British Isles Cup Redux - League A - Twycross vs Cotswold Wildlife Park

[TeaLovingDave]

Cotswold is coming straight off a fairly solid win, whilst Twycross is looking to redeem itself after a complete wipeout during their first match - so each collection has something to prove here, methinks..... and the arena in which they will be hoping to prove themselves will be AFRICA.

Interpret the category how you will - species collection, exhibit quality, conservation efforts, past history, current status..... I reckon this one has the potential to be interesting in several regards!

Hoping for some good arguments on both sides here

 

[pipaluk]

Sorry, please would you clarify whether Madagascar counts for Africa or not? If I remember correctly it did not in previous competitions.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Sorry, please would you clarify whether Madagascar counts for Africa or not? If I remember correctly it did not in previous competitions.

In previous ones it did not, but I've been given leeway by @CGSwans to fiddle with criteria so I am happy for it to count it will still fall into the "island species" category too, however, along with other borderline cases such as the varying definitions of which Indonesian islands count as Asian and which are Oceanic.

 

[CGSwans]

Bah, humbug.

 

[pipaluk]

In previous ones it did not, but I've been given leeway by @CGSwans to fiddle with criteria so I am happy for it to count it will still fall into the "island species" category too, however, along with other borderline cases such as the varying definitions of which Indonesian islands count as Asian and which are Oceanic.

I have to say that this is why I have always preferred the taxonomic categories as there are no grey areas and no overlaps. Personally I think it is unfair that Cotswold can count its Madagascar area in 2 geographical categories for example. I argued this previously when Zurich's Masoala house seemed to be winning it every contest it could broadly qualify for, but no one agreed with me.
Taxonomic categories are not really open to dispute, a mammal is a mammal, a bird is a bird.
Mixing taxonomic and the other categories in the same round also continually helps or hinders certain zoos for example Jersey got hoofstock in its first match, followed by grassland and desert (a fair proportion of which is going to be hoofstock!)

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Personally I think it is unfair that Cotswold can count its Madagascar area in 2 geographical categories for example.

Well, as a counterpoint there would still be a lot of overlap either way - look at how many of the "grassland" species from the last Cotswold match are African and hence carried over to this round!

There's no guarantee that CWP will even draw Islands down the line in any case (I cannot recall offhand as I don't have my notes with me right now) as there's 15 categories in total at play, each will only pop up once in each league given there's 30 matches in this stage, and any given collection will only draw 5 categories. The only way to have sufficient categories with no risk of a collection getting the same category twice (barring really splitting hairs taxonomically) was to mix in geographic and biome categories.

I plan something a little different for the next stage.

 

[pipaluk]

Well, as a counterpoint there would still be a lot of overlap either way - look at how many of the "grassland" species from the last Cotswold match are African and hence carried over to this round!

There's no guarantee that CWP will even draw Islands down the line in any case (I cannot recall offhand as I don't have my notes with me right now) as there's 15 categories in total at play, each will only pop up once in each league given there's 30 matches in this stage, and any given collection will only draw 5 categories. The only way to have sufficient categories with no risk of a collection getting the same category twice (barring really splitting hairs taxonomically) was to mix in geographic and biome categories.

I plan something a little different for the next stage.

My point was that by using taxonomic, geographic and biomes in the same round allow s too much repeat use of the same species or lack of them and means some zoos will never get to test their strengths against anyone. If for example Jersey now gets Africa, Carnivores and water, they are quite likely to lose all 5 matches without their strong points, primates, birds, ectotherms ever really coming into play, whilst a zoo strong on African, grassland hoofstock wins 3 without breaking sweat if they are lucky!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

My point was that by using taxonomic, geographic and biomes in the same round allow s too much repeat use of the same species or lack of them and means some zoos will never get to test their strengths against anyone.

Funnily enough I was thinking quite the opposite - that allowing some overlap increases the chance that a collection can employ it's strengths.

To use Jersey as an example, if these first rounds ONLY had taxonomy, biomes, or geography as categories, and there was no overlap with geography, they would have a 1/5 chance of a good taxonomy category, a 1/5 chance of a good biome category, and a 2/15 chance of a good geography category. With the current system and the categories I have lined up they had a 7/15 chance of getting a good category.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I've provisionally given it 2-1 to Cotswold Wildlife Park as they seem to have the edge given the number of African small mammals, hoofstock, birds and prosimians the collection keeps (with a total of 29 mammals, 30 birds and 9 herps), as opposed to the somewhat slender pickings at Twycross in this regard (16 mammals, 10 birds and 5 herps) - however my opinion isn't terribly solid at present and is therefore pretty open to alteration.

