Captive Orca News

monkeyarmy said:
What are the benefits to the whales of being kept in captivity? Are their any minimal dimensions for their pools? Why do people think no orca has reahed its natural life expectancy while in the care of the various Sea Worlds?
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Laws vary depending on the nation. The US has a minimum tank size, though it's not very big for a single orca Read about them here. Other countries have their own laws, some stricter, some looser.

Also, there are a few captive orcas that reached the wild lifespan. Corky and Lolita are both about 50, average age for wild females. There are a few males that reached 30, the average for males. But for the most part, not many captive orcas made it past their 20's. The reason for this is up for debate, a lot of people think that various aspects of the captive environment are too stressful for orcas, and so stress contributes to illness and whatnot.
 
monkeyarmy said:
What are the benefits to the whales of being kept in captivity? Are their any minimal dimensions for their pools? Why do people think no orca has reahed its natural life expectancy while in the care of the various Sea Worlds?
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Plenty of orcas have reached their wild life expectancies, and Corky is almost exceeding that life expectancy. Other orcas at SeaWorld that have reached the expectancy (30-50 years) are Ulisses, Kasatka, Tilikum, and Katina.
 
Freya have died at Marineland Antibes after a long illness. She was about 35 years old :(
 
monkeyarmy said:
Why do people think no orca has reahed its natural life expectancy while in the care of the various Sea Worlds?
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Maybe because they've only been successfully bred in captivity since the late 80's and animals don't just suddenly become elderly?

The main benefits to the whales is that non-releasable animals have a place they can comfortably live in.
 
Captive Russian Orcas

Someone posted this picture of the orcas at the stadium at the new Moscow aquarium. I'm linking to the blog page since the source they linked to isn't working any more, but the blog still has the picture.
 
So this blog found some photos and videos of the Russian orcas at the Moscow aquarium. They have videos of the shows and lots of people are in the audience, so it looks like the place might be open now? Or maybe it's like, a preview opening where only certain people get to attend? It's not clear. Whatever, the blog has lots of pictures and video if you guys are curious about the place and the whales. I wonder how deep the tank is?

Still not much word on where the other Russian orcas might be. It seems the logo for the soon-to-be-opened Primorsky Aquarium has orcas on it, and some of the plans for the aquarium show orca exhibits. (apparently the orca Narnia was originally going to be sent there?) But their website doesn't mention orcas, granted, it took a while to confirm that orcas were at the Moscow aquarium, but there's still no telling so far.

I wonder how long it will be before the other orcas pop up?
 
Katina, Makaio, and Tilikum have been spending time together as of late according to SeaWorld (just scroll down its from their question and answer sections there is a picture.) Does anyone have any idea why this is? I thought they didn't get along for the most part. Are they being bred again or is this just a chance for Tilikum to have some interaction with someone other than Trua?

You Ask. We Answer. - SeaWorld Behind The Scenes
 
wensleydale said:
Katina, Makaio, and Tilikum have been spending time together as of late according to SeaWorld (just scroll down its from their question and answer sections there is a picture.) Does anyone have any idea why this is? I thought they didn't get along for the most part. Are they being bred again or is this just a chance for Tilikum to have some interaction with someone other than Trua?

You Ask. We Answer. - SeaWorld Behind The Scenes
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I've heard it's for the social interaction, that's what they seem to be implying. I don't think they're dumb enough to try and breed him. (and it's not even about the "he killed people" thing, his genes are overrepresented in the captive population and SW knows it) There's speculation that SW is doing this to combat criticism over his living conditions.

I'm wondering if it's also possible that they're doing this in anticipation for the Blue World Project. I know they don't plan on building new tanks for Orlando for at least a few years, but maybe they want him to be able to spend more time in the big new area and he'll need to be able to get along with the other whales to do it? I dunno.
 
TheMightyOrca said:
I've heard it's for the social interaction, that's what they seem to be implying. I don't think they're dumb enough to try and breed him. (and it's not even about the "he killed people" thing, his genes are overrepresented in the captive population and SW knows it) There's speculation that SW is doing this to combat criticism over his living conditions.

I'm wondering if it's also possible that they're doing this in anticipation for the Blue World Project. I know they don't plan on building new tanks for Orlando for at least a few years, but maybe they want him to be able to spend more time in the big new area and he'll need to be able to get along with the other whales to do it? I dunno.
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If they're getting along that's great, I just know that Katina has a reputation for letting him know where his place is.
 
