British Isles Cup Redux - League A - ZSEA (Banham / Africa Alive) vs Whitley (Paignton / Newq / LC)

ZSEA vs Paignton et al - CARNIVORES

  • ZSEA 3/0 Whitley

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • ZSEA 2/1 Whitley

    Votes: 2 33.3%

  • Whitley 2/1 ZSEA

    Votes: 4 66.7%

  • Whitley 3/0 ZSEA

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    6
  • Poll closed .
TeaLovingDave

TeaLovingDave

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15+ year member
This one should be a pretty interesting one, as two collections which have - thus far - been faring pretty strongly in their prior matches come head to head, and on a topic which I think is ripe for a lot of debate and argument on both sides - CARNIVORES.

I think both collections have a bloody good shot at winning this one - I look forward to your arguments.
 
If looked at purely in terms of carnivora and obligate carnivorous mammals kept then I think it is clear that ZSEA have the stronger hand and that Whitley are lacking.

Whitley

Carnivora and obligate carnivorous mammals:

Felids: Sumatran tiger, cheetah, Asiatic lion, Carpathian lynx, fishing cat.

Canids: 0 currently.

Mulestids: Asian short claw otter.

Herpestids: Meerkats.

Viverrids: 0

Pinnipeds (obligate carnivores): 0

Hyaenids: 0

Ursids: 0

Euplerids: 0

Ailurids: Red panda.

Procyonids: Ring tailed coati.

ZSEA

Carnivora and obligate carnivorous mammals:

Felids: Amur tiger, African lion, snow leopard, cheetah, Sri Lankan leopard, Pallas cat, ocelot, serval.

Canids : African hunting dog, maned wolf, bat eared fox, fennec fox.

Herpestids : Yellow mongoose, meerkat.

Euplerids: Fossa.

Mulestids: Asian short claw otter.

Vivverrid: Common genet.

Ursids: 0

Hyaenids: 0

Ailurids: Red panda.

Pinnipeds (obligate carnivores): Californian sealion.

Verdict:

ZSEA win in terms of carnivora kept and have quite an impressive collection in terms of species representing different families of carnivores.
 
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Conservation ouput

Whitley

Ex-situ

Critically endangered: Sumatran tiger.

Endangered : Asiatic lion, red panda.

Vulnerable: Fishing cat, Asian short claw otter.

Near threatened: 0.

Total: 5 species and subspecies of conservation concern.

In-Situ:

The Whitley trust for nature funds and supports in-situ conservation efforts all over the world and is literally a lifeline for many of these. Current conservation projects involving carnivores involve Ethiopian wolves, Amur tiger, jaguar, puma, spectacled bear, Andean mountain cat, Eurasian brown bear, Eurasian wolf, Asiatic leopard, dhole, fossa.

ZSEA

Ex-situ:

Critically endangered: Amur tiger,

Endangered: African hunting dog, Sri Lankan leopard, red panda.

Vulnerable: African lion, cheetah, snow leopard, fossa, Asian short claw otter,

Near-threatened: Maned wolf

Total : 10 species and subspecies of conservation concern.

In-Situ:

ZSEA is involved with funding and supporting the snow leopard trust and the Wildcats conservation alliance which works primarily with the Amur and Sumatran tiger.

Verdict

ZSEA keeps more carnivora of conservation concern and has a greater involvement in ex-situ conservation of these than Whitley. However, the Whitley trust for nature has a truly incredible conservation output in terms of in-situ conservation which for me means that they win outright in terms of conservation.
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
If looked at purely in terms of carnivora and obligate carnivorous mammals kept then I think it is clear that ZSEA have the stronger hand and that Whitley are lacking.
Click to expand...

You've actually underestimated the number of carnivoran species held at the various Whitley collections by a fair amount - it will be interesting to see whether this influences your opinion on this matter:

Paignton

Asiatic lion (Panthera leo persica)
Maned Wolf (Chrysocyon brachyurus)
Meerkat (Suricata suricatta)
Nepalese red panda (Ailurus fulgens)
South African cheetah (Acinonyx jubatus jubatus)
South American coati (Nasua nasua)
Sumatran tiger (Panthera tigris sumatrae)

Living Coasts

South American fur seal (Arctocephalus australis)
Asian small-clawed otter (Aonyx cinerea)

