British Isles Cup Redux - League B - ZSL (London/Whipsnade) vs RZSS (Edinburgh/HWP)

ZSL vs RZSS - CARNIVORES


  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .

TeaLovingDave

Moderator
Staff member
15+ year member
An organisation which has yet to test its mettle - ZSL - comes face to face against a collection which has enjoyed early success..... but will this success be replicated, or will RZSS fall against the older and (theoretically) more august organisation?

The category is one which I hope will prompt much discussion on both sides of the argument, and which as such I look forward to following..... CARNIVORES.

So, what does everyone think?
 
I dunno...I think it's gonna be hard to trump polar bears and giant pandas (yeah, I know they eat bamboo, but they are technically carnivores)
 
Both London and Edinburgh are not what they once were for carnivores, especially London zoo which would be beaten by many of the Uks smaller zoos! The only real contribution from London is the narrow striped Mongoose. Edinburgh - sun bear and giant panda.
So this is almost down to a shoot out between HWP and Whipsnade who both have good enclosures for most species.
2-1 RZSS probably,
 
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Are we talking Carnivora or any carnivorous taxa? If the latter, ZSl is the clear winner with numerous species of carnivorous birds, a (still) exceptional reptile/amphibian collection containing many carnivorous species and very good displays of carnivorous invertebrates.

If the former, it is probably a draw for me, or with ZSL just edging it.
 
Are we talking Carnivora or any carnivorous taxa? If the latter, ZSl is the clear winner with numerous species of carnivorous birds, a (still) exceptional reptile/amphibian collection containing many carnivorous species and very good displays of carnivorous invertebrates.

If the former, it is probably a draw for me, or with ZSL just edging it.
Carnivora
 
If the former, it is probably a draw for me, or with ZSL just edging it.

As is probably obvious from the way I have voted, I would tend to disagree with you that ZSL deserves the edge in this one :P for the sake of transparency, my thought process is as follows:

Collection:

RZSS has a total of 22 carnivoran species, to the 15 held at ZSL; this is despite the fact that (as I have openly bemoaned for many years) the former has undergone a comprehensive programme of getting rid of the greater part of their previously-excellent collection of carnivorous oddities, often on the grounds that they weren't deemed "showy" enough to be worth keeping. There is a reasonable amount of overlap between the species kept at ZSL and those kept at RZSS too, with only six of the species held at ZSL being unique to that organisation within this match. Of the unique species which *are* held by ZSL, one has been actively mismanaged into (near) extinction over the last few decades and represents a massive waste of potential - the Sri Lankan Sloth Bear - whilst another is on the anti-invasive list and as such will soon be gone from the collection. The presence of Narrow-striped Boky is more or less the only thing of note ZSL has to offer in this regard.

Exhibitry:

First things first..... Highland Wildlife Park has some of the best carnivore exhibits in Europe - especially where the Snow Leopard, Polar Bear, Eurasian Wolf and Amur Tiger are concerned - with the bear exhibit being *the* best I have seen for the species full stop, and the snow leopard exhibit close to this. The remaining exhibits at this collection all reach pretty high standards, with no low points. Over at Edinburgh, despite the aforementioned winding-down of the carnivore collection the remaining exhibits are still quite good, with particularly good showings for the Asiatic Lion, Sumatran Tiger and Sun Bear enclosures - the new Giant Panda exhibit is also pretty good and significantly larger than the old exhibit, even if I personally think it is located in a position a shade too exposed to the elements. None of the exhibits at either collection fall foul of the temptation towards overtheming or ill-advised attempts at "immersion" by filling the majority of the available space with mock rock, market stalls and suchlike, with the actual animal enclosures an afterthought.

Conversely, the majority of the carnivore exhibits at London are either unremarkable, or horribly overthemed messes of the sort I mention above :P the exhibits at Whipsnade are somewhat better, but I would suggest only the Wolverine and Cheetah exhibits stand out.

Conservation:

Both organisations pull their weight pretty well in the realm of in-situ conservation as a whole, but where carnivores are concerned I think that RZSS has the definite edge when it comes to conservation work, given the fact that both collections are heavily involved in the Scottish Wildcat programme, both in terms of captive breeding, genetic testing and reintroduction, whilst HWP has a large and extensive off-show breeding facility for Amur Leopard which is specifically designed to minimise the human contact of any cubs born, allowing them to be reintroduced into the wild with the highest possible chance of success. ZSL, although having involvement in many relevant in-situ programmes itself, doesn't really have much to offer where ex-situ work, and work on carnivore populations closer to home, is concerned.

It must, however, be said that this *is* the area in which ZSL shines the most, even if I still think RZSS beats it here.

