British Isles Cup Redux - League B - RZSS vs Marwell

[TeaLovingDave]

This one will be quite an interesting one I reckon, as RZSS and Marwell face off against one another in the category of AFRICA. I think there is the scope for interesting discussions and arguments on both sides.

As a reminder, this category *does* include Madagascar, but does not include the Mascarenes or Seychelles.

So, what does everyone reckon?

 

[pipaluk]

My initial thought was RZSS doesn't stand a chance here. However on reflection, Edinburgh does at least justify a point, as one of its strengths is a gaping hole in Marwell's collection - African primates. Edinburgh has the best Chimpanzee exhibit in the UK and probably the best Gelada one too. They also have Drill, Diana and L'hoests monkeys.
Marwell on the other hand got rid of its Diana and King Colobus. monkeys, only to turn their exhibit into probably the worst lemur 'walk through' I have seen(the old lemur area is much better)!
On lemur collection it is about even.
Although Marwell walks it on hoofstock, neither is particularly impressive when it comes to carnivores, birds or reptiles.

 

[Brum]

Not visited either collection as of yet, but Marwell gets an easy 2 point win. Loads of African hoofstock with rarities including Wild Ass, Mountain Zebra, and some less frequently seen antelope. But as mentioned by @pipaluk Edinburgh do rather well with their African primates, Budongo alone is probably worth a point!

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

My initial thought was RZSS doesn't stand a chance here. However on reflection, Edinburgh does at least justify a point, as one of its strengths is a gaping hole in Marwell's collection - African primates. Edinburgh has the best Chimpanzee exhibit in the UK and probably the best Gelada one too. They also have Drill, Diana and L'hoests monkeys.
Marwell on the other hand got rid of its Diana and King Colobus. monkeys, only to turn their exhibit into probably the worst lemur 'walk through' I have seen(the old lemur area is much better)!
On lemur collection it is about even.
Although Marwell walks it on hoofstock, neither is particularly impressive when it comes to carnivores, birds or reptiles.

Yes, I totally agree with you.

The absence of a great ape species or an African monkey species at Marwell really makes things tougher to judge.

The Malagasy species collection at Marwell is quite impressive with narrow striped mongoose, quite a few lemur species and the Dumeril's ground boa (fossas would be nice to have too, didn't they have them at one point ?).

They do have a good African hoofstock collection and one or two small and large carnivores too and a number of African birds and reptiles.

However, the lack of monkeys or great apes puts them at a bit of a loss to Edinburgh IMO.

 

[pipaluk]

Yes, I totally agree with you.

The absence of a great ape species or an African monkey species at Marwell really makes things tougher to judge.

The Malagasy species collection at Marwell is quite impressive with narrow striped mongoose, quite a few lemur species and the Dumeril's ground boa (fossas would be nice to have too, didn't they have them at one point ?).

They do have a good African hoofstock collection and one or two small and large carnivores too and a number of African birds and reptiles.

However, the lack of monkeys or great apes puts them at a bit of a loss to Edinburgh IMO.

Marwell stopped keeping Fossa around 3 years ago, Edinburgh has a lemur collection not that different to Marwell. I think 2-1 Marwell is about right

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Marwell stopped keeping Fossa around 3 years ago, Edinburgh has a lemur collection not that different to Marwell. I think 2-1 Marwell is about right

Would have given it out right to Marwell if they still had Fossa based on their Malagasy collection but need to think about this and will come back to vote later.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

For what it is worth, although I am not particularly fond of chimpanzees as a species - and the visitor areas of the Budongo house are stark, empty and a massive wasted opportunity - the actual enclosure complexes for the inhabitants (both indoor and outdoor) are truly excellent and the building is without a doubt the best chimpanzee exhibit in the UK - and has a decent shout at the Europe title - where inhabitant welfare is concerned.

Moreover, RZSS is *heavily* involved with in-situ conservation programmes pertaining to wild populations of chimpanzees, focusing on a sizeable reserve within the Budongo Forest of Uganda:

RZSS - Budongo Conservation Field Station | RZSS Conservation

As such, even *if* Edinburgh had nothing else to offer in this regard - and it most certainly does, given the excellent collection of other African primates at the zoo even with substantial species reductions in recent years, along with smatterings of other species - RZSS would merit at least one point for their ex-situ and in-situ work with chimpanzees alone..... and I reckon an argument *could* be made that it is significant enough to earn a 2-1 vote for RZSS, considering we have had at least one prior round where a collection with dozens of eligible species faced off against a collection with literally a single eligible species, and people nonetheless gave the latter a 2-1 vote because of the conservation work of said collection

 

[pipaluk]

For what it is worth, although I am not particularly fond of chimpanzees as a species - and the visitor areas of the Budongo house are stark, empty and a massive wasted opportunity - the actual enclosure complexes for the inhabitants (both indoor and outdoor) are truly excellent and the building is without a doubt the best chimpanzee exhibit in the UK - and has a decent shout at the Europe title - where inhabitant welfare is concerned.

