The irony here is that although the Orang enclosure looks 'shabby' they have bred several Orangs quite successfully over the years- but never a Gorilla yet.
Blackpool Zoo Blackpool Zoo, UK
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The irony here is that although the Orang enclosure looks 'shabby' they have bred several Orangs quite successfully over the years- but never a Gorilla yet.
tetrapod,
What plans exist at Blackpool now for new exhibits, improvements and projects for new animal attractions? Does Blackpool have a masterplan?
Also: How will it face the media attention that burgeoning Chester Zoo is getting deservedly (for its animal conservation emphasis and recent new zoo exhibits)?
Jelle,
I'm not sure what Blackpool's intentions are. I haven't been up there since 2003. When I left they were in the transition from council-run to a company which ran a number of aquaria and theme parks (it was their first zoo, and since then has been bought, for a handsome profit, by a Spanish group who also run a number of zoos and aquaria). There was alot of speculation at the time as to where the millions of pounds was to be spent (part of the agreement with the council - ironic given the council spent very little). As I mentioned previously an updated sealion pool with underwater-viewing was mooted. Interestingly the sealion pool was not only one of the popular exhibits, but also, in my mind, one of the more successful exhibits regarding management of animals (saltwater, sand filtration, size of pool, good breeding program, good training program). Unfortunately the exhibit was showing its age - 70s concrete everywhere, poor access, no off-display facilities beyond a couple of small rooms.
As for other parts of the zoo - a new entrance through one of the aeroplane hangers, koalas, improved restaurant and revamped bird aviary (now squirrel monkeys). I never saw nor heard of an actual masterplan, but with another change of ownership this may be in place.
Media attention has always been a problem for Blackpool. Because it looks run-down the animal-libbers were always present on sunny bank holidays (never on a wet day!). There was permanent criticism of the elephants because they are trained hands-on and the keepers use ankus and a electric shocker (only as back-up, not for training). Other criticism was given for the big cats (typical pacing around perimeter - only at feeding time) and the orangs (see previous comments).
Will Blackpool do anything to stem the flow to Chester? Probably no. In some ways there is no competition. Chester is always going to be bigger and better than Blackpool, but also more expensive. If you are already in Blackpool to look at the prom, piers, lights etc (or whatever reason people go to Blackpool) then you might visit the zoo also. They get a reasonable-sized crowd in every year for doing what they do. People who go to Blackpool for the day wouldn't even be able to spell conservation - they might hear about it during the talks but to most it is just a fun day out.
That's exactly the difference I was talking about. Blackpool is a tourist attraction in its own right, rather than the zoo. Whereas people go to Chester for a 'day out' at the Zoo. That fundamental difference will always remain.
I was not implying that Blackpool Zoo in any way compete with Chester, that is rather senseless. What I do feel is true for Blackpool Zoo is a lack of viable funding for improving conditions and presentation of wild animals at the zoo. It seems to have been THE ISSUE when the council was in charge and I wonder where the funds have been coming from since it was privatised (I personally do not believe in privatised zoos making it into conservation-minded, educational and recreational quality zoos.
What perfades from the comments by each and everyone on this subject is that for a considerable period of time no new exhibits have been forthcoming that have really improved conditions or the presentation of its inhabitants. I do feel that if Blackpool Zoo would initiate a policy of renewal, collection and masterplanning it would be able to get out of this Catch 22 closure.
Blackpool Zoo also suffers from a definite lack of unusual species - so many of its animal collection are mainstream diet in any UK zoo. This is particularly apparent in its haphazard and unpalatable grouping of ungulates and carnivores. The primate collection can be a world class, only it is not exploited to its full potential. Birds are a neglected order as are reptiles and amphibians.
I am truly convinced that we can change peoples' attitude towards the zoo and bring them into an educational and conservation zoo experience at Blackpool Zoo. If only we are prepared to put the money where our mouths are.
To really change the order of the day, we need to ask these questions:
a) What are its strengths?
b) What are its weaknesses?
c) Identify the risks and opportunities!
