SeaWorld San Diego Bill introduced to ban captive orcas in California

azcheetah2 said:
I'm for stopping the shows, but against any sort of release. The shows have gotten so ridiculous anyway, there's no education in it, in my opinion, like there used to be. However, if they stop the shows they would still need to provide some sort of mental stimulation for the whales. They can't leave them just to swim around in circles all day.
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I go to Mystic Aquarium every couple of years. A lot of their animals aren't involved in any kind of formal "show" as I would define it, but they are kept occupied. For example their beluga's mostly seem to get fed during training sessions that happen in full view of the public; they have to work for their food kind of. Usually someone is there lecturing. They do get fed no matter what though. Same with most of the seals and sea lions. I've seen what they do at Vancouver Aquarium on youtube and I like that.
 
wensleydale said:
I go to Mystic Aquarium every couple of years. A lot of their animals aren't involved in any kind of formal "show" as I would define it, but they are kept occupied. For example their beluga's mostly seem to get fed during training sessions that happen in full view of the public; they have to work for their food kind of. Usually someone is there lecturing. They do get fed no matter what though. Same with most of the seals and sea lions. I've seen what they do at Vancouver Aquarium on youtube and I like that.
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A number of zoos and aquariums use training as enrichment for their animals, even if they don't do any shows. Houston Zoo does a bit of elephant training to keep them occupied, but you can only see a couple of the tricks once a day if you go to the keeper talk. When Keiko the orca was held at the Oregon Coast Aquarium, he wasn't doing any shows, but he still did training for both enrichment and socialization. (since there weren't any other orcas in the tank)
 
wensleydale said:
I go to Mystic Aquarium every couple of years. A lot of their animals aren't involved in any kind of formal "show" as I would define it, but they are kept occupied. For example their beluga's mostly seem to get fed during training sessions that happen in full view of the public; they have to work for their food kind of. Usually someone is there lecturing. They do get fed no matter what though. Same with most of the seals and sea lions. I've seen what they do at Vancouver Aquarium on youtube and I like that.
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While this isn't a formal show as you said, it still might fall under that classification since there's a trainer talking to the audience as they're doing a training session. A true training session, if they're not training for a show, would not involve jumps and flips. Granted, I'm not very knowledgable about belugas and their training, my expertise is more dolphins and orca. In my opinion, if there's a trainer talking officially to the public while doing any sort of session, it could still be classified as a show: people are watching and animals are doing trick-like behaviors. But since training sessions usually involve behaviors included in the shows, I don't know. It's a tough situation because it would be difficult to have training sessions without the public being able to watch. When the public starts to watch they might start asking questions. When people ask questions and a trainer or educator answers the questions, it could constitute a show.

So then what? Eliminate the music. The costumes. The silliness. Do like they do when a baby is born...allow people to sit in the stadium while the whales are allowed to swim around and do whatever they want to do. Some of the whales have favorite toys they like to play with. Some of them play with each other like kids. Some of them like to try to catch the birds that land nearby. Whales can be fun and amusing to watch without the whole show thing.
 
By your definition then any sort of keeper talking about an animal whilst also asking it for behaviours(including husbandry behaviours) or even showing the actual training while talking is considered a show.

Also seriously, people asking questions and seeking to gain information being considered a show !?! That is the complete opposite of a conventional marine mammal show. As well, a training session is anything, as long as the animal is being taught. Training a front flip ?? Training session. Training for blood draws ?? Training session. A training session is a training session is a training session.

Watching animals swim around and do what they do, while someone speaks ? That is merely have an interpreter present while the animals go about their own affairs, and nothing more. It would be a bland presentation to the public, and would hinge on the animals not being able to be viewed at any other times aside from these "presentations" to have any sort of major appeal, especially if there is no new born calf present. There is also a large need to keep the public interested and wanting to come back, and you get that (for the most part) from shows and training presentations. Its also a sad waste to the animals. Training is a major source of stimulation for the animals and most animals quite enjoy both training and show sessions.

An educational session in its best form would show animals demonstrating behaviours they would do in nature, while an educator gives an educational presentation, and then having someone present to answer any questions ever.
 
