CGSwans flies north for the winter

Are we headed for a regulated world where scientific criteria automatically trumps experience,history and the romance simply of "being"?And if we are to apply strict scientific criteria then there are many so-called arguments that can quickly be used against the captive process - its thin ice that can be interpreted both ways

Does it not bother you to think this? That if we apply science to animal captivity we would conclude that it cannot be done ethically (apologies if I'm misinterpreting you)? Or is this another version of "Any criticism of zoos contributes to an existential threat to them"?

I think that experience is simply a form of scientific evidence. History as an excuse for unacceptable enclosures doesn't cut it for me, although I'll happily accept it as a reason for acceptable over exceptional. And the 'romance of being' isn't all that romantic if it's being bad, especially if that 'bad' has been objectively measured.

Berlin`s Swine House certainly doesnt represent the apogee of animal keeping today,but that doesnt mean it shouldnt be there,that its not good enough,or does not have enormous qualities worth preserving

In fairness CGSwans wasn't arguing this, just that the interior shouldn't be on show.
 
Im not saying that science shouldnt come into it,far from it,the absence of it from the zoo community on many,many occasions has been regretful.But,believe me if opinion is based on it all the time(and weve gone away ,far away, from the notion that Hamburg is a "bad" zoo..which i suppose must ,by the nature of this thread then be supported by empirical evidence[and im not being sarcastic]) then you will end up with as much pro as con half the time.And where does it all end up? I suppose any enclosure that isnt the size of a taxon`s natural range...glad i wont be around to see it!
 
Does it not bother you to think this? That if we apply science to animal captivity we would conclude that it cannot be done ethically (apologies if I'm misinterpreting you)? Or is this another version of "Any criticism of zoos contributes to an existential threat to them"?

I think that experience is simply a form of scientific evidence. History as an excuse for unacceptable enclosures doesn't cut it for me, although I'll happily accept it as a reason for acceptable over exceptional. And the 'romance of being' isn't all that romantic if it's being bad, especially if that 'bad' has been objectively measured.



In fairness CGSwans wasn't arguing this, just that the interior shouldn't be on show.

I don't want to put words into the mouth of @Tim Brown, and I certainly don't want to sound like Michael "we've all had enough of experts" Gove, but I think the point is that "science" can "prove" a great deal of things, but that the way in which evidence is interpreted is not fixed, that absolute truths are then on the ground. This being so, there is a place for something that relies on a gut-feeling, on experience, on something that isn't, possibly, "proveable".

Many years ago, in my Geography O Level classes (yes, I'm that old) I was taught about the building of the Akosombo dam in Ghana. It was, I was told, a marvellous thing, and those who expressed concerns about it, and its environmental impact, were held up as nutters and loons, luddites who wished to hold back the development of Ghana. The scientists, economists and agriculturalists who could prove that the dam was a Good Thing were lauded. Many years on, I think a more nuanced view would need to be expressed: "progress" has occurred, but there have been enormous problems too. Those who believed, without question, what "science" told them (or what they were told science should tell them) were, perhaps, a little precipitous.

I think the same is true in this discussion. At risk of sounding a little bit too much like the late C H Keeling, we would be very ill-advised to reject the lessons of the past simply because research indicates an alternative "truth". So, I, for one, will continue to enjoy both the Berlin Swine House, and Hagenbeck's polar bear exhibit*, while also thoroughly enjoying (and respecting) the views of those who, while supportive of zoos in general, do not share my opinion on these two exhibits.

(* I do agree that it might be bit larger, however....)
 
my point is that Berlin and Hamburg have contributed a great deal to the world of zoos..and i deeply respect that.

Times change ,i recognise that fact..and Berlin`s Swine House certainly doesnt represent the apogee of animal keeping today,but that doesnt mean it shouldnt be there,that its not good enough,or does not have enormous qualities worth preserving(on the other hand if someone doesnt like the way it looks then who is anyone to argue?)

I also have a lot of respect for what they contributed and zoos would not be the same without Hagenbeck's revolutionary ideas which are still alive and kicking. But we cannot ignore that what once was revolutionary does not necessary remain revolutionary into eternity. Other zoos have used Hagenbeck's concepts and made significant improvements to them.

If we apply your reasoning to aviation for example, you would be arguing that there is nothing wrong with using the plane from the Wright brothers in todays aviation....

The Swine house has a lot of reason to be, but is in it's current state far from optimal for keeping 3 pig and 2 peccary species. Unless changes are made to improve the well-being of the inhabitants which might involve reducing stock and giving more enrichment and finding a way to give them more natural substrate, it is in husbandry terms far from optimal. That does not mean it does not have any historical meaning, a lot of the buildings in that section of the Berlin Zoo have a lot of historical meaning and are well worth preserving.