Moreover, RZSS is *heavily* involved with in-situ conservation programmes pertaining to wild populations of chimpanzees, focusing on a sizeable reserve within the Budongo Forest of Uganda:

RZSS - Budongo Conservation Field Station | RZSS Conservation

As such, even *if* Edinburgh had nothing else to offer in this regard - and it most certainly does, given the excellent collection of other African primates at the zoo even with substantial species reductions in recent years, along with smatterings of other species - RZSS would merit at least one point for their ex-situ and in-situ work with chimpanzees alone..... and I reckon an argument *could* be made that it is significant enough to earn a 2-1 vote for RZSS, considering we have had at least one prior round where a collection with dozens of eligible species faced off against a collection with literally a single eligible species, and people nonetheless gave the latter a 2-1 vote because of the conservation work of said collection

Given my earlier post I obviously agree completely with your suggestion that Edinburgh deserves at least a point!
Are you referring to Jersey and hoofstock?

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Are you referring to Jersey and hoofstock?

Yep although in all seriousness I think a 2-1 vote for RZSS here would be a lot more justified than a 2-1 for Jersey was there, although for now I am still parking myself at 2-1 Marwell.

 

[pipaluk]

Yep although in all seriousness I think a 2-1 vote for RZSS here would be a lot more justified than a 2-1 for Jersey was there, although for now I am still parking myself at 2-1 Marwell.

I agree, I voted 3-0 Colchester in that, 2 people actually voted 3-0 for Jersey which was strange, especially when the single species at Jersey was warty pig (in UK terms, the suid Meerkat)!
At worst Edinburgh gets a point here anyway!

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I agree, I voted 3-0 Colchester in that, 2 people actually voted 3-0 for Jersey which was strange, especially when the single species at Jersey was warty pig (in UK terms, the suid Meerkat)!
At worst Edinburgh gets a point here anyway!

Except it really isn't really the suid equivalent of a meerkat though is it ?

Considering that meerkats are not even of conservation concern and the warty pig is a critically endangered species.

Yep although in all seriousness I think a 2-1 vote for RZSS here would be a lot more justified than a 2-1 for Jersey was there, although for now I am still parking myself at 2-1 Marwell.

Not to harp on about the Jersey hoofstock cup but to be fair one of the arguments in their favour is a solid one regarding in-situ conservation of the pygmy hog and the ex-situ captive breeding center in India.

 

[pipaluk]

Except it really isn't really the suid equivalent of a meerkat though is it ?

Considering that meerkats are not even of conservation concern and the warty pig is a critically endangered species.

OK, but the warty pig is by far the most common pig in UK zoos, that was all I meant, yes it is endangered, I know that, but not in the UK!

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

OK, but the warty pig is by far the most common pig in UK zoos, that was all I meant, yes it is endangered, I know that, but not in the UK!

Yes, I know what you mean, was just messing around, but I'm quite glad in some ways that is kept so commonly ex-situ given its conservation status.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

For what it is worth, although I am not particularly fond of chimpanzees as a species - and the visitor areas of the Budongo house are stark, empty and a massive wasted opportunity - the actual enclosure complexes for the inhabitants (both indoor and outdoor) are truly excellent and the building is without a doubt the best chimpanzee exhibit in the UK - and has a decent shout at the Europe title - where inhabitant welfare is concerned.

Moreover, RZSS is *heavily* involved with in-situ conservation programmes pertaining to wild populations of chimpanzees, focusing on a sizeable reserve within the Budongo Forest of Uganda:

RZSS - Budongo Conservation Field Station | RZSS Conservation

As such, even *if* Edinburgh had nothing else to offer in this regard - and it most certainly does, given the excellent collection of other African primates at the zoo even with substantial species reductions in recent years, along with smatterings of other species - RZSS would merit at least one point for their ex-situ and in-situ work with chimpanzees alone..... and I reckon an argument *could* be made that it is significant enough to earn a 2-1 vote for RZSS, considering we have had at least one prior round where a collection with dozens of eligible species faced off against a collection with literally a single eligible species, and people nonetheless gave the latter a 2-1 vote because of the conservation work of said collection

Well strangely enough, I was persuaded to vote for RZSS in this poll, I'll give my reasons below.

I know Madagascar was included in the voting criteria of this poll but personally I never really consider / define Malagasy fauna to be "African" but rather as Madagascan. So basically I just write off the species kept at Marwell from that region.

That left Marwell basically with their impressive collection of African hoofstock, cheetah, yellow mongoose, cusimanse and a couple of reptile and bird species. But as you point out Edinburgh has an impressive array of African primates and I am someone involved in primate conservation so there is admittedly a bit of a bias there.

It is something of a full house at the zoo with both great apes and monkeys : Chimpanzee, Diana monkey, gelada baboon, drill, L' Hoest's monkey. Other considerations that made me vote for RZSS were other African species represented that I felt represented the fauna of the continent far more broadly than Marwell's focus on hoofstock.

African hoofstock: Nyala, pygmy hippo, red river hog, Kirk's dik dik, Grevy's zebra and the pygmy goat (sure it is a domestic but I included it anyway).

Other African mammals : Cape porcupine and meerkat.

African reptiles kept include: Pancake tortoise (admittedly not a lot of African reptiles).