Some ideas worth exploring:
1. a new gorilla indoor dome (with outdoor enclosures for gorillas, mandrills, king colobus, DeBrazza's monkeys, bongos, bush pigs and inside the dome: rainforest songbirds, tortoises and turtles, other reptilians and amphibians
2. an orang utan forest with pileated gibbons, tapirs, sambar deer, Timor deer, hornbills, pittas, pheasants. Asian box turtles, false gavial or Siamese crocs.
3. a Lemur/Madagascar Woods area, not just with lemurs, but fossas, tenrecs, tortoises and other unusual reptile and amphibian species from the Dark Continents island.
4. a South American rainforest dome for its Callichtrids, spider monkeys, macaws, scarlet ibis, roseate spoonbills, ducks and forest dwelling birds, caimans, and poison arrow frogs.
5. a Himalayan mountain realm for red pandas, takins, markhors, yaks, muntjac, a langur species and birds (Himalayan monals and mountain area songbirds).
6. a Indian/Nepali terai exhibit with chital deer, nilgai, gaur and 2 pachyderm species, both Asian elephants and Indian rhinos. For others: Indian gavials, star tortoises and birds.
7. a Siberia exhibit with Amur tiger, lynx, musk deer, Dybowski's deer and elk. Birds of prey and owl exhibits. Grouse and temperate forest songbirds (nuthatch, finches).
8. an Aquarium/Insect House.
9. African savannah with giraffe, zebra, ostrich, lesser kudu, gnus, waterbuck, crowned cranes, Abyssinian hornbills and songbirds. Klipspringer, dassies, elephant shrews, leopard tortoises, nile monitors.
The power to dream should come back to 5 and dine at Blackpool Zoo. Perhaps the Parques Reunidos group can bring about that change (they are well on their way to changing the face of drab concreted Zoo de Madrid), so keep fingers crossed!!!
What do you think?????
As for other parts of the zoo - a new entrance through one of the aeroplane hangers, koalas, improved restaurant and revamped bird aviary (now squirrel monkeys). I never saw nor heard of an actual masterplan, but with another change of ownership this may be in place.
Koalas coming to Blackpool is this definately going to happen, and if so when when and where are they going?
Koalas coming to Blackpool is this definately going to happen, and if so when when and where are they going?
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
I think blackpool has come on at least a bit, certainly gorilla 'mountain' is one of the best open air gorilla facilities in the UK, and I would argue that Amazonia is also a fantastic space for primates. Even the lemur walk-through is fairly good, certainly better than some that have opened since. And at least the elephants have spacious indoor quarters, and access to a grass field and wood.
I don't think that Blackpool does have too few unusual species, the markhor, Yacare Caiman and arabian gazelle are still fairly remarkable, they had Red Kangaroos for years when nobody else did, and still have a few unusual wallabies, plus the same can be said for the north american porcupines and Red titis. Sure, other zoos are now acquiring these species, but I think it would be less wise to try and simply get new unusual species to compensate rather that stick to some very solid breeding groups, which they have done.
Their strengths are certainly with primates, and if the gorillas started breeding their facility could look very different. They have traditionally had exceptional groups of ungulates and marsupials, but then there isn't a great deal of room at Blackpool, for example the 'mixed' zebra and ostrich paddock often looks like a mud wallow during winter. But if people want giraffe and rhino, I guess that's what they'll get. Zoological treasures don't really mean anything to families who want to see characters from 'the Lion King'. How Edinburgh zoo have found the funds to finance so many unusual species being imported into the UK for display at their collections astounds me. I applaud it, but I don't see a zoo like Blackpool reviving the days of tree kangaroos or chamois sadly.
Their weaknesses are definitely in trying to bring in large hoofstock and species that will always look better at chester or knowsley than on a blowy airfield by the sea. I really think they have a knack with primates not often repeated in other UK zoos, I don't just mean the odd birth, I mean successive births to swell numbers, in the way that howletts and port lympne can. They could really carve a niche out for themselves as a major primate conservation centre, with a little sensible investment and if the gorillas started to breed, while still having room for other taxa quite comfortably. Imagine if they were as successful with woolly or owl-faced monkeys, or langurs, as with the titis or king colobus?