I don't think anyone would criticize Hagenbeck for it's historical importance, but to quote Stephen King; "the world has moved on". As a modern zoo Hagenbeck is just a tad disappointing and it could learn from zoos that use the past to their advantage by integrating historical significance with modern zoo standards, something with which Hamburg has apparently failed in the eyes of many here (and other zoo forums). The prime example for this is off course Schoenbrun in Vienna, but also Paris' Menagerie and Artis Amsterdam are showing how historical zoos can be made great again. That said this is something that Hagenbeck has done with a certain success in the Eismeer, but failed in with the polar bear enclosure....

Yours sincerely,
Theo
 
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Im not saying that science shouldnt come into it,far from it,the absence of it from the zoo community on many,many occasions has been regretful.But,believe me if opinion is based on it all the time(and weve gone away ,far away, from the notion that Hamburg is a "bad" zoo..which i suppose must ,by the nature of this thread then be supported by empirical evidence[and im not being sarcastic]) then you will end up with as much pro as con half the time.And where does it all end up? I suppose any enclosure that isnt the size of a taxon`s natural range...glad i wont be around to see it!

Is this really how you think science works? For what it's worth, keeper ratings have been validated as a welfare indicator for numerous taxa (experience) and some of the research on polar bear exhibit size used past records (history). A scientific approach doesn't negate those lines of evidence; it includes and tests them. I'm at a genuine loss for where you think romance should come into it. Or how that's more objective than empiricism? Nonetheless, since your ignorance is apparently blissful and unwavering, agree to disagree indeed.

I think the same is true in this discussion. At risk of sounding a little bit too much like the late C H Keeling, we would be very ill-advised to reject the lessons of the past simply because research indicates an alternative "truth". So, I, for one, will continue to enjoy both the Berlin Swine House, and Hagenbeck's polar bear exhibit*, while also thoroughly enjoying (and respecting) the views of those who, while supportive of zoos in general, do not share my opinion on these two exhibits.

(* I do agree that it might be bit larger, however....)

I don't understand what these "lessons from the past" are. Hamburg's polar bear exhibit is only a few years old and pigs breed in some downright appalling conditions. Anyone can take an example where scientists have been wrong and apply a hasty generalisation. However, this is doubly true for "the way it's always been done". As I said above, both history and experience can be tested in a scientifically rigorous fashion and I think this represents the best of all worlds.
 
As i said i like the fact that Hamburg ,in essence,said "this is the way we do it",with the implication that Polar Bears do not,in their opinion, have to be in a 100 hectare field.If others want to do it that way then fine,but looking at zoo animals through binoculars is not for me ..or indeed most of the visitors.The renaissance of Hagenbecks in recent times(though much is to do with the Tropicarium) proves that millions of people think the zoo is very decent indeed.Popularity is not always an arbiter of quality ,granted,but it does pay the bills.As for the Swine House at Berlin,i like it a great deal.im glad its still there and i trust to the management of the zoo to look after its animals, also i would love to see the Wright Brothers aeroplane in working order.....theres a place for it alongside an Airbus in the panoply of aircraft im sure(but it doesnt mean that all aeroplanes should be like it!).Glad to know you are Theo incidentally...so much nicer than Lintworm!
 
I don't understand what these "lessons from the past" are. Hamburg's polar bear exhibit is only a few years old and pigs breed in some downright appalling conditions. Anyone can take an example where scientists have been wrong and apply a hasty generalisation. However, this is doubly true for "the way it's always been done". As I said above, both history and experience can be tested in a scientifically rigorous fashion and I think this represents the best of all worlds.

Briefly - because this thread is about the travels of @CGSwans, and it Is in danger of being derailed by broader discussion (although I am sure that he would agree that, in inspiring such discussion, his postings have done a very good job) - my position is to be slightly cynical about what I am told by "experts" (although, as mentioned previously, I quake at the thought that this allies me to that cretinous fool Gove*), or, at least, to be slightly cynical about the uses that can be made of the findings of "experts". I write this as someone who spends much of his professional life finding inventive ways to use expert evidence, or scientifically rigorous evidence, to point in the direction I want it to point....

* for those outside the UK, Michael Gove is a right wing politician who played a leading role in the Brexit vote, and was previously the Education Secretary, famous for not listening to the advice of Those Who Knew More Than Him. This cartoon sums him up, really: 'Let me do it, David': the Stephen Collins cartoon.
 
This thread was already a contender for one of the recent best on ZooChat, as having someone review more than 40 famous European zoos has caused me to salivate at the future prospect of seeing myself do something similar...although on a much smaller scale due to such things as having a wife and 4 kids. :) The discussion on the merits of Berlin Zoo have been apt, as in my mailbox today was a new hardcover publication (by Gary Bruce) called Through the Lion Gate: A History of the Berlin Zoo. Glancing through the book in front of me, I feel compelled to make a few observations:

- The book certainly appears to be well-researched, befitting a Professor of History at the University of Waterloo. There are at least 40 pages of Notes, plus the Bibliography stretches for a good dozen pages.