African birds kept include: Vulturine guinea fowl, Egyptian vulture, Eastern white pelican, East African crowned crane, black stork and Waldrapp's ibis.

 

[pipaluk]

Well strangely enough, I was persuaded to vote for RZSS in this poll, I'll give my reasons below.

I know Madagascar was included in the voting criteria of this poll but personally I never really consider / define Malagasy fauna to be "African" but rather as Madagascan. So basically I just write off the species kept at Marwell from that region.

That left Marwell basically with their impressive collection of African hoofstock, cheetah, yellow mongoose, cusimanse and a couple of reptile and bird species. But as you point out Edinburgh has an impressive array of African primates and I am someone involved in primate conservation so there is admittedly a bit of a bias there.

It is something of a full house at the zoo with both great apes and monkeys : Chimpanzee, Diana monkey, gelada baboon, drill, L' Hoest's monkey.

Other considerations that made me vote for RZSS were other African species represented that I felt represented the fauna of the continent more broadly then Marwell's focus on hoofstock.

African hoofstock: Nyala, red river hog, Kirk's dik dik, Grevy's zebra and the pygmy goat (sure it is a domestic but I included it anyway).

Other African mammals : Cape porcupine and meerkat.

African reptiles kept include: Pancake tortoise,

African birds kept include: Vulturine guinea fowl, Egyptian vulture, Eastern white pelican, East African crowned crane, black stork and Waldrapp's ibis.

You forgot the Pygmy hippo! Although that is still at Marwell as well so makes no difference

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

You forgot the Pygmy hippo! Although that is still at Marwell as well so makes no difference

Thanks, good point, have included it now.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

African hoofstock: Nyala, pygmy hippo, red river hog, Kirk's dik dik, Grevy's zebra and the pygmy goat (sure it is a domestic but I included it anyway).

African birds kept include: Vulturine guinea fowl, Egyptian vulture, Eastern white pelican, East African crowned crane, black stork and Waldrapp's ibis.

It is also worth noting that the Edinburgh dik-diks are held in a rather excellent mixed waterbird exhibit which includes several of the species you listed in the second quoted statement, along with a number of other taxa.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

It is also worth noting that the Edinburgh dik-diks are held in a rather excellent mixed waterbird exhibit which includes several of the species you listed in the second quoted statement, along with a number of other taxa.

Visited Edinburgh zoo almost two decades ago but I bet it has totally changed from what I remember it as looking like.

Didn't know about this mixed species enclosure but yes it would probably count in the favour of RZSS.

Didn't they used to have more African primates ?

I seem to remember them having Allen's swamp monkey and maybe Roloway monkeys when I visited but I might well be mistaken about that.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Didn't they used to have more African primates ?

Indeed - as I mentioned upthread they have had pretty substantial losses to the collection in the last decade or two, not merely in terms of primates; African species of note they have ceased to keep in the last 10-15 years include:

Primates:

Hamlyn's Guenon - 2012
Aye-aye - 2009
Sclater's Lemur - 2013
Mongoose Lemur - 2014
Rufous Lemur - 2013
Moholi Bushbaby - 2012
Alaotra Gentle Lemur - 2014
Barbary Macaque - 2017
Central Common Chimpanzee - 2018
Guinea Baboon - 2014
Red Ruffed Lemur - 2009

Otherwise:

Addax - 2009
Emin's Pouched Rat - 2009
Gambian Pouched Rat - 2014
Nile Lechwe - 2017
Eastern Aardwolf - 2013
Serval - 2010
African Hunting Dog - 2018
Central African Ratel - 2010
Northern Warthog - 2012
Rock Hyrax - 2019
Eastern Bongo - 2012
Lesser Kudu - 2016
Greater Kudu - 2012

I seem to remember them having Allen's swamp monkey and maybe Roloway monkeys when I visited but I might well be mistaken about that.

They *did* hold both of those species, but we're talking early to mid 1990s there.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Indeed - as I mentioned upthread they have had pretty substantial losses to the collection in the last decade or two, not merely in terms of primates; African species of note they have ceased to keep in the last 10-15 years include:

Primates:

Hamlyn's Guenon - 2012
Aye-aye - 2009
Sclater's Lemur - 2013
Mongoose Lemur - 2014
Rufous Lemur - 2013
Moholi Bushbaby - 2012
Alaotra Gentle Lemur - 2014
Barbary Macaque - 2017
Central Common Chimpanzee - 2018
Guinea Baboon - 2014
Red Ruffed Lemur - 2009

Otherwise:

Addax - 2009
Emin's Pouched Rat - 2009
Gambian Pouched Rat - 2014
Nile Lechwe - 2017
Eastern Aardwolf - 2013
Serval - 2010
African Hunting Dog - 2018
Central African Ratel - 2010
Northern Warthog - 2012
Rock Hyrax - 2019
Eastern Bongo - 2012
Lesser Kudu - 2016
Greater Kudu - 2012



They *did* hold both of those species, but we're talking early to mid 1990s there.

A great collection of African monkeys and prosimians indeed.

The collection of other African mammals that they have kept over the years is also impressive.

I suppose if we are including historically kept mammals then the case is even stronger for RZSS in this poll contest.