I don't think that Blackpool does have too few unusual species, the markhor, Yacare Caiman and arabian gazelle are still fairly remarkable, they had Red Kangaroos for years when nobody else did, and still have a few unusual wallabies, plus the same can be said for the north american porcupines and Red titis. Sure, other zoos are now acquiring these species, but I think it would be less wise to try and simply get new unusual species to compensate rather that stick to some very solid breeding groups, which they have done.
Their strengths are certainly with primates, and if the gorillas started breeding their facility could look very different. They have traditionally had exceptional groups of ungulates and marsupials, but then there isn't a great deal of room at Blackpool, for example the 'mixed' zebra and ostrich paddock often looks like a mud wallow during winter. But if people want giraffe and rhino, I guess that's what they'll get. Zoological treasures don't really mean anything to families who want to see characters from 'the Lion King'. How Edinburgh zoo have found the funds to finance so many unusual species being imported into the UK for display at their collections astounds me. I applaud it, but I don't see a zoo like Blackpool reviving the days of tree kangaroos or chamois sadly.
Their weaknesses are definitely in trying to bring in large hoofstock and species that will always look better at chester or knowsley than on a blowy airfield by the sea. I really think they have a knack with primates not often repeated in other UK zoos, I don't just mean the odd birth, I mean successive births to swell numbers, in the way that howletts and port lympne can. They could really carve a niche out for themselves as a major primate conservation centre, with a little sensible investment and if the gorillas started to breed, while still having room for other taxa quite comfortably. Imagine if they were as successful with woolly or owl-faced monkeys, or langurs, as with the titis or king colobus?
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johnstoni
Well-Known Member
So what are the options for zoos holding non-breeding males? I saw some research a few years back which pointed to stress levels and even heated flooring as contributors to low sperm count in captive male gorillas - I've no idea whether or not this has since been discounted. I was impressed with the way Bristol managed to radically improve the dynamic and quality of life of their gorilla group by investing in eye surgery and fertility treatment on their respective females, but do similar options exist to zoos where the male is the problem? Do collections take sperm samples for analysis and possibly fertility treatment. It would seem crazy to hold a silverback and just 'not know' if he is fertile until proven, but then maybe it isn't seen as worth sedating an animal just to assess their viability.
Apologies as I know very little about captive gorilla management, but before the recent breeding success at Bristol, I was unaware of either procedure being possible for those two females, so I'm wondering if fertility tests/ treatment exist for males and, if so, whether it is money which precludes a zoo from carrying it out? And if there is, why would Blackpool not have ascertained this so far? (Possibly still early days.....)
Regarding the Bristol females- I'm certain 'Romina' would have bred even with her cataracts when placed with a good male, though removing them certainly improved her quality of life, made introductions easier and prevented her mothering abilities being impaired, so it was a great outcome.
'Salome' had just been neglected for many years, living with Kumba at Chessington who had lost interest in her sexually and as a nonbreeder she put on more and more weight so that she looked like a football in the end. Not surprising perhaps if her reproductive ability was impaired by her obesity and the Vet team did a great job in the treatment to finally get another full term pregnancy and successful birth from her. They certainly deserved this success. I think it was a 'first' in that particular field. A beneficial side effect has been that rearing an infant has caused her to shed quite a lot of weight again.
Re males. I think sperm samples are usually collected when a male is anaethsetised for some other reason e.g. an operation. I believe they can tell whether the sperm has 'low motility' or not but I guess such tests aren't 100% conclusive. Also Jitu is in robust health and hasn't needed to be 'put under'- its a risky procedure at the best of times and I can understand them being reluctant to take a risk which may still leave them no complete answers...