I heard Kalia is pregnant (I checked Cetabase to be sure). Hopefully this won't fire up anyone and make the debate even less civil. I heard that it was an AI from Ulises, but who knows how Kalia conceived, the two are in together, aren't they?
 
wensleydale said:
I heard Kalia is pregnant (I checked Cetabase to be sure). Hopefully this won't fire up anyone and make the debate even less civil. I heard that it was an AI from Ulises, but who knows how Kalia conceived, the two are in together, aren't they?
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I keep hearing AI as well. Yeah, they're both in San Diego, but AI may have been used in an attempt to ensure a pregnancy. Ulisses only has one calf and it isn't even in a SeaWorld park, so SW may have wanted to ensure more calves from him for the sake of genetic diversity. She is rather young for breeding, so she may have resisted any attempts by Ulisses to breed, assuming he made any at all. There are also rumors that SW is planning on sending Kalia to San Antonio soon, but, those are also just rumors for now. Wonder how that will affect the debate, if it turns out to be true.
 
I know and regularly speak to one of the trainers from San Diego, so I can shed some light on this.

Kalia IS pregnant. The calf was conceived via artificial insemination. She's due in late December. The father is most likely Ulises. Him and Kalia have been mating a lot over the past year and a half and actually get along very well (especially since the birth of Kasatka's calf Makani), However she was artificially inseminated with Ulises, and small traces from one or two other males that they had stored in their freezers, however I don't have confirmation on which males they were.

Also the likely hood of Kalia being moved is very, very slim. There is a good chance its just a false rumour made up by a certain ex-trainer who wants to stir things up and keep the spotlight on himself. Aside from that, there are already 3 Kasatka clan whales at San Antonio (Kalias half sister and 2 nieces), so moving her would just be redundant. As well, Kalia is participating in a hearing study that will be carrying on for several more months that she received extensive training for, and that San Antonio is not participating in currently.

And quite frankly, I am much more inclined to believe the trainer I know who worked with orcas as recently as fall of 2013 and is still with the company, as opposed to an ex-trainer who left in 2012 and left under not good circumstances. He is constantly vying to stay in the spot light and seems to say or do anything to help keep him there.
 
Hyak_II said:
By your definition then any sort of keeper talking about an animal whilst also asking it for behaviours(including husbandry behaviours) or even showing the actual training while talking is considered a show.

Also seriously, people asking questions and seeking to gain information being considered a show !?! That is the complete opposite of a conventional marine mammal show. As well, a training session is anything, as long as the animal is being taught. Training a front flip ?? Training session. Training for blood draws ?? Training session. A training session is a training session is a training session.

Watching animals swim around and do what they do, while someone speaks ? That is merely have an interpreter present while the animals go about their own affairs, and nothing more. It would be a bland presentation to the public, and would hinge on the animals not being able to be viewed at any other times aside from these "presentations" to have any sort of major appeal, especially if there is no new born calf present. There is also a large need to keep the public interested and wanting to come back, and you get that (for the most part) from shows and training presentations. Its also a sad waste to the animals. Training is a major source of stimulation for the animals and most animals quite enjoy both training and show sessions.

An educational session in its best form would show animals demonstrating behaviours they would do in nature, while an educator gives an educational presentation, and then having someone present to answer any questions ever.
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What I was saying was referring only to what other people could interpret as a show and not necessarily what I would call a show. If the ban passes, that is what I was referring to...stuff that could POTENTIALLY be considered a show, not stuff I personally think would be a show.
 
Hyak_II said:
I know and regularly speak to one of the trainers from San Diego, so I can shed some light on this.

Kalia IS pregnant. The calf was conceived via artificial insemination. She's due in late December. The father is most likely Ulises. Him and Kalia have been mating a lot over the past year and a half and actually get along very well (especially since the birth of Kasatka's calf Makani), However she was artificially inseminated with Ulises, and small traces from one or two other males that they had stored in their freezers, however I don't have confirmation on which males they were.

Also the likely hood of Kalia being moved is very, very slim. There is a good chance its just a false rumour made up by a certain ex-trainer who wants to stir things up and keep the spotlight on himself. Aside from that, there are already 3 Kasatka clan whales at San Antonio (Kalias half sister and 2 nieces), so moving her would just be redundant. As well, Kalia is participating in a hearing study that will be carrying on for several more months that she received extensive training for, and that San Antonio is not participating in currently.