Overall Management:

To be honest, I think that the recent history of the carnivore collections at *both* organisations displays a certain level of mismanagement and decline - for RZSS, the drain on finances and resulting loss of much of the prior carnivore diversity which the Giant Panda loan has caused; for ZSL the long slow decline of the carnivore collection, over-themed exhibit complexes for lions and tigers which are "all fur coat and no knickers" as it were and take up massive swathes of space which could have been used for better purposes, and much that is lost not being replaced. However, RZSS has displayed *some* bright points in the last decade along with the low points - the development of not one but two exceptionally good polar bear exhibits and the successful breeding of this species, the construction of the off-show breeding facility for Amur Leopard, construction of several other new exhibits which all reach or exceed expectations and potential, and (to be blunt) rather more breeding success across the board than has been seen at ZSL :P


---

With this all said, I was torn between a 3-0 vote for RZSS, and going 2-1 in light of those strengths which ZSL does display.... but ultimately, a few things swayed me towards the former:

  • Despite the decline of the carnivore collection at RZSS over the last decade, there are enough bright points that I see a chance for this decline to be reversed in time; I am somewhat more pessimistic in this regard where ZSL is concerned.
  • ZSL is responsible for the construction of Land of the Lions and Tiger Territory in the last decade :P
  • RZSS has the polar bear exhibit, amur leopard exhibit and snow leopard exhibit up its sleeve.
  • Basically, ZSL demonstrates so much more wasted potential than does RZSS. It *should* be the best zoo organisation in the country, in charge of the best zoos in the country.... but it doesn't come close, either in terms of carnivores or as a whole :(

I think that a 2-1 vote for RZSS is entirely acceptable and possibly the best option for most people voting, as seems to be the case looking at the votes right now, and I acknowledge that my sheer love for the carnivore high points at HWP may well influence my feelings in this regard (although I hope the amount of criticism I have levelled at RZSS over the last few years demonstrates I am not overly biased towards the collection).... but I think I have demonstrated why a 2-1 vote for ZSL is definitely *not* justified.
 
I can't accept that only the cheetah and wolverine stand out at Whipsnade, I would suggest the tiger, brown bear, sloth bear, hunting dog, lynx enclosures are all at least above average, probably the lions too. because some aren't quite as good as those at HWP (in your opinion), I don't think any are bad enough to justify 3-0 or a marginal difference in number of species. I am sticking at 2-1
 
I can't accept that only the cheetah and wolverine stand out at Whipsnade, I would suggest the tiger, brown bear, sloth bear, hunting dog, lynx enclosures are all at least above average, probably the lions too. because some aren't quite as good as those at HWP (in your opinion), I don't think any are bad enough to justify 3-0 or a marginal difference in number of species. I am sticking at 2-1

Oh, I wasn't trying to convince the 2-1 RZSS voters to shift to 3-0 RZSS, I was more trying to shift the one 2-1 ZSL voter to shift to 2-1 RZSS :P
 
Oh, I wasn't trying to convince the 2-1 RZSS voters to shift to 3-0 RZSS, I was more trying to shift the one 2-1 ZSL voter to shift to 2-1 RZSS :p
Sorry, I misread the last line of your original post, I had thought you said 2-1 RZSS was definitely not justified! You did at least acknowledge elsewhere why ZSL justified a point!
 
Oh, I wasn't trying to convince the 2-1 RZSS voters to shift to 3-0 RZSS, I was more trying to shift the one 2-1 ZSL voter to shift to 2-1 RZSS :p

I'm probably just a ZSL partisan (possibly not the most fashionable reputation on these forums :) ), which may be because I've never been to HWP (though it is on the list). Edinburgh has never floated my boat at all, especially for carnivores (it would win on primates, in the same contest for me), so maybe I am voting blind, as it were.

I think the narrow striped mongoose are a feather in the cap, plus (whisper it) I actually like Land of the Lions and Tiger Territory (don't kill me!)
 
Edinburgh has never floated my boat at all, especially for carnivores (it would win on primates, in the same contest for me), so maybe I am voting blind, as it were.

I imagine their carnivore collection six or seven years ago - at which time Edinburgh still had species such as Wolverine, Marbled Polecat, Clouded Leopard, Aardwolf, Asian Golden Cat, Hunting Dog and Maned Wolf, and HWP still had Pallas Cat - would have "floated your boat" a lot more :p

) I actually like Land of the Lions and Tiger Territory (don't kill me!)

A general sense of ennui and soul-crushing despair at the continuing decline of ZSL will do that for me ;)
 
I imagine their carnivore collection six or seven years ago - at which time Edinburgh still had species such as Wolverine, Marbled Polecat, Clouded Leopard, Aardwolf, Asian Golden Cat, Hunting Dog and Maned Wolf, and HWP still had Pallas Cat - would have "floated your boat" a lot more :p

Well, I remember a rainy hour or so trying to see the polecat, so maybe only negatively! (In all honesty, a much loved zoo in those days, maybe I was being a bit harsh...)
 
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