Nikola Chavkosk
Well-Known Member
Actualy I think that a half of dozen suitable unrelated rhinos are not sufficient as insurance of eventual extinction. For geneticaly healthy population, at least for mammals, are needed at least 12-20 founders.
Capture of all Javan rhinos?
- Thread starter Nikola Chavkosk
- Start date
Actualy I think that a half of dozen suitable unrelated rhinos are not sufficient as insurance of eventual extinction. For geneticaly healthy population, at least for mammals, are needed at least 12-20 founders.
Have you considered the cost of locating, catching and transporting just one rhino without undue risk to the animal or damage to the environment?
It might be justifiable to rescue an isolated individual which was unlikely to ever encounter another rhino - but the amount of fieldwork required to confirm those circumstances would be daunting in itself. And of course a single rhino would be of no conservation value. A campaign to research the whole possible range of the species to identify all the specimens in this situation might be desirable but would also be exceedingly difficult and exceedingly expensive.
Alan
It might be justifiable to rescue an isolated individual which was unlikely to ever encounter another rhino - but the amount of fieldwork required to confirm those circumstances would be daunting in itself. And of course a single rhino would be of no conservation value. A campaign to research the whole possible range of the species to identify all the specimens in this situation might be desirable but would also be exceedingly difficult and exceedingly expensive.
Alan
Nikola Chavkosk
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I can suppose how much will cost. For one rhino, including catching, translocating, prepearing for transport, airplane transport, surely more than 30,000.0 euros, if that not too cheap. And the time required to convey a project like capture of all Javan rhino, will be so long, maybe some 4-6 years. What you think about the financial cost of such project, eg, just for removing one Javan rhino?
I don't think supposition is sufficient here. I don't see why air transport is required: I am sure that the Indonesian government would prefer any breeding project to be on Java. But I am interested to know how you propose to locate and capture the rhino and then transport it to the nearest road suitable for a normal vehicle: if this distance were 10 km, this might require the felling of 1000 trees to construct a path and bridge streams etc, then you would need to get a suitable all-terrain vehicle into and out of the forest.
Alan
Nikola Chavkosk
Well-Known Member
Well I am not expert for that field. But may be used method for capture as that who was used for capturing of 40 Sumatran rhinos as project for ex situ conservation, well before 30 years, of wich, the last captive sumatran rhino outside of Indonesia, namely, Haarpan from Cincinaty was sent in Indonesia last year.
I don't think that captivity just on Java would be good idea, because there was a case in wich 8 or more sumatran rhinos were whiped out because of epdemic of Sura (protosoan diseases), on Sumatra. I think it is best they to be sent only in Europe or only in USA.
You're forgetting that part of the reason Harapan was eventually sent to Indonesia was that the last few other rhinos left in the US, including his sister Suci, died of health issues. Just because you send an animal to a different continent, doesn't mean they're free from disease or other health affects.
~Thylo
Nikola Chavkosk
Well-Known Member
You're forgetting that part of the reason Harapan was eventually sent to Indonesia was that the last few other rhinos left in the US, including his sister Suci, died of health issues. Just because you send an animal to a different continent, doesn't mean they're free from disease or other health affects.
~Thylo
I didn't knew it about the health issues. Anyway, if they were kept, the several left sumatran rhinos, eventualy will died without contributing to remaining population on Sumatra, because the captive population in USA hade not chance for sustainability without importing at least 10 other sumatran rhinos.
Yes they can face diseases everywhere, but some diseases are endemic and their ecosystem involves the local species, as would be case with more endemic diseases on Java or Sumatra with the local species there. Do not mention the advancment of veterinary care in USA or Europe comparing to Indonesia (without offend).
One of the main health issues the Sumatran rhino ex-situ population in the US faced was hemocromatosis, with nutrition, among others, as a contributing factor. It's easier to provide this species with the adequate diet in its native habitat than someplace else, and provide adequate local veterinary care via international collaboration.
Cincinnati Zoo Devastated By Loss of Endangered Sumatran Rhino - The Cincinnati Zoo & Botanical Garden
Cincinnati Zoo Devastated By Loss of Endangered Sumatran Rhino - The Cincinnati Zoo & Botanical Garden
Those rhinos were held in a captive facility in Peninsular Malaysia.