And quite frankly, I am much more inclined to believe the trainer I know who worked with orcas as recently as fall of 2013 and is still with the company, as opposed to an ex-trainer who left in 2012 and left under not good circumstances. He is constantly vying to stay in the spot light and seems to say or do anything to help keep him there.
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If it's true that Kalia IS pregnant, well, I would just have to say that pisses me off. Aside from there being too many whales in San Diego to begin with and several of them having to be kept separated because they don't get along, Kalia is TOO YOUNG. If it occurred naturally, that's one thing, but to force the pregnancy on her is dispicable, in my opinion, because she's too young. Most wild orca don't start having babies until they're 13 or 14.

I've long been a supporter of Sea World. I've gone there for many years, but this might be the last straw. People can try and slant this however they like with Kalia's age and being pregnant, but when it comes right down to it, VERY FEW whales give birth this young in the wild and since it didn't occur through natural matings, I think it's horrendous that they're artificially inseminated her.

I will continue to support Sea World with their rescue and rehabilitation of seals, sea lions and turtles, but... No. I can't support them any longer for anything else.
 
azcheetah2 said:
If it's true that Kalia IS pregnant, well, I would just have to say that pisses me off. Aside from there being too many whales in San Diego to begin with and several of them having to be kept separated because they don't get along, Kalia is TOO YOUNG. If it occurred naturally, that's one thing, but to force the pregnancy on her is dispicable, in my opinion, because she's too young. Most wild orca don't start having babies until they're 13 or 14.

I've long been a supporter of Sea World. I've gone there for many years, but this might be the last straw. People can try and slant this however they like with Kalia's age and being pregnant, but when it comes right down to it, VERY FEW whales give birth this young in the wild and since it didn't occur through natural matings, I think it's horrendous that they're artificially inseminated her.

I will continue to support Sea World with their rescue and rehabilitation of seals, sea lions and turtles, but... No. I can't support them any longer for anything else.
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They've bred young orcas before, (though I'm not sure how many have been a result of AI) and yeah, it really sucks. Even with young breedings that occur naturally, that can be questionable as well, depending on the situation. If a young female orca doesn't have a way to get away from a male orca trying to mate, she could get pregnant whether she intends to mate or not.

On that note, I'm glad to hear that she won't be moved.
 
To be honest I'm not entirely pleased with Kalias pregnancy myself either. She is still a small whale, and rather young. She still acts like a calf most of the time. I wish they would have waited for her to be AT LEAST 10 and a half before inseminating her. It would have given her two more years to grow, and additionally, she would have been 12 at the birth, as opposed to barely ten.

However, what's done is done. And that said, Kalia is in the best possible position of any young captive female to give birth to her first calf. She has her excellent and very experienced mother to be with her at the birth, and a loving older brother to be with her right after. She also has an incredibly smart younger brother, and from him Kalia had already seen how to be an excellent mother, being present for his birth and spending most of her time with him. So in all Kalia has an excellent support team in her mother, older brother, and "aunt" Orkid to assist her with raising her calf, and she will have almost two years experience with her younger brother, which has certainly helped her learn how to care for a calf.

It also represents an important milestone in orca captivity, as this will be the first 4th generation captive born calf! Kalia being the first third generation, her father being the first second generation, and her grandmother being the first first generation, respectively.

Also unrelated, but all of the orcas at San Diego get along quite well now. They can work all 10 of them together at once in one pool with no problems, and they regularly leave all the gates open giving the animals access to the full facility and letting them interact with each other as they please. The only two that can't be together alone are Ulises and Corky, and as long as Orkid or Kasatka are present they generally get along all right.

Edit: Also yes, orcas have been bred young before.

Wikie was artificially inseminated at 8 years old and gave birth to a healthy calf named moana
Kalina(Kalias grandmother) became naturally pregnant at age 5 and gave birth to Kalias father Keet at age 7.
Taima conceived naturally at age 7 and gave birth to sumar at age 9.
Kohana (Kalias niece) became naturally pregnant at age 7 and gave birth to Adan at age 8.
 