Newquay

Asian small-clawed otter (Aonyx cinerea)
Carpathian lynx (Lynx lynx carpathicus)
Common Cusimanse (Crossarchus obscurus)
Fishing cat (Prionailurus viverrinus)
Non-subspecific Lion (Panthera leo)
Meerkat (Suricata suricatta)
Nepalese red panda (Ailurus fulgens)
Northern Narrow-striped boky (Mungotictis decemlineata decemlineata)
Owston's banded palm civet (Chrotogale owstoni)
Yellow mongoose (Cynictis penicillata)

So this comes to:

Felidae - 5 taxa
Canidae - 1 taxon
Herpestidae - 3 taxa
Viverridae - 1 taxon
Eupleridae - 1 taxon
Ailuridae - 1 taxon
Mustelidae - 1 taxon
Procyonidae - 1 taxon
Otariidae - 1 taxon

...or 15 species, of which one (Owston's Civet) is a highly unusual and noteworthy taxon.

Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
Conservation ouput

Whitley

Ex-situ

Critically endangered: Sumatran tiger.

Endangered : Asiatic lion, red panda.

Vulnerable: Fishing cat, Asian short claw otter.

Near threatened: 0.

Total: 5 species and subspecies of conservation concern.

In-Situ:

The Whitley trust for nature funds and supports in-situ conservation efforts all over the world and is literally a lifeline for many of these. Current conservation projects involving carnivores involve Ethiopian wolves, Amur tiger, jaguar, puma, spectacled bear, Andean mountain cat, Eurasian brown bear, Eurasian wolf, Asiatic leopard, dhole, fossa.
Click to expand...

You have also omitted a major point in this regard too - Newquay is one of the keystone members of the ex-situ breeding programme for Owston's Civet *and* is heavily involved in the in-situ breeding centres and rescue facilities for the species over in Vietnam - and I would tend to argue that this taxon is the species in most need of conservation attention of *any* of the carnivore taxa which Whitley is involved with.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
You've actually underestimated the number of carnivoran species held at the various Whitley collections by a fair amount - it will be interesting to see whether this influences your opinion on this matter:

Paignton

Asiatic lion (Panthera leo persica)
Maned Wolf (Chrysocyon brachyurus)
Meerkat (Suricata suricatta)
Nepalese red panda (Ailurus fulgens)
South African cheetah (Acinonyx jubatus jubatus)
South American coati (Nasua nasua)
Sumatran tiger (Panthera tigris sumatrae)

Living Coasts

South American fur seal (Arctocephalus australis)
Asian small-clawed otter (Aonyx cinerea)

Newquay

Asian small-clawed otter (Aonyx cinerea)
Carpathian lynx (Lynx lynx carpathicus)
Common Cusimanse (Crossarchus obscurus)
Fishing cat (Prionailurus viverrinus)
Non-subspecific Lion (Panthera leo)
Meerkat (Suricata suricatta)
Nepalese red panda (Ailurus fulgens)
Northern Narrow-striped boky (Mungotictis decemlineata decemlineata)
Owston's banded palm civet (Chrotogale owstoni)
Yellow mongoose (Cynictis penicillata)



You have also omitted a major point in this regard too - Newquay is one of the keystone members of the ex-situ breeding programme for Owston's Civet *and* is heavily involved in the in-situ breeding centres and rescue facilities for the species over in Vietnam - and I would tend to argue that this taxon is the species in most need of conservation attention of *any* of the carnivore taxa which Whitley is involved with.
Click to expand...


I think that the fact that Whitley is involved in the ex-situ and in-situ programme for the Owston's civet and holds it as well as holding a small carnivore that is a firm favourite of mine the narrow striped mongoose just strengthens my vote for Whitley.

Also would agree with you on the Owston's palm civet being the taxon that is in most requirement of conservation attention that Whitley keeps. Although the narrow striped mongoose is not too far off it either really when you consider the threats stacked against it in Madagascar.

Didn't include Living coasts as when I checked the website it stated that it is now closed to the public permanently.

I do have to give a point to ZSEA though because they have quite a strong hand when it comes to the diversity of carnivora kept and if they were still keeping hyena as they apparently once did then it would be an even more impressive collection.
 
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Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
Didn't include Living coasts as when I checked the website it stated that it is now closed to the public permanently.
Click to expand...

