British Isles Cup Redux - League B - Jersey vs Colchester

[TeaLovingDave]

Though as you brought up, the Pygmy Hog program is noteworthy enough for me to fork over a point for Jersey.

And myself I reckon

That said, I think I'll change my vote if possible and go with a 2/1 as it does seem that this would be the most realistic option.

Sounds fair to me, in that case

However, I think that we *will* have to disregard the 3-0 vote from @MRJ as (apparently) a pure protest vote at Jersey coming out worse in a match - but I'll leave the final decision on that to @CGSwans methinks, pending any further explanation from MRJ.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

And myself I reckon



Sounds fair to me, in that case

However, I think that we *will* have to disregard the 3-0 vote from @MRJ as (apparently) a pure protest vote at Jersey coming out worse in a match - but I'll leave the final decision on that to @CGSwans methinks pending any further explanation from MRJ.

Yes I agree, have now made the change.

Dave, I do think there kind of needs to be more cups that feature Jersey's strong points like birds, small mammals, reptiles, amphibians etc. because an unconventional zoo like that just isn't going to be able to compete with zoos that keep larger species.

 

[ZooBinh]

Yes I agree, have now made the change.

Dave, I do think there kind of needs to be more cups that feature Jersey's strong points like birds, small mammals, reptiles, amphibians etc. because an unconventional zoo like that just isn't going to be able to compete with zoos that keep larger species.

Well, to be fair, the matches are randomly chosen .

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Dave, I do think there kind of needs to be more cups that feature Jersey's strong points like birds, small mammals, reptiles, amphibians etc. because an unconventional zoo like that just isn't going to be able to compete with zoos that keep larger species.

Well, I didn't actually select the zoos for this cup - recall this is a revived version of the cup @CGSwans started earlier this year however, there are categories in play and which Jersey might end up drawing which cover some of the groups you cite - for instance, over in the other thread where all things aquatic and amphibious holds sway Paignton et al are doing very well indeed, due in part to the number of amphibian and reptile species the relevant collections hold and (in some cases) breed regularly.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Well, I didn't actually select the zoos for this cup - recall this is a revived version of the cup @CGSwans started earlier this year however, there are categories in play which cover some of the groups you cite - for instance, over in the other thread where all things aquatic and amphibious holds sway Paignton et al are doing very well indeed, due in part to the number of amphibian and reptile species the relevant collections hold and (in some cases) breed regularly.

Oh right, well @CGSwans please try to make this a bit of a fairer contest for Jersey to compete in with future threads.

Paignton are pretty good, they've been helping us out a lot with conserving our callitrichids.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Well, to be fair, the matches are randomly chosen .

Ah, I see

 

[MRJ]

However, I think that we *will* have to disregard the 3-0 vote from @MRJ as (apparently) a pure protest vote at Jersey coming out worse in a match - but I'll leave the final decision on that to @CGSwans methinks, pending any further explanation from MRJ.

How dare you! I have of course closely considered the facts as far as I have been able to ascertain them from the evidence at hand. I have reviewed the map of Colchester Zoo on the internet and it seems to me that they have a collection of the usual suspects confined to most probably muddy paddocks enduring the fog and drizzle, and that is in summer. During winter they are no doubt confined to some dark and cramped stall out of sight. Jersey of course does not have any "hoofstock" but why would they want any? They don't waste space trying to pretend they are Chobe National Park but concentrate on species that reflect their stellar conservation work. Mind you, they did have two Przewalski's horses when I studied there in 1996. Coming from Mongolia, they along with Dall sheep, seem ideally suited to the climate of the British Isles.

 

[pipaluk]

Yes, probably right in the diversity of species kept department, but I do tend to prefer quality over quantity and admittedly I'm biased. I guess that even if Colchester had over 50 species of ungulate they would still be nowhere near Jersey in my estimations.

That said, I think I'll change my vote if possible and go with a 2/1 as it does seem that this would be the most realistic option.

What quality? Jersey have just one species of hoofstock (which Colchester have anyway)! This is probably Jersey's weakest category by far and how they even get a point is beyond me! It's luck of the draw, giving sympathy votes because of a zoo's reputation makes the whole thing pointless! If Jersey doesn't get a heavy beating here, then people must have decided to vote for them in every category and we may as well not bother!

 

[TeaLovingDave]

How dare you! I have of course closely considered the facts as far as I have been able to ascertain them from the evidence at hand. I have reviewed the map of Colchester Zoo on the internet and it seems to me that they have a collection of the usual suspects confined to most probably muddy paddocks enduring the fog and drizzle, and that is in summer. During winter they are no doubt confined to some dark and cramped stall out of sight. Jersey of course does not have any "hoofstock" but why would they want any? They don't waste space trying to pretend they are Chobe National Park but concentrate on species that reflect their stellar conservation work. Mind you, they did have two Przewalski's horses when I studied there in 1996. Coming from Mongolia, they along with Dall sheep, are ideally suited to the climate of the British Isles.

You're still very much giving the impression you are voting for Jersey for their achievements as a whole and not bothering to stick to the category. The whole point of *having* categories is to ensure collections are judged on all factors rather than automatically giving a collection the win because of who they are - and this is how @CGSwans has always ran the Zoochat Cup. I didn't see you complaining about unfair match balance when Chester got a steamrollering in the Island Species match against Taronga!