I would really like to know more about the current situation with 'Jitu' at Blackpool- I heard they'd applied for a new male but that was several years ago and there's been no change.. As I said before, the main problem seems to be what to do with him if they got a replacement. So in this case I would add a (mother-reared) younger male to this group- the indoor house is big enough to keep the males seperate, giving Jitu the company of (say) a single female when not in oestrus. It would be preferable to the current situation.
Funny you both should mention the routine testing of gorilla silverback's/blackback's sperm viability? I know for a certain it was not tried when Artis/Zoo Berlin moved non-starter Ivo out to Zoo Berlin from Amsterdam (I would have wished they had done so ...).
Anesthesia might be an issue, allthough I have never heard it said so by the vets I talked to (gorillas are not the mega vertebrates like giraffe, rhino and elephant where body mass and being put down can be an issue).
Anyhow, I also would like to know what happened to the Blackpool Zoo request for a new silverback male to replace Jitu from the EEP. Has that really been several years (I would have thought that good candidates are available close by)? Is Port Lympne/Bekesbourne these days more coop with the EEP on possible gorilla transfers?
Anesthesia might be an issue, allthough I have never heard it said so by the vets I talked to (gorillas are not the mega vertebrates like giraffe, rhino and elephant where body mass and being put down can be an issue).
Anyhow, I also would like to know what happened to the Blackpool Zoo request for a new silverback male to replace Jitu from the EEP. Has that really been several years (I would have thought that good candidates are available close by)? Is Port Lympne/Bekesbourne these days more coop with the EEP on possible gorilla transfers?
I know for a certain it was not tried when Artis/Zoo Berlin moved non-starter Ivo out to Zoo Berlin from Amsterdam (I would have wished they had done so ...).
Anyhow, I also would like to know what happened to the Blackpool Zoo request for a new silverback male to replace Jitu from the EEP. Has that really been several years Is Port Lympne/Bekesbourne these days more coop with the EEP on possible gorilla transfers?
Jelle.
1. The situation with the Blackpool Gorillas is almost identical to how it was at your local zoo, Artis, when they had Ivo- viz; a handsome silverback not doing the job with three very suitable females. But at Artis they made an exchange for Akili and got an immediate successful result, proving Ivo was the problem.
2. You say Ivo was never tested for fertility. Do you know if he ever mated the females at Artis? If so then maybe he is infertile too?
3. I don't know if an official request was made to EEP for a new male for Blackpool, or whether it was just 'keeper talk'.
4. I don't know if H/PL comply with the EEP over gorillas or still act independantly.(I think perhaps its the latter
) Its my guess a zoo can approach Port Lympne/Howletts for a new(male)Gorilla and maybe get one from them without EEP approval, however if they take this route then maybe the EEP won't back them in the future*. Also most Port Lympne males are genetically well-represented although some of them no more so than other EEP males.5*Chessington might find themselves in this situation if they do not soon receive 'Damisi' (an EEP-organised move) from Paignton.
Sorry to disable the gorilla discussion and go back to the general state of Blackpool...
To a large degree I agree with the last comments from Jelle and Johnstoni. I fear though that Jelle's ambitious ideas for Blackpool will never see fruition. As we have already established Blackpool (as the town) has a certain clientel. It is incredibly unlikely to change, largely popular as a low-income holiday resort (for those that cannot afford to fly to Mallorca and the Canaries). Those towns that did have a similar style to Blackpool are largely forgotten places - have you ever been to Margate/Ramsgate? So realistically, for the conceivable future, Blackpool Zoo will remain a moderate collection of the usual suspects, with the odd surprise of yacares, vicunas and red titis (to underline my point those same visitors will only see a croc, llama and monkey!). I love the idea of an Indian terai or Himalayan mountainside but it won't happen. For a start it would require the zoo to be more organised with its collection due to available space.