It is - but as noted when I revived this UK Zoo Cup, I've ruled it's entirely fair to view things from a pre-CV19 point of view (as the initial attempt at this Zoo Cup did for obvious reasons at the start of this year) considering the many changes which this pandemic has incurred on zoos worldwide, let alone the UK.

In any case, that hasn't stopped you taking species which London or Jersey hasn't held in many years into consideration elsewhere :P
 
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TeaLovingDave said:
It is - but as noted when I revived this UK Zoo Cup, I've ruled it's entirely fair to view things from a pre-CV19 point of view (as the initial attempt at this Zoo Cup did for obvious reasons at the start of this year) considering the many changes which this pandemic has incurred on zoos worldwide, let alone the UK.

In any case, that hasn't stopped you taking species which London or Jersey hasn't held in many years into consideration elsewhere :p
Click to expand...

True, and I know if I was to in this particular cup it would be a really interesting one as Paignton is quite an old zoo if I remember rightly and they would have historically had far more carnivores.
 
It's also worth noting that when I said historical factors were valid sources of discussion I didn't intend for people to merely go for "collection X is older and has held significantly more species" type arguments :P otherwise ZSL would be an automatic win every time. I was thinking more along the lines of previous breeding successes or failures, notable highlights and lowlights which reflect well/badly on the collection to this day, and things such as this!
 
TeaLovingDave said:
It's also worth noting that when I said historical factors were valid sources of discussion I didn't intend for people to merely go for "collection X is older and has held significantly more species" type arguments :p otherwise ZSL would be an automatic win every time. I was thinking more along the lines of previous breeding successes or failures, notable highlights and lowlights which reflect well/badly on the collection to this day, and things such as this!
Click to expand...

Well that is an interesting consideration and I'll have to take a look at both collections and see how they fare in these terms.
 
There is not much in this really. On its own Paignton wouldn't stand much chance, but Newquay brings Whitley into contention. Whether Living Coasts counts or not makes little difference, as it only adds the fur seals which everyone seems to think were kept in a poor exhibit (not that I personally think it was that bad!).
 
If I'd been able to give a bonus point, this is a clear 2:2... However, as Paignton is a favourite of mine, and having seen some of the great Civet work at Newquay, they *just* get the win.
 
Anyone got more to contribute to this discussion? Bit of a slow round......
 
TeaLovingDave said:
Anyone got more to contribute to this discussion? Bit of a slow round......
Click to expand...
As I said before, I think this is very close and not really sure which way to go. I was surprised to find that narrow striped Mongoose is now as common as fossa in UK and Jersey zoos! The only unique to the UK carnivore as far as I can see is Sri Lankan leopard at Banham and they have a good breeding record. I didn't see Owston's Civet at Newquay, and the only place I have always been successful is Thrigby, Port Lympne and Shaldon only seen once each, so couldn't get too excited about their non appearance at Newquay. Newquay have fishing cat(a favourite of mine) but Banham have Pallas', I'm still undecided!
 
pipaluk said:
. I didn't see Owston's Civet at Newquay, and the only place I have always been successful is Thrigby, Port Lympne and Shaldon only seen once each, so couldn't get too excited about their non appearance at Newquay.
Click to expand...

Funnily enough, my experience is the precise reverse - I saw the species at Newquay, but missed it at Port Lympne and only saw it in a mirror at Shaldon :P I gather that since my visit to Newquay the civets are displayed in multiple locations, too.

pipaluk said:
I was surprised to find that narrow striped Mongoose is now as common as fossa in UK and Jersey zoos!
Click to expand...

Indeed - the Boky has had a bit of a boom, whilst the Fossa has been lost from six collections in the last 5 years or so.
 
pipaluk said:
As I said before, I think this is very close and not really sure which way to go. I was surprised to find that narrow striped Mongoose is now as common as fossa in UK and Jersey zoos! The only unique to the UK carnivore as far as I can see is Sri Lankan leopard at Banham and they have a good breeding record. I didn't see Owston's Civet at Newquay, and the only place I have always been successful is Thrigby, Port Lympne and Shaldon only seen once each, so couldn't get too excited about their non appearance at Newquay. Newquay have fishing cat(a favourite of mine) but Banham have Pallas', I'm still undecided!
Click to expand...

What zoos in the UK keep the narrow striped mongoose ?

I mean apart from ZSL, Jersey, Newquay of course.
 
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