A while back someone indicated on another thread that they would pay to see Orca's going after live fish. They might get their wish when the forthcoming Blue World Project comes to fruition. They have indicated that live fish might be offered to the animals as a form of enrichment.

You might have to scroll down to find it in this FAQ section, but it is there.

Will the killer whales "hunt" in the new habitats?

I'm not such a fan of the idea actually, I think that live feeding isn't necessarily in the interest of animal welfare. For example will the Whales fight over them and get injured? Will the fish have a reasonable chance to escape or will they end up dying a horrible death due to being cornered? Of course the new habitat will be very large and that might make the welfare of the fish in that regard a non issue, but I need to know more about how this would be done. And in general I don't believe that live feeding is necessary to give an animal adequate enrichment, frankly I think the idea of giving them live fish is overboard.
 
Interesting thread. I'm not a supporter of live food for captive animals; simply because live food exacerbates aggression in animals.

I think feeding the orcas live fish would lead to negative behavioral outcomes and loss of cohesion within the group. It's better to have a group of placid animals, especially when they are so large and live in groups. Live food may bring out competition between different animals and lead to bullying etc.

I'm all for enrichment; but we have to be realistic that they are living in a zoo. Plus in the wild they swim for hours and hours in the ocean without seeing anything but an expanse of blue water for miles and miles. They must get just as bored in the wild as they do in captivity.

I watched a story about how environmental activists are now trying to free Lolita and I was very disappointed. After seeing Keiko die in a similar way I think we need to start getting realistic about captive orcas.

The orcas are in captivity; it's not ideal but it's the reality of the situation. I think we need to try and keep the current population in captivity at this time viable; that means engaging in a breeding program that keeps the population genetically viable. And create larger deeper enclosures that exhibit them in a way that displays more natural behaviors. I think it's crazy to talk about releasing animals; as this will most likely end in mortality. Plus keeping what is already in captivity in zoos ensures there is no demand to go and take more from the wild.

When I see how Keiko needlessly died; and seeing such valuable genes go to waste, it makes me sad that people can not be more rational instead of emotional when dealing with orcas.

I see Sea World is making new enclosures which I think is good; but one thing I think they need to do is build walls/barriers around the enclosures to stop the orcas falling out in case they jump/fall out by accident. I have been watching the Sea World shows on youtube and cringe every time the orcas do a jump near the side of the tank, as one wrong move or bad timing would see the animal go over the edge; and such a large animal would not survive falling out of such a tank. They need barriers on any future tanks.

I can understand why Sea World is copping so much criticism, as they could do a lot better when it comes to providing the orcas with better care considering the revenue they generate for the company. One does come away feeling they are exploited; but it looks like they are actively trying to make a change for the better. But I think Sea World needs to start getting serious about captive mortality and stopping deaths in captivity; as on the program about Lolita it said orca females can live to 100 years; so whatever is causing orcas to die so young in captivity( which I daresay is from the stress of performing everyday and the tanks not having adequate shading and being too shallow and small). Maybe they are not getting enough exercise and dieing of fat build up in their organs. I think having artificial waves and currents in any new enclosures is a must so they get the adequate exercise needed to keep them fit.

The government, environmentalists and critics don't realize if they keep being irrational in their arguments when it comes to orcas and captivity it will only lead Sea World to move their operations to the Middle East and Asia where revenue would exceed what they are currently getting in the US.

But I don't think anyone should be allowed to take any more orcas from the wild; we should be focusing on stopping mortality in captivity and sustainable captive breeding. Just my two cents.
 
^ I just want to throw in that sustainable captive breeding isn't gonna go for much longer without wild captures. There's not a lot of diversity in the captive population. There are those recently captured Russian orcas, but working with them would just encourage wild captures. As for Keiko, even if they kept him in captivity, he probably wouldn't have been bred. SeaWorld had opportunities to take him and they weren't interested. I also disagree on his death being a senseless tragedy. Sure, he didn't really return to the wild, but he was better off than if he stayed in Mexico. And he died of a disease that's common in both captive and wild orca, and he was about to hit the average lifespan for a wild male orca anyway. But I do agree that a Lolita release probably wouldn't work. Proponents of her release expect that the family bond would kick in and her mother/podmates would take her back quickly, as orcas do have strong social bonds and long memories. But without precedent, I'm a bit skeptical. No one has ever released a long-term captive orca back to its family. But I still want her to have better living conditions, that tank is just an embarrassment.