- The text consists of 236 pages, including approximately 30 black-and-white photos. Is that lengthy enough to do justice to such a famous zoological institution?

- The longest chapter, by far, is named "The Human Zoo" and analyzes what is surely the darkest period of Berlin Zoo's illustrious history...with humans as exhibits. This single chapter is essentially a quarter of the entire book!

- Another of the 7 chapters is "The Nazi Ox: The Zoo and Hitler's Worldview", which will surely feature a lot of information about Heck and Aurochs.

Alright, I'm off to read!
 
Well that stirred up a hornets nest didnt it? Then again i almost knew it would...hence my statement that we would have to agree to disagree.Of course everyone here is entitled to their opinion,and for ME Its difficult to have any discussion, let alone an argument, with anonymous people( as is the nature of the internet sadly....how many people criticizing [or stronger] Hamerton for instance, via social media, had the decency ,or courage,to say who they are/were?...not too many).
BUT...my point is that Berlin and Hamburg have contributed a great deal to the world of zoos..and i deeply respect that.Times change ,i recognise that fact..and Berlin`s Swine House certainly doesnt represent the apogee of animal keeping today,but that doesnt mean it shouldnt be there,that its not good enough,or does not have enormous qualities worth preserving(on the other hand if someone doesnt like the way it looks then who is anyone to argue?). Are we headed for a regulated world where scientific criteria automatically trumps experience,history and the romance simply of "being"?And if we are to apply strict scientific criteria then there are many so-called arguments that can quickly be used against the captive process - its thin ice that can be interpreted both ways,in which case many zoos and aquariums could exit stage left fairly promptly quite honestly.As i said re.CG ..Hamburg,a "bad zoo" - well zoochat is indeed a broad church of opinion! Finally however,i would like to say that this has also been a very interesting thread that would have been far less so without contentious viewpoints.

Oh...and by the way CG ,the point i made about the Twycross gibbon islands wasnt actually made with reference to your viewpoints..it was made to illustrate how popular perceptions influence zoos for worse sometimes,even without zoos necessarily realizing it.Thats why i appreciate Hagenbecks building an Arctic Panorama that in effect says "we know best".

Cheers Tim. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

One theme Inhave identified that has come from what is now by far the longest and most extensive run of zoo visits I've ever made is how much of an influence expectations have on my perception of a place. Valencia, Beauval, Basel, Budapest and now Hagenbeck are all places where my expectations exceeded reality, and so my posts for those places range from downcast (Beauval) to dismissive (Valencia), even when two of them (Beauval and Basel) are objectively very good zoos.

On the other hand, I've responded really well to some places that are, objectively speaking, far from top tier collections. Bucharest and Zagreb are two examples, and Antwerp and Hanover are both mid-tier zoos that I responded to very well indeed, despite being almost diametric opposites (and I confess Hanover likely caught me on a good day). I probably seem a bit capricious, and will do even more so when I get around to writing up my last two zoos (only after I catch up on my blog, alas).

I didn't think Hamburg was a very good zoo. Is it 'bad'? Maybe I shouldn't have used that word, which was part of a sentence that juxtaposed three experiences as 'bad', 'good' and 'great' for literary effect. It's not a bad zoo in the way that Leningrad is a bad zoo, where I question I found they shouldn't just shut it down altogether.

But whilst there is a lot at Hagenbeck that's decent, and one or two things that are wonderful, I also had some significant problems with it. The polar bear exhibit and the entire dynamic surrounding the elephant herd being the biggest of those. I don't doubt the keepers at Hamburg care deeply about their charges, and know them very well. I *do* doubt that the keepers were the ones who designed that glorified bear pit, though. And the elephants looked like multiple disasters waiting to happen to me too, keeper dedication notwithstanding.

Hamburg is, as you say, enormously historically significant. It essentially founded 20th century zoo design. But we're now almost a fifth of the way into the 21st century, and with the exception of the generally wonderful aquatic exhibits Hamburg isn't keeping up.
 
Well thats good ..I did say at the very beginning that we are all on the same side,and sometimes we just have to beg to differ.I spend my life considering where zoos are going,where they have been by comparison with that,and probably,most of all(to be quite honest) what i find exciting about them(which ,as you can possibly tell,is not always the accepted"wisdom" a la BIAZA/ EAZA and others ).And i do recognise that im a prisoner of my generation to be honest.....the old UK zoo eccentric CH Keeling(now dead for some 10 years) once told me that he literally loved beastwagons.I was horrified and quite rightly so i think, but then i love dioramas and not immersion,old animal houses that have been brought up to current standards,collection diversity in terms of taxa and the general science(in broad terms) of keeping animals in captivity.I sometimes wonder if im not another Keeling, only some years down the line(and not quite as strange...he didnt approve of men wearing suede shoes for instance - it being a signpost towards homosexuality in his eyes -and thats only the tip of his particular iceberg!).But less of my musings..its been a very good thread,well-written and controversial.Entertaining in other words.
On the subject of SL`s receipt of "Through the Lion Gate" im very envious, because alongside Old Trafford Manchester and my own home, Berlin Zoo is my favourite spot on the planet.The three great zoos of all time are,in my opinion and for a variety of reasons,San Diego,the Bronx and Berlin...obviously there is no shortage of english-language books on two of those(or London ,which is an honourable 4th in historical terms) . When i checked on UK Amazon about the Berlin book ,it was stated to be an October release(though its on the dreaded Kindle right now).Funnily enough i did contemplate writing a history of the Berlin zoos myself,but ive other fish to fry before i ever did that one...and not all about zoos either.
Finally,CG, a zoo director friend who visited the Melbourne Zoo recently surprised me (i dont really know why) by saying he thought it was one of the best he had ever seen.My one and only trip to Australia didnt include anywhere below Sydney so i have that one still to do..when i do we will have to have a beer..... and you will find out that im only slightly strange!
 
Well thats good ..I did say at the very beginning that we are all on the same side,and sometimes we just have to beg to differ.I spend my life considering where zoos are going,where they have been by comparison with that,and probably,most of all(to be quite honest) what i find exciting about them(which ,as you can possibly tell,is not always the accepted"wisdom" a la BIAZA/ EAZA and others ).And i do recognise that im a prisoner of my generation to be honest.....the old UK zoo eccentric CH Keeling(now dead for some 10 years) once told me that he literally loved beastwagons.I was horrified and quite rightly so i think, but then i love dioramas and not immersion,old animal houses that have been brought up to current standards,collection diversity in terms of taxa and the general science(in broad terms) of keeping animals in captivity.I sometimes wonder if im not another Keeling, only some years down the line(and not quite as strange...he didnt approve of men wearing suede shoes for instance - it being a signpost towards homosexuality in his eyes -and thats only the tip of his particular iceberg!).But less of my musings..its been a very good thread,well-written and controversial.Entertaining in other words.
On the subject of SL`s receipt of "Through the Lion Gate" im very envious, because alongside Old Trafford Manchester and my own home, Berlin Zoo is my favourite spot on the planet.The three great zoos of all time are,in my opinion and for a variety of reasons,San Diego,the Bronx and Berlin...obviously there is no shortage of english-language books on two of those(or London ,which is an honourable 4th in historical terms) . When i checked on UK Amazon about the Berlin book ,it was stated to be an October release(though its on the dreaded Kindle right now).Funnily enough i did contemplate writing a history of the Berlin zoos myself,but ive other fish to fry before i ever did that one...and not all about zoos either.
Finally,CG, a zoo director friend who visited the Melbourne Zoo recently surprised me (i dont really know why) by saying he thought it was one of the best he had ever seen.My one and only trip to Australia didnt include anywhere below Sydney so i have that one still to do..when i do we will have to have a beer..... and you will find out that im only slightly strange!
Isn't it time someone wrote a biography of Clinton Keeling? Obviously a flawed individual (like the rest of us) , but a real animal enthusiast, who did a lot to oil the wheels of animal husbandry and the zoo world.
 
Yes he was..i dont mean to undermine someone im very glad to have come across in my life.A biography would certainly be entertaining even worthwhile,but dare anyone speak the truth? (im thinking here of his sons book).
By the way the Berlin Zoo book (see above ) is on American Amazon right now..it only cost a fiver more to have it posted from there.Much as i instinctively retract from corporatism,ive got to say they make it easy,easy,easy.
 
On the subject of Keeling biographies there are three books to consult, one a self-published booked about the Ashover Zoological Garden, one written by his first wife that is called (I think) Ask of the Animals, the third is by his son Jeremy Keeling which has a chapter or two about his father.
 
Well i AM undermining Keeling arent i ? And in some ways,as you can tell, he deserves it. I certainly never met anyone quite like him - and in both my professional life and zoo life ive met some highly unusual people.
 
Jill Keelings book is "Ask of the Beasts".For sure Clinton ended up not having anything positive to say about her at all - in fact he referred to himself as a "battered husband" whilst he was with her.
 
Finally,CG, a zoo director friend who visited the Melbourne Zoo recently surprised me (i dont really know why) by saying he thought it was one of the best