Nikola Chavkosk
Well-Known Member
Thank you. Sometimes I don't have time to research enough or to check the validacy of information,. So we are here to corrects ourselves, to help each other.
Nikola Chavkosk
Well-Known Member
The iron storrage disease is a big problem also for black rhinoceros and many birds (particularly Ramphastidae) in captivity.
Because of that, the feed for rhinos must strictly cope to that what type of food they actualy will eat in wildernes, and maybe some periodical testing of iron content of feed is required (or even of soil where such food is grown), to prevent giving feed to rhinos high in iron.
Plus, browse has lower iron content than grass, alfalfa, corn and vegetables (and higher content of tannines wich binds iron), all of wich are given to animals who mostly are browsers. So they should be well cut of the diet of browsers.
Once again, you're just quoting textbook knowledge, Nikola. Be assured that the experienced veterinary team at Cincinnati Zoo also had access to said textbooks (and more), based their treatment on these as well as other suggestions, nevertheless lost specimens and in the end supported the decision to return the last specimen back to Indonesia. So much about that.
HorseChild
Active Member
The professionals at Cincinnati Zoo are well aware of this. Someone on a forum is not going to be the one sharing knowledge with them that they don't already know.
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Nikola Chavkosk
Well-Known Member
Yes, but some browsers are still and still fed also with grass/grass hay, alfalfa, corn-maize/pellets/soy, and a lot of vegetables (cabbage, lettuce, etc. - who are rich in iron), despite the known fact. I just wanted to potentiate that. Actually I have learned that from zoos, it's not mine finding
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Nikola Chavkosk
Well-Known Member
Content of iron in selected feed:
Corn-maize: 5.2 mg/kg
Cabbage (raw): 4.7 mg/kg
Spinach (raw): 27.1 mg/kg !!!!
Lettuce (raw): 12.4 mg/kg !!!
Romaine (raw): 9.7 mg/kg !!
Brocculi (raw): 7.3 mg/kg !!
Carrot (raw): 3.0 mg/kg (Wikipedia)
Grass & alfalfa (lucerne) (raw): 223.0 - 428.0 mg/kg !!!!!! (223-428 ppm)
Hay from grass and alfalfa: 220.0-400.0 mg/kg !!!!! (http://www.uwyo.edu/uwe/county/johnson/files/mineral-report.pdf )
Fig leaf (raw, summer sample): 4.1 mg/kg (Cu-copper, 70.0 mg/kg) ( http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/29/8/871.full.pdf )
And leaves of several tree species in Nigeria (Ficus & Spondia spp.) contain from 0.16 to 0.881 mg/kg (ppm) of iron!!! ( http://www.akamaiuniversity.us/PJST14_1_406.pdf )
LOOK AT THE DIFFERENCE OF IRON CONTENT BETWEEN GRASS AND LEAVES, GRASS CONTAIN FROM 100 TO 1000 TIMES HIGHER IRON CONTENT !!!
Corn-maize: 5.2 mg/kg
Cabbage (raw): 4.7 mg/kg
Spinach (raw): 27.1 mg/kg !!!!
Lettuce (raw): 12.4 mg/kg !!!
Romaine (raw): 9.7 mg/kg !!
Brocculi (raw): 7.3 mg/kg !!
Carrot (raw): 3.0 mg/kg (Wikipedia)
Grass & alfalfa (lucerne) (raw): 223.0 - 428.0 mg/kg !!!!!! (223-428 ppm)
Hay from grass and alfalfa: 220.0-400.0 mg/kg !!!!! (http://www.uwyo.edu/uwe/county/johnson/files/mineral-report.pdf )
Fig leaf (raw, summer sample): 4.1 mg/kg (Cu-copper, 70.0 mg/kg) ( http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/29/8/871.full.pdf )
And leaves of several tree species in Nigeria (Ficus & Spondia spp.) contain from 0.16 to 0.881 mg/kg (ppm) of iron!!! ( http://www.akamaiuniversity.us/PJST14_1_406.pdf )
LOOK AT THE DIFFERENCE OF IRON CONTENT BETWEEN GRASS AND LEAVES, GRASS CONTAIN FROM 100 TO 1000 TIMES HIGHER IRON CONTENT !!!