The 100 years thing... I want to point out that that's an extreme and not a fair point of comparison. (and just to nitpick, I'm rather skeptical that Granny is 100. Probably more in her 80's, which is still quite old for a wild orca) Wild female orcas average out about 50. But you are correct that it is higher than the average for captive orca.

Anyway. Marineland Antibes is having problems due to flooding, it's affecting the orcas too. Muddy water in a bunch of tanks. Hope cleaning it up doesn't take too long.

VIDÉOS. Le Marineland d'Antibes, touché par les intempéries, craint pour ses animaux
 
TheMightyOrca said:
The 100 years thing... I want to point out that that's an extreme and not a fair point of comparison. (and just to nitpick, I'm rather skeptical that Granny is 100. Probably more in her 80's, which is still quite old for a wild orca) Wild female orcas average out about 50. But you are correct that it is higher than the average for captive orca.
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Im still thinking that's too old, she was first seen in 1967 and was seen in '71 with an adult male orca which was assumed to be her son, assumed to be 20, she has not given birth since then, so they assume she must have been at the end of her breeding age when she had a son. As you can see there's a bunch of assumptions there and rather little reason for those assumptions. We can reliably say that she's over 50, but beyond that i don't think we can say.
 
TheMightyOrca said:
^ I just want to throw in that sustainable captive breeding isn't gonna go for much longer without wild captures. There's not a lot of diversity in the captive population. There are those recently captured Russian orcas, but working with them would just encourage wild captures. As for Keiko, even if they kept him in captivity, he probably wouldn't have been bred. SeaWorld had opportunities to take him and they weren't interested. I also disagree on his death being a senseless tragedy. Sure, he didn't really return to the wild, but he was better off than if he stayed in Mexico. And he died of a disease that's common in both captive and wild orca, and he was about to hit the average lifespan for a wild male orca anyway. But I do agree that a Lolita release probably wouldn't work. Proponents of her release expect that the family bond would kick in and her mother/podmates would take her back quickly, as orcas do have strong social bonds and long memories. But without precedent, I'm a bit skeptical. No one has ever released a long-term captive orca back to its family. But I still want her to have better living conditions, that tank is just an embarrassment.

The 100 years thing... I want to point out that that's an extreme and not a fair point of comparison. (and just to nitpick, I'm rather skeptical that Granny is 100. Probably more in her 80's, which is still quite old for a wild orca) Wild female orcas average out about 50. But you are correct that it is higher than the average for captive orca.

Anyway. Marineland Antibes is having problems due to flooding, it's affecting the orcas too. Muddy water in a bunch of tanks. Hope cleaning it up doesn't take too long.

VIDÉOS. Le Marineland d'Antibes, touché par les intempéries, craint pour ses animaux
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Wow really interesting information. Thanks.

Yes I agree that a captive population is not viable. I don't think they should be taking any more from the wild.

I guess if I want to see these animals up close I will probably have to do so soon, as I read somewhere that in the last 10 years 40 or so Orcas have died at Sea World, proving they are not suitable for captivity.

When you consider these are wild animals, and not domesticated yet, it is actually incredible how well they react to humans.

I guess Keiko showed that rehabilitation doesn't work. I am always amazed when I read stories about people not wanting Orcas. The same thing happened to a male Orca called Junior in Canada who was left to languish isolated in a tank. This type of behavior demonstrated by the theme parks that is not in the best interest of the animals shows to me that they are seen as nothing more than circus animals to be worked until they die.

Personally I don't see how it is viable to build all these new enclosures and spend all that money when all the captive Orcas will probably die within the next decade. It would be interesting to know what it is about captivity that is bad for them. Is it the chilling of the water, the chemicals or maybe the temperature fluctuations in such shallow water from night to day. It's so puzzling how some like Lolita live for a long time in terrible conditions; while others in better conditions die so young.

I have to wonder if they were given optimal conditions such as larger deeper tanks, and not made to perform, if they would be more successful in captivity. But they seem to be so delicate in captivity and die so easily that it's obvious they are not suited to it.