I also get the impression from your description of "most probably muddy paddocks enduring the fog and drizzle, and that is in summer" that you don't much like England and would say the same for any collection

 

[pipaluk]

How dare you! I have of course closely considered the facts as far as I have been able to ascertain them from the evidence at hand. I have reviewed the map of Colchester Zoo on the internet and it seems to me that they have a collection of the usual suspects confined to most probably muddy paddocks enduring the fog and drizzle, and that is in summer. During winter they are no doubt confined to some dark and cramped stall out of sight. Jersey of course does not have any "hoofstock" but why would they want any? They don't waste space trying to pretend they are Chobe National Park but concentrate on species that reflect their stellar conservation work. Mind you, they did have two Przewalski's horses when I studied there in 1996. Coming from Mongolia, they along with Dall sheep, seem ideally suited to the climate of the British Isles.

By this reasoning, Monkeyworld could beat a zoo with 100 bird species on birds. It's twisting things to the extreme!

 

[CGSwans]

@MRJ, there are multiple interpretations of your post, including that your outrage is intended in jest. If it isn’t, though, please understand that asking people to explain and justify votes is a legitimate and important part of this game.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

What quality? Jersey have just one species of hoofstock (which Colchester have anyway)! This is probably Jersey's weakest category by far and how they even get a point is beyond me! It's luck of the draw, giving sympathy votes because of a zoo's reputation makes the whole thing pointless! If Jersey doesn't get a heavy beating here, then people must have decided to vote for them in every category and we may as well not bother!

Calm down its only a game I've already explained why and agreed to put my vote down to a 2/1.

Jersey's in-situ project with the pygmy hog is particularly impressive and that hardly counts for a "sympathy vote" IMO.

Dave stated that historic holdings and conservation work could be included as metrics which I have done in my vote .

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Dave stated that historic holdings and conservation work could be included as metrics which I have done in my vote .

It is worth remembering, of course, that this goes both ways - if someone thought that past failings in this area had a bearing on the present day (Twycross introducing hybrid tigers into the wild for instance) it is permitted for them to mark collections down for historical reasons.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

It is worth remembering, of course, that this goes both ways - if someone thought that past failings in this area had a bearing on the present day (Twycross introducing hybrid tigers into the wild for instance) it is permitted for them to mark collections down for historical reasons.

Yeah, true, and every zoo involved in conservation will make errors because this is kind of inevitable in interventions. Conservation is an emerging field and we ultimately learn the lessons we need for improvement through continuous trial and error. A lot of mistakes and sometimes high attrition rates happen on the way to reaching this point.

For example, I know that Jersey once inadvertently introduced chytridiomycosis back to the wild in Majorca with the Majorcan midwife toad (before we possessed advanced knowledge about this pathogen and its transmission in amphibian populations). But now if we look at their programes with amphibians threatened by this infectious disease we can see that things have gotten so much better and scientifically rigorous as a result of these early mistakes.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Well, I reckon we have no one better capable of explaining why Jersey deserves a clean sweep in the category of "hoofstock" than @Carl Jones , so given it seems he has now voted I'd be very interested to hear if he has anything to add beyond the previously-mentioned Pygmy Hog programme

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

How dare you! I have of course closely considered the facts as far as I have been able to ascertain them from the evidence at hand. I have reviewed the map of Colchester Zoo on the internet and it seems to me that they have a collection of the usual suspects confined to most probably muddy paddocks enduring the fog and drizzle, and that is in summer. During winter they are no doubt confined to some dark and cramped stall out of sight. Jersey of course does not have any "hoofstock" but why would they want any? They don't waste space trying to pretend they are Chobe National Park but concentrate on species that reflect their stellar conservation work. Mind you, they did have two Przewalski's horses when I studied there in 1996. Coming from Mongolia, they along with Dall sheep, seem ideally suited to the climate of the British Isles.

Wow, you were a student at the DESMAN course ?

 

[MRJ]

I also get the impression from your description of "most probably muddy paddocks enduring the fog and drizzle, and that is in summer" that you don't much like England and would say the same for any collection

I love England, all those stately homes, castles and steam railways. Nothing more delightful than hunting through places like the Soane Museum, for instance. As for English zoos, it has always been a delight to meet the people who work there, invariably hardworking, committed, passionate and often brilliant. For instance it was a thrill of my life when visiting London Zoo to meet Georgina Mace and Paul Pearce-Kelly.

 

[MRJ]

@MRJ, there are multiple interpretations of your post, including that your outrage is intended in jest. If it isn’t, though, please understand that asking people to explain and justify votes is a legitimate and important part of this game.

Of course my outrage is exaggerated. However I think in a competition like this it is worth asking if a species should be in the collection. For many species it is possible to provide appropriate social groupings, hotspots in enclosures, substantial indoors and other sheltered accommodation and so on. Not so for many "hoofstock" species. Is a couple of zebras shivering in a muddy paddock really a good exhibit? It seems to me this competition is about adding up the number of species, then modifying the result if there are a few nice enclosures. Should not welfare and conservation be front and centre when in this age these are vital for zoos continued social licence?

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Should not welfare and conservation be front and centre when in this age these are vital for zoos continued social licence?

Well said !

 

[MRJ]

Wow, you were a student at the DESMAN course ?

Sadly, no, I was at the summer school. In my time at least, DESMAN (not sure it was called that then) was not available to people from "first world" countries as all places were taken up by scholarship students. Not sure I would have had the time then, anyway.