debate and stop other users chatting about zoos. If people post stuff you disagree with or know to be factually inaccurate just tell them.

Everything else you wrote I either agree with or am happy to hear.
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I’m not trying to suppress debate, I’m just getting tired of seeing this story all over social media and seeing people responding without knowing the facts. The post above is not intended to stop people talking about the subject, but rather to try and shed some light on what might be going through the zoo’s, and apes’, minds.
ZooChat has been used in the past by some individuals as a source of information when reporting on certain matters (eg Marius the giraffe), and I would rather minimise the amount of posts using falsified or exaggerated information as sources, something I’m sure Wuppertal and the EEP are also keen for. If someone wants to start a debate on, as OrangePerson said, when is enough enough re ape introductions etc, then I am happy to take part!
 
ShonenJake13 said:
I’m not trying to suppress debate, I’m just getting tired of seeing this story all over social media and seeing people responding without knowing the facts. The post above is not intended to stop people talking about the subject, but rather to try and shed some light on what might be going through the zoo’s, and apes’, minds.
ZooChat has been used in the past by some individuals as a source of information when reporting on certain matters (eg Marius the giraffe), and I would rather minimise the amount of posts using falsified or exaggerated information as sources, something I’m sure Wuppertal and the EEP are also keen for. If someone wants to start a debate on, as OrangePerson said, when is enough enough re ape introductions etc, then I am happy to take part!
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I think this problem, whether it is media erroneously treating the site as a source of expertise or anti-zoo activists using it to find examples of bad enclosures etc, may well be a real one, but it isn't exactly common. When people say 'we need to be really careful here' a lot of users are going to be scared off from commenting and I don't think that's particularly healthy.

As a place where people discuss rumours it is inevitable that sometimes wrong information will be shared. In my personal opinion to expect otherwise is holding the site to an unnecessarily high standard.

In this case it was widely reported that Wuppertal were considering euthanisation. I imagine most of us were pretty sure that this was false, but it's only now that this topic is actually being discussed on the site that I had heard a denial of that. I'd rather focus on the benefits of an informed post like yours instead of the hypothetical negatives of someone repeating what they had read in the national press.
 
FunkyGibbon said:
I think this problem, whether it is media erroneously treating the site as a source of expertise or anti-zoo activists using it to find examples of bad enclosures etc, may well be a real one, but it isn't exactly common. When people say 'we need to be really careful here' a lot of users are going to be scared off from commenting and I don't think that's particularly healthy.

As a place where people discuss rumours it is inevitable that sometimes wrong information will be shared. In my personal opinion to expect otherwise is holding the site to an unnecessarily high standard.

In this case it was widely reported that Wuppertal were considering euthanisation. I imagine most of us were pretty sure that this was false, but it's only now that this topic is actually being discussed on the site that I had heard a denial of that. I'd rather focus on the benefits of an informed post like yours instead of the hypothetical negatives of someone repeating what they had read in the national press.
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That’s fair, I can see how my wording would cause a reaction such as that. At least from here on any discussion on the subject will be better informed!! :)
 
I should apologise for my lazy post ... I had actually seen the facebook statement from Wuppertal dismissing the claim.
I should also apologise for not editing another 'news' post I made elsewhere
 
I thought there'd been a mix up in reports as to the proposed destination for Bili, but the Welsh sanctuary (and not Monkey World as in some reports) really is pushing for access to the Bonobo. They have asked on facebook for support from their followers and a template drawn up by one poster has referred to the bonobo as a monkey.
 
A friend and myself have been watching the story of Bili quite closely now and after a bit of investigation, we found the origin of the reference to Bili facing euthanasia which Wuppertal have denied. From the paper via private message to ourselves

"According to my colleague Katharina Rüth, Arne Lawrenz used the term "euthanasia" in conversation with her. As she further said, it was meant to emphasize that beeing alone without any fellow species would be the worst for Bili. "

We have now asked if the term might have been taken out of context as euthanasia was not contained within the quote that outraged so many. I doubt the publisher will confirm this either way.
 
littleRedPanda said:
I thought there'd been a mix up in reports as to the proposed destination for Bili, but the Welsh sanctuary (and not Monkey World as in some reports) really is pushing for access to the Bonobo. They have asked on facebook for support from their followers and a template drawn up by one poster has referred to the bonobo as a monkey.
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Meanwhile both the zoo and VDZ have clearly stated that a move to the Welsh Sanctuary have admitted that the "sanctuary" doesn't keep any Bonobo nor do they have any experience with Bonobo care.