That's worrying news about the French Orcas! I expect the stress of this will probably lead to more deaths.

I find the whole Russian capture and display of Orcas so weird. I mean how could they be so out of touch with the reality of the public mood on such a thing? And how could they not realize that tourism to go see the Orcas in the wild is much more valuable in the long term. I get the feeling that for them keeping Orcas is somehow showing the world they are still a powerful country; as keeping an animal as large as an Orca in captivity isn't something many countries would have the resources to do. It's a symbol of power and 'Empire' in a way.

I just had a thought. We have wild dolphins here in Australia that come and are fed by tourists in certain places. I wonder if somehow they could implement such a thing with the current captive Orcas? I mean they could release them into sea pens and then feed them at certain times every day, and then continue to feed them at those times after opening the pens and you would end up with a wild pod of Orcas that could be fed by hand? Ok maybe that idea is a bit extreme but maybe worth considering.
 
wildzoo said:
Personally I don't see how it is viable to build all these new enclosures and spend all that money when all the captive Orcas will probably die within the next decade. It would be interesting to know what it is about captivity that is bad for them. Is it the chilling of the water, the chemicals or maybe the temperature fluctuations in such shallow water from night to day. It's so puzzling how some like Lolita live for a long time in terrible conditions; while others in better conditions die so young.

I have to wonder if they were given optimal conditions such as larger deeper tanks, and not made to perform, if they would be more successful in captivity. But they seem to be so delicate in captivity and die so easily that it's obvious they are not suited to it.
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All species have animals that die below their maximum possible lifespan both in captivity and in the wild, because that is their maximum possible lifespan and not all animals will reach it.
The young orca are delicate and in the wild quite a lot don't survive, in captivity some also don't survive.

If you have a read through the deaths in this wiki page - Captive Orcas

they're pretty much all natural causes and the ages of death are comparable with the animals dying in the wild pods as you see here - Southern Resident Pods
 
wildzoo said:
---

I guess Keiko showed that rehabilitation doesn't work. I am always amazed when I read stories about people not wanting Orcas. The same thing happened to a male Orca called Junior in Canada who was left to languish isolated in a tank. This type of behavior demonstrated by the theme parks that is not in the best interest of the animals shows to me that they are seen as nothing more than circus animals to be worked until they die.

Personally I don't see how it is viable to build all these new enclosures and spend all that money when all the captive Orcas will probably die within the next decade. It would be interesting to know what it is about captivity that is bad for them. Is it the chilling of the water, the chemicals or maybe the temperature fluctuations in such shallow water from night to day. It's so puzzling how some like Lolita live for a long time in terrible conditions; while others in better conditions die so young.

I have to wonder if they were given optimal conditions such as larger deeper tanks, and not made to perform, if they would be more successful in captivity. But they seem to be so delicate in captivity and die so easily that it's obvious they are not suited to it.

---

I find the whole Russian capture and display of Orcas so weird. I mean how could they be so out of touch with the reality of the public mood on such a thing? And how could they not realize that tourism to go see the Orcas in the wild is much more valuable in the long term. I get the feeling that for them keeping Orcas is somehow showing the world they are still a powerful country; as keeping an animal as large as an Orca in captivity isn't something many countries would have the resources to do. It's a symbol of power and 'Empire' in a way.

I just had a thought. We have wild dolphins here in Australia that come and are fed by tourists in certain places. I wonder if somehow they could implement such a thing with the current captive Orcas? I mean they could release them into sea pens and then feed them at certain times every day, and then continue to feed them at those times after opening the pens and you would end up with a wild pod of Orcas that could be fed by hand? Ok maybe that idea is a bit extreme but maybe worth considering.
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Keiko was one whale and he wasn't a particularly good candidate for release. It's not fair to say that rehabilitation doesn't work based on this one example. Researchers were never able to locate Keiko's original pod, a pretty major aspect for the lives of wild orca. Rehabilitation might work for a different orca, but outside of the recently captured Russian orcas, there aren't really any good candidates.

As for the viability of the new tanks... A good chunk of the whales will probably be around in 10 years, there are some younger animals in there. (and the captive lifespan is slowly increasing, though it's still not very high) They're also gonna keep breeding to replace the ones that die. Maybe better living conditions would improve their lifespan, it's generally believed that they don't live long because of stress related to captivity. Larger tanks, better management, and more enrichment may benefit them.