As such I'd be interested in the arguments @Haasje and @pipaluk can put forward in terms of why they have given Twycross the edge in this category?

 

[CGSwans]

My point was that by using taxonomic, geographic and biomes in the same round allow s too much repeat use of the same species or lack of them and means some zoos will never get to test their strengths against anyone. If for example Jersey now gets Africa, Carnivores and water, they are quite likely to lose all 5 matches without their strong points, primates, birds, ectotherms ever really coming into play, whilst a zoo strong on African, grassland hoofstock wins 3 without breaking sweat if they are lucky!

You spend far more time arguing the rules - both what they should be and other people’s adherence to them - than you do the actual substance. It derails threads and gets very, very exasperating. It would be nice if you would recognise that both Dave and I pour a lot of time and energy into this game you spend so much time criticising.

 

[pipaluk]

You spend far more time arguing the rules - both what they should be and other people’s adherence to them - than you do the actual substance. It derails threads and gets very, very exasperating. It would be nice if you would recognise that both Dave and I pour a lot of time and energy into this game you spend so much time criticising.

I think you are being over sensitive!!!

 

[CGSwans]

Maybe. But maybe you could reflect on how your behaviour affects others. Especially those putting a lot of work into something for you to enjoy.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

As such I'd be interested in the arguments @Haasje and @pipaluk can put forward in terms of why they have given Twycross the edge in this category?

Thoughts?

Naturally I'd be interested to hear the opinions of (and see votes from) other Zoochatters in this regard, too !

 

[Haasje]

Of course, I can give some light to my choice. It was a difficult one to make. Both have some ok collections and ok exhibits if you ask me. Although the Cotswold rhino Maddow thus gives some nice views on the Manor. What tipped me over to Twycross is their great primate collection, especially the big apes. If we are in competition with the 'best' zoo to win. I think that a zoo in the Africa category should have a big ape.

 

[pipaluk]

When I prepared my mammal lists for both zoos, I ignored Madagascar and the Little Africa section at CWP, as when I was there last month it appeared to be permanently closed as all signage had been removed. This meant CWP had just one more mammal and given Twycross includes 3 great apes (including the only bonobo in the UK), and several other relative rarities amongst the non duplicated species I felt Twycross just about had enough to win it, though I think it could go either way really.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

What tipped me over to Twycross is their great primate collection, especially the big apes.

Well, a good chunk of that collection is in poor-to-average enclosures, with at least some of the apes in the worse end of that scale, so a decent case could be made that Twycross might merit being docked points but the point about great apes being a big "miss" for CWP is a fair one. Of course, prosimian-wise Cotswold blows Twycross out of the water, even if pipaluk is protesting against the category format by refusing to accept the Malagasy contingent counts as African and it's far ahead on birds.

 

[pipaluk]

Well, a good chunk of that collection is in poor-to-average enclosures, with at least some of the apes in the worse end of that scale, so a decent case could be made that Twycross might merit being docked points but the point about great apes being a big "miss" for CWP is a fair one. Of course, prosimian-wise Cotswold blows Twycross out of the water, even if pipaluk is protesting against the category format by refusing to accept the Malagasy contingent counts as African and it's far ahead on birds.

Sorry I am not very knowledgeable on birds. Could you give examples of some of the African rarities on show at CWP please , as I am not decided yet!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Sorry I am not very knowledgeable on birds. Could you give examples of some of the African rarities on show at CWP please , as I am not decided yet!