I would say that the bird and reptile collection is quite pitiful, but this is due to a lack of interest. Unfortunately they have a few interesting species, but not alot is made of them. Yes the primate collection is pretty good, but as I mentioned this is due to the current management's interest. Blackpool as good as Howletts' breeding success? I'm not convinced. Most of the species that they breed well - orangs, ringtails, king colobus, spider monkeys - are not difficult. Yes they have bred De Brazzas, howlers and titis, but they have lost quite a few of the former and they have only just got started with the latter two. Add in the prominent deaths of individual gorillas and orangs and I would say that Blackpool isn't quite 'top-notch' yet in the primate department.
Oh and lastly koalas probably went off the boil when the last company sold up (had strong links to San Diego) and Edinburgh pipped them. There are no Eucalyptus plantations either.
To a large degree I agree with the last comments from Jelle and Johnstoni. I fear though that Jelle's ambitious ideas for Blackpool will never see fruition. As we have already established Blackpool (as the town) has a certain clientel. It is incredibly unlikely to change, largely popular as a low-income holiday resort (for those that cannot afford to fly to Mallorca and the Canaries). Those towns that did have a similar style to Blackpool are largely forgotten places - have you ever been to Margate/Ramsgate? So realistically, for the conceivable future, Blackpool Zoo will remain a moderate collection of the usual suspects, with the odd surprise of yacares, vicunas and red titis (to underline my point those same visitors will only see a croc, llama and monkey!). I love the idea of an Indian terai or Himalayan mountainside but it won't happen. For a start it would require the zoo to be more organised with its collection due to available space.
I would say that the bird and reptile collection is quite pitiful, but this is due to a lack of interest. Unfortunately they have a few interesting species, but not alot is made of them. Yes the primate collection is pretty good, but as I mentioned this is due to the current management's interest. Blackpool as good as Howletts' breeding success? I'm not convinced. Most of the species that they breed well - orangs, ringtails, king colobus, spider monkeys - are not difficult. Yes they have bred De Brazzas, howlers and titis, but they have lost quite a few of the former and they have only just got started with the latter two. Add in the prominent deaths of individual gorillas and orangs and I would say that Blackpool isn't quite 'top-notch' yet in the primate department.
Oh and lastly koalas probably went off the boil when the last company sold up (had strong links to San Diego) and Edinburgh pipped them. There are no Eucalyptus plantations either.
You have summed up Blackpool's situation very accurately and succinctly here... both the Town and the Zoo.
I also agree with your comments on the Primates generally. Apart from the recent sad loss of the Orang 'Beau' the other ape deaths in the past were largely to be expected(elderly Gorilla females) or chance losses(orangs Homer & Hayley) though a lot of press critisism was made about them at the time because three happened to occur within a couple of days of each other. But I certainly wouldn't really place them as a major primate collection either on their existing record.
I also agree with your comments on the Primates generally. Apart from the recent sad loss of the Orang 'Beau' the other ape deaths in the past were largely to be expected(elderly Gorilla females) or chance losses(orangs Homer & Hayley) though a lot of press critisism was made about them at the time because three happened to occur within a couple of days of each other. But I certainly wouldn't really place them as a major primate collection either on their existing record.
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
i notice Blackpool has a single agile wallaby. Is this an old animal left over from the old marsupial collection, or a new animal maybe from South Lakes? They used to list a single Deer wallaroo with ISIS until recently, could it be that this was just an incorrect listing and they have held an agile wallaby the whole time?
I'm also interested in their gazelles. Does anyone know what exactly the 'arabian' gazelle is? I thought true Arabian gazelles were extinct. Are these a mixture of other gazelle subspecies? They seem to be going from strength to strength while all the other UK groups have disappeared, perhaps deliberately if they are generic animals.
I'm also interested in their gazelles. Does anyone know what exactly the 'arabian' gazelle is? I thought true Arabian gazelles were extinct. Are these a mixture of other gazelle subspecies? They seem to be going from strength to strength while all the other UK groups have disappeared, perhaps deliberately if they are generic animals.
Although I have worked with their macropods and gazelles, the agiles came after I had moved section. I think that Blackpool brought in four (?) to go into the first paddock in a sort of vague Australian theme of red roos, emus and black swans (you would never see this in an Australian zoo!). Not sure where they popped up from (somewhere in Europe), but definitely not South Lakes. Bad blood between the two. They did have some old Wallaroo also, was 1.2, so unfortunately sounds like this species is on the way out. Usual problem of impossible to acquire more stock.