I don't think Russia has as much stigma against orca captivity. There are certainly people there fighting and protesting it, but it's not getting the same reaction it would get in the US. More and more people all over Asia have extra spending money, so, that's more people to go to aquariums and theme parks. And orcas are a huge attraction.

Don't think your idea would work for captive orcas. Again, outside of the Russian orcas, hardly any of them would be good candidates for release. I could maybe see that idea working for Lolita (if she's in good enough health) but not any of the others. (it is pretty much what they did with Keiko) For starters, a lot of captive orca have holes drilled in their teeth. They need to be cleaned out multiple times a day, can't do that in the wild. Second, hardly any of them have known family. Without a family to take them in, they're not really gonna be able to live as a normal, wild orca. Third, most of the captive bred orcas are mixes of different populations. Even if one could be released into the wild, it might not be responsible.
 
Devi said:
All species have animals that die below their maximum possible lifespan both in captivity and in the wild, because that is their maximum possible lifespan and not all animals will reach it.
The young orca are delicate and in the wild quite a lot don't survive, in captivity some also don't survive.

If you have a read through the deaths in this wiki page - Captive Orcas

they're pretty much all natural causes and the ages of death are comparable with the animals dying in the wild pods as you see here - Southern Resident Pods
Click to expand...

I guess what I meant was despite some of the captives living until their wild ages, for me I am more concerned with the numbers of animals that die for every successful wild capture. It seems every wild capture involves the mortality of either an adult or baby.

The wild populations seem extremely delicate. I used to think keeping Orcas was justifiable once, but the more I look at the impact captures have on wild pods the more I realize that nothing can justify captures.


TheMightyOrca said:
Keiko was one whale and he wasn't a particularly good candidate for release. It's not fair to say that rehabilitation doesn't work based on this one example. Researchers were never able to locate Keiko's original pod, a pretty major aspect for the lives of wild orca. Rehabilitation might work for a different orca, but outside of the recently captured Russian orcas, there aren't really any good candidates.

As for the viability of the new tanks... A good chunk of the whales will probably be around in 10 years, there are some younger animals in there. (and the captive lifespan is slowly increasing, though it's still not very high) They're also gonna keep breeding to replace the ones that die. Maybe better living conditions would improve their lifespan, it's generally believed that they don't live long because of stress related to captivity. Larger tanks, better management, and more enrichment may benefit them.

I don't think Russia has as much stigma against orca captivity. There are certainly people there fighting and protesting it, but it's not getting the same reaction it would get in the US. More and more people all over Asia have extra spending money, so, that's more people to go to aquariums and theme parks. And orcas are a huge attraction.

Don't think your idea would work for captive orcas. Again, outside of the Russian orcas, hardly any of them would be good candidates for release. I could maybe see that idea working for Lolita (if she's in good enough health) but not any of the others. (it is pretty much what they did with Keiko) For starters, a lot of captive orca have holes drilled in their teeth. They need to be cleaned out multiple times a day, can't do that in the wild. Second, hardly any of them have known family. Without a family to take them in, they're not really gonna be able to live as a normal, wild orca. Third, most of the captive bred orcas are mixes of different populations. Even if one could be released into the wild, it might not be responsible.
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Yeah I don't see how captive breeding is viable. I mean the populations are just not large enough to sustain any genetic diversity. I don't see how many will still be alive in 10 years.

What worries me is that the Russians spent millions on all these sparkly new enclosures, and I daresay when Orcas die they will expect to fill them again with wild caught babies. I don't know why suddenly Russia needed Orcas after all these years without them. It worries me they are setting a trend in asia that it's acceptable to keep them.

I worry about what is going to happen now that countries such as China may have a desire for these marine parks. I feel asia lacks regard for the importance of marine mammal conservation. I mean we all saw what happened to the Baji.

I used to give Sea World the benefit of the doubt, but after some of the stuff I have read about them I no longer do. But I guess it's not their fault; what we are seeing here is what happens when a society values the economy above all else. Because we are dealing with large sophisticated mammals just makes it more obvious of how wrong our priorities as a society are; something that wouldn't be so obvious if we were dealing with any other company that uses methods other than marine mammal displays to generate income.
 
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