This is the full list of African birds at CWP:

African comb duck (Sarkidiornis melanotos)
African openbill (Anastomus lamelligerus)
African sacred ibis (Threskiornis aethiopicus)
African spoonbill (Platalea alba)
Bearded barbet (Pogonornis dubius)
Lesser vasa parrot (Coracopsis nigra)
Black stork (Ciconia nigra)
Black-crowned night heron (Nycticorax nycticorax nycticorax)
Blue Crane (Anthropoides paradisea)
Blue-bellied roller (Coracias cyanogaster)
Common ostrich (No Subspecific status) (Struthio camelus)
Common Rueppell's griffon vulture (Gyps rueppelli rueppelli)
Kenya crested guineafowl (Guttera pucherani)
European thick-knee (Burhinus oedicnemus oedicnemus)
European white stork (Ciconia ciconia ciconia)
Fulvous whistling-duck (Fulvous tree duck) (Dendrocygna bicolor)
Garganey (Spatula querquedula)
Great white pelican (Pelecanus onocrotalus)
Vermiculated eagle-owl (Bubo cinerascens)
Helmeted guineafowl (Numida meleagris)
Little egret (Egretta garzetta garzetta)
Madagascar partridge (Margaroperdix madagarensis)
Madagascar teal (Anas bernieri)
Northern bald ibis (Geronticus eremita)
Northern white-faced scops-owl (Ptilopsis leucotis)
Pied avocet (Recurvirostra avosetta)
Pink pigeon (Nesoenas mayeri)
Madagascar fody (Foudia madagascariensis)
Red-crested pochard (Netta rufina)
Red-crested turaco (Tauraco erythrolophus)
Southern masked-weaver (African masked-weaver) (Ploceus velatus)
Western cattle egret (Bubulcus ibis ibis)
White-browed coucal (Centropus superciliosus)
White-faced whistling-duck (Dendrocygna viduata)

And this is the full list of African birds at Twycross:

Black-crowned night heron (Nycticorax nycticorax nycticorax)
European white stork (Ciconia ciconia ciconia)
Glossy ibis (Plegadis falcinellus)
Greater Vasa Parrot (Coracopsis vasa)
Little egret (Egretta garzetta garzetta)
Northern grey hornbill (Lophoceros nasutus nasutus)
Pink-backed pelican (Pelecanus rufescens)
Red-crested turaco (Tauraco erythrolophus)
Silvery-cheeked hornbill (Bycanistes brevis)
Speckled pigeon (Columba guinea)
Village weaver (Ploceus cucullatus)
Western cattle egret (Bubulcus ibis ibis)

I have listed "unique" species in bold and left species shared between both collections unhighlighted.

Bit of a stark difference, methinks!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Interested to hear the opinion of @Onychorhynchus coronatus and @nczoofan in the closing hours of this vote

New votes would also be more than welcome!

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I should preface this by saying I haven't been to either collection. I should also say that I didn't include Madagascar as part of the criteria for Africa as I personally consider the island and its fauna to be quite distinct in many ways from the African mainland (though the mammal species ultimately arrived via Africa and radiated etc).

Basically I voted Twycross 2/1 because I felt that they had a greater range of African fauna kept at their zoo than Cotswold wildlife park.

Twycross has large African megafauna like zebra, black rhino , giraffe, nyala and small hoofed mammals like Kirk's dik dik. Primates were another a decisive factor in the favour of Twycross which has four African monkey species (compared to a single species kept by Cotswold) and all three of the African great ape species represented with gorillas, chimps and bonobos held on site.

Carnivore diversity, either small or large, was not so notable in either collection and were represented by herpestids (meerkats at both and yellow mongoose at Cotswold). Some African mammal taxa represented at Cotswold were absent from Twycross like rodents (African crested porcupine) and chiroptera (Egyptian fruit bat) but I still felt that Twycross had a stronger hand in terms of mammals with their African species.

In terms of birds it again seemed to me that Twycross had a fuller hand with their species like the silvery cheeked hornbill, African grey hornbill, glossy ibis, white stork, village weaver, turacos, pink backed pelicans. Still quite a close one though as Cotswold apparently has some African storks, owls, ibis, the ostrich and of course Ruppel's griffon vulture.

In terms of reptiles (never mind amphibians which don't seem to be very prevalent at either) Twycross again seemed in a stronger position given that they keep an agama and several African tortoise species whereas Cotswold seems to mainly have neotropical and Malagasy species.

In terms of in-situ and ex-situ conservation output of these collections I again felt that Twycross had an advantage as it has contributed to projects in West and Central Africa with numerous African primate species (both monkeys and great apes), some ungulates like the bongo and birds like the turaco. By contrast, Cotswold wildlife park seemed to be involved with just a single African project involving the white rhino.