Blackpool do have a herd of Arabian gazelle (not always on exhibit). They are the same species that is/was at Chester and Marwell. I believe that Blackpool lists them as arabica. A friend did a very intensive study of the genetics and phenotypes of all the purported Arabian gazelles in the UK (probably 15-20 years ago) and found that they were not the species recorded as (again probably arabica). Unfortunately my memory does not serve me as to what his conclusions were, but having a quick look at Wikipedia I would suggest either gazella or saudiya. Hybridisation is a strong possibility, whether inter/intra species.
I wouldn't say they were going from strength to strength however. The females have occasional births but they have alot of trouble keeping them alive. They seem to pick up too many parasites when kept on grass, and obviously don't like the wet. I am pretty sure that this is the norm with this 'species' in UK collections. Other UK collections have probably not pushed ahead with gazelles because it has become too difficult.
I didn't know that they had lost Hayley as well! I also wouldn't have said that the two gorilla female's deaths were to be expected. It was a major shock when all three apes died in the same week. I have my own thoughts about it which I shall keep to myself, reluctantly.
Chester eventually thought their gazelles to be Arabian mountain gazelles (Gazella gazella cora), but there was some doubt about the purity of the herd. A male Dorcas was imported in the 1960 at the time when the others arrived from the army and RAF, he is not thought to have had any surviving young, but it cannot be certain.
Chester received a male in 1984 from Marwell who originated from the continent and may not have been pure.
Chester received a male in 1984 from Marwell who originated from the continent and may not have been pure.
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
thanks....
I don't think chester or Marwell have had Arabian gazelle for some time. Dudley still had some until only a couple of years ago, and they seemed to breed quite well for a while. ISIS only now lists the old male at London, down from a group of 3 or 4 if my memory is right. I think he is housed in the left-hand side of the giraffe house, but his outdoor paddock is boarded up now.
When I saw the group at Blackpool they were by the entrance, in a grass paddock with some storks. I wonder if they are still kept on grass now or if they have given them sand.
I don't think chester or Marwell have had Arabian gazelle for some time. Dudley still had some until only a couple of years ago, and they seemed to breed quite well for a while. ISIS only now lists the old male at London, down from a group of 3 or 4 if my memory is right. I think he is housed in the left-hand side of the giraffe house, but his outdoor paddock is boarded up now.
When I saw the group at Blackpool they were by the entrance, in a grass paddock with some storks. I wonder if they are still kept on grass now or if they have given them sand.
I won't ask you to elaborate... Certainly Homer & Hayley were still young animals and I was very surprised that they were lost. Homer had just started breeding so it was a double tragedy but at least his genes(Joe x Kate?) are in the population. Hayley, being Victoria's sister, was not a significant loss in the genetic sense- but very sad nevertheless.
Neither Lomie nor Kukee were that old for Gorillas, I'll agree. I also felt extremely sorry for the male Kumba- I am sure he would have bred if he had been allowed the females 'Jitu' has, instead of being sent away to Europe. Sadly he is dead now also.
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tetrapod,
I can fix your gazelle fire! I my other life I used to work on Arabian fauna and flora and gazelles was a frequent discussion topic.
The Arabian gazelle Gazella gazella in the UK were all imported from Yemen. This part of the Arabian Peninsula has not been well documented zoologically in recent times so the subspecies assignation turned out to be an unresolved issue. But it is most definitely not what you are suggesting. To my mind the Yemeni Gazella bilkis is also not on a clean sheet.
Gazella saudiya is extinct and has not been seen for 25-30 odd years in the wild and does not exist in captivity. Those purported G. saudiya in captivity in the UAE and Bahrain turned out to be hybrids with Gazella bennetti forms. Gazella arabica is described from 1 skin only and to my mind is just a colour variation on the Gazella gazella norm.
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