The latest update from the zoo sounds moderately positive on the introduction of Bili and some steps have been made:

Positive Entwicklungen bei den Bonobos

Bei der Eingewöhnung des Bonobo-Mannes Bili, bei der sich der Grüne Zoo Wuppertal um eine Entspannung innerhalb der Gruppe bemüht, zeigt sich aktuell eine positive Entwicklung.
Aktuell befindet er sich wechselweise und in unterschiedlichen Konstellationen zusammen mit den übrigen Gruppenmitgliedern, um die sozialen Beziehungen zwischen den Tieren zu stärken. Während die Aggressionen gegen ihn zurückgegangen sind, zeigte sich Bili auch in Anwesenheit des dominanten Weibchens entspannter und es konnten positive Kontakte (z.B. Grooming) mit anderen Artgenossen beobachtet werden. Der Grüne Zoo hofft, dass diese erfreuliche Entwicklung weiter anhält, auch wenn es bei der Integration von Bili natürlich auch wieder zu Rückschlägen kommen kann.

Verschiedene fachlich versierte Institutionen wie der Europäische Zooverband EAZA, der Verband der Zoologischen Gärten VdZ oder das Jane Goodall Institut, dessen Vertreter sich am gestrigen Montag im Grünen Zoo selbst ein Bild gemacht hat, teilen die Einschätzung, dass Bili die Integration in die soziale Bonobogruppe ermöglicht werden sollte. Eine Unterbringung ohne Kontakt zu Artgenossen, wie sie von einigen Tierrechtlern und dem Betreiber eines Tierparkes in Wales gefordert wird, ist für alle Fachleute dagegen übereinstimmend keine Option.

Der Grüne Zoo hofft, dass seine Information sowie die Aussagen der verschiedenen Verbände und Institutionen (auf den jeweiligen Webseiten der entsprechenden Institutionen abrufbar) zu einer Versachlichung der Diskussion beitragen. Interessierte Gäste, die den Grünen Zoo besuchen möchten, können sich im Menschenaffenhaus jederzeit selbst einen eigenen Eindruck von Bili und den anderen Bonobos machen. Trotz der Einschränkungen durch die aufgestellten Kameras, mit der die Bonobos zurzeit durchgehend beobachtet werden, ist ein ungehinderter Blick in die Anlage der Bonobos vom Besucherraum aus möglich.
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lintworm said:
Meanwhile both the zoo and VDZ have clearly stated that a move to the Welsh Sanctuary have admitted that the "sanctuary" doesn't keep any Bonobo nor do they have any experience with Bonobo care.
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I had asked @Crowthorne about posting the Wuppertal leaflet which WAMS claimed was libellous pretty much says that; not libellous, just facts. I'll post it now in the Wuppertal gallery and would be grateful for a 'proper' translation :)
 
My grasp of German is far too plodding and shaky to manage a full translation, but skimming it for meaning I managed to locate the key sentence and translate it in full:

Eine Unterbringung in einem Tierpark, der keinerlei Erfahrung in der Haltung von Bonobos hat und diese Tierart auch gar nicht pflegt, wurde zudem zur Folge haben, dass Bili sein weiteres Leben in sozialer isolation verbringen wurde.

"Housing in an animal park which has no experience in the husbandry of bonobos, and also does not care for this species, would result in Bili spending the rest of his life in social isolation."

As @lintworm notes, this is entirely true and not libellous in the slightest - it rather seems that WAMS is deliberately interpreting "does not care for" to mean "does not care about" in order to make themselves appear the victims, when it is clear from context that the intended meaning is "does not keep".
 
TeaLovingDave said:
As @lintworm notes, this is entirely true and not libellous in the slightest - it rather seems that WAMS is deliberately interpreting "does not care for" to mean "does not care about" in order to make themselves appear the victims, when it is clear from context that the intended meaning is "does not keep".
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We've been relaying this through facebook since the weekend. There have been a few other comments on their facebook where they come across as pure ignorant and choosing to misinterpret posts on the zoo's page.
 
My friend asked someone to post the latest video of Bili on youtube to be posted on the WAMS facebook. He is alone (edit: actually he isn't and looks positively excited about his company :) ), but it doesn't show violence, signs of ill health or shocking conditions, so I expect WAMS will delete the post, or attack it.
 
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littleRedPanda said:
My friend asked someone to post the latest video of Bili on youtube to be posted on the WAMS facebook. He is alone (edit: actually he isn't and looks positively excited about his company :) ), but it doesn't show violence, signs of ill health or shocking conditions, so I expect WAMS will delete the post, or attack it.
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He is with Mato the elderly male that has befriended him :) fingers crossed that the rest can be mixed with him soon!
 
ShonenJake13 said:
He is with Mato the elderly male that has befriended him :) fingers crossed that the rest can be mixed with him soon!
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Indeed.
However, it appears the fision-fusion method of integration the zoo are attempting does "not follow protocol" according to WAMS. One thing I do agree with WAMS is the set up of the ape house, allowing only partial access to the shared outdoor area. Saying that, do apes really crave the outdoor climate of our countries?
 
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