I don't understand how removing several rhinos will diminish value of the national park. Rather, publicity generated will improve the situation.
Wisent and Pere David Deer exist because Russian tzars and Chinese emperors sent live animals abroad as gifts. Later unforeseen circumstances wiped out in their native land, but they survived abroad and were reintroduced back to their homeland.
Unfortunately some other governments don't have this spirit of generosity and have more hoarding approach to their wildlife.
Being more or less closely related doesn’t automatically guarantee 100% equal husbandry demands. Now THAT would show inadequate understanding of biology, wouldn’t it?
Now, this only shows the attitude: better to cling to wrong practice without 100% knowledge of alternative. When you will never have complete knowledge, you will forever keep doing the wrong thing.
Keeping rhinos in the wild requires an endless string of successes: few good years mean nothing, because if rhinos are poached next year, they are gone forever. Past success is not a guide to future success. Clinging to optimistic "we can do" attitude in just one decade wiped out western black rhinos, northern white rhinos, Annamese javan rhinos and Bornean rhinos in the wild. Nevertheless, there are still people convinced that rhinos should only be kept in the wild.
Major difference of conservation breeding is that once knowledge of species husbandry exists, it is there forever. So once zoos once understood how to breed rhinos, they can do it indefinitely.
Nikola Chavkosk
Well-Known Member
What about introducing several Javan rhinos in the Northern tropical Australia, like bantengs are already there?
Like for example intorducing several breeding Javan rhinos and with regular exchange with the other rhinos from the population on Java, as part of Australian rhino project maybe? The species will be saved from extinction.
Like for example intorducing several breeding Javan rhinos and with regular exchange with the other rhinos from the population on Java, as part of Australian rhino project maybe? The species will be saved from extinction.
And what about the Australian native species that will become threatened due to damage done by the rhinos to the Australian habitat?
Besides, the Javans are doing OK by themselves, not thriving admittedly, but they're holding their own. To capture, anesthetise, and transport animals puts them at risk as the procedures are not without their dangers.
The Javan Rhino is in a precarious situation, but the population seems safe/stable at present. Any interference could jeopardise that.
Hix
Besides, the Javans are doing OK by themselves, not thriving admittedly, but they're holding their own. To capture, anesthetise, and transport animals puts them at risk as the procedures are not without their dangers.
The Javan Rhino is in a precarious situation, but the population seems safe/stable at present. Any interference could jeopardise that.
Hix
Nikola Chavkosk
Well-Known Member
And what about the Australian native species that will become threatened due to damage done by the rhinos to the Australian habitat?
Besides, the Javans are doing OK by themselves, not thriving admittedly, but they're holding their own. To capture, anesthetise, and transport animals puts them at risk as the procedures are not without their dangers.
The Javan Rhino is in a precarious situation, but the population seems safe/stable at present. Any interference could jeopardise that.
Hix
Such introduction of course will be after deep analysis or identification of hazards that Javan rhinos can cause to native animals, plants, in Northern tropical Australia; Also the question should be raised as to whether there are already introduced species like goats, bantengs, boars, etc.
On first look I can identify just one hazard that Javan rhinos can cause, and that is more intensive consumption of the native vegetation? What other hazards can be identified (and then analysed and eventually prevented)?
How you mean damage Hix, damage in respect to digging-steping/pressing on the ground, destroying forest floor microhabitat?
taun
Well-Known Member
Ain't going to happen, is the simple answer.
Not to dampen your enthusiasm for it, although you are unlikely to come up with an idea that will be implemented, one of your many ideas my just trigger something.
Firstly an ex situ population of Javan Rhinos will not happen until the existing population has increased enough for the risk of capture to be low enough, as you have pointed out you need 12-20 mammals to start a captive population. But you may need to capture 20-40 animals to get the right sex ratio and age range. And it is not like popping to a pet shop and asking for them, you have to set traps to capture the rhinos. These traps although do as safe as possible it doesn't not limit the risks to the rhinos from physical or mental stress, which could kill them.
There is a million hurdles to over come to get to an ex situ population stage but firstly we need to try and secure the current in-situ population and increases its number so that further efforts are not critical to the species survival.
P.s having re-read this thread don't spend 5mins on a animal you want to be taken seriously, spend 3/4 days improving it, getting others to check.