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I'm uncomfortable with the suggestion that a wild orca would just swim away. They tend to not stray far from each other under any circumstances. Humans don't just walk away from their families when someone treats them badly (believe me I know). And there's no saying that the other whale couldn't just follow them. And besides, isn't Kalia capable of letting Uli have it? I've seen her on youtube pushing him around (albeit for the brief period that they were being filmed). I've heard that Katina and Kayla in Orlando push Tilikum around to the point that they are mostly kept away from each other (I do not want to get into a Tilikum welfare conversation).

I was hoping it would be Shouka that was expecting, not Kalia myself actually. How is Shouka?
 
wensleydale said:
I'm uncomfortable with the suggestion that a wild orca would just swim away. They tend to not stray far from each other under any circumstances. Humans don't just walk away from their families when someone treats them badly (believe me I know). And there's no saying that the other whale couldn't just follow them. And besides, isn't Kalia capable of letting Uli have it? I've seen her on youtube pushing him around (albeit for the brief period that they were being filmed). I've heard that Katina and Kayla in Orlando push Tilikum around to the point that they are mostly kept away from each other (I do not want to get into a Tilikum welfare conversation).

I was hoping it would be Shouka that was expecting, not Kalia myself actually. How is Shouka?
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From my understanding, wild orcas do swim away from their pods for short periods of time to mate. It's one of the few times they do separate, and it's rarely for long. But, you guys can correct me if I'm wrong. It seems Kalia was AI'd, so she's pregnant whether she mated with him or not.

This is a rather confusing topic, since the social structures in wild pods and captive ones are completely different, so it's hard to say whether the young captive females who got pregnant would've moved further away if they had the opportunity.

I haven't really heard anything negative about Shouka, so I assume she's fine.
 
Yup, Shoukas doing quite fine :)

Her, Corky, and Orkid are actually quite close, they send lots of time bonding with each other (rubbing together, playing with each others fins, etc..) and seem to have quite a close bond.
 
I'm sure this report won't help Sea World any. A 103 year old female orca, named Granny, has returned to British Columbia with her pod. A lifespan argument follows that. What I want to know is how on earth do they know shes 103 years old? I doubt they have records dating back to 1911 when she would have been born. Anyone have any idea how they could know?

103-Year-Old Killer Whale Seen Off Canadian Coast Could Mean Trouble For Sea World
 
Zoomaniac summarised things quite well in regards to granny.

Also irregardless if Granny actually is 103 or not, it means no trouble for Seaworld at all (although it adds fuel to the fire for ignorant or uneducated anti-caps) Its like saying the average age for a human is 122 because a single person lived to be that old. The average age tends to fall far below the absolute oldest specimen ever recorded with the vast majority of species, humans and orcas included.
 
I don't know how it could spell trouble for Sea World. Granny has been around for a LONG time. Whether or not she really is 103, nobody knows for 100% certain, but she's been around for a long time. Certainly longer than the 25-35 year life span Sea World claims is the standard. There's quite a few orca in the wild who are past that age so Granny isn't the exception to the rule. Sea World wants people to believe that Corky and Tokitae are the age they are due to getting great managed care in captivity. Nobody knows if they'd still be alive or not if they weren't in captivity, but they have family members in the wild still, who are older. I wish Sea World would stop saying stuff they don't know about. I'm not totally anti-Sea World, but they aren't the be all to end all experts on Orca. Fact.
 
First whoopsy I didnt know it was being discussed elsewhere. Sorry about that.

Secondly I dont think it should cause problems. As mentioned it's really only a guess at best. If they could prove it ok you have an argument. Without proof no one can say for certain how old she is but there are clearly those who want to use a guess to make their argument. Forget that little fact as HyakII mentions its probably an abnormality Granny reached that age. But the way it seems to be going with the idea of whales in captivity in the general public a report like this can be blown up easily.

I'm not anti Sea World either. I think they do fanastic things and sadly it is getting overshadowed by the whole whale argument.

By the way thanks everyone for confirming what I pretty much thought about Grannys age. Its just rough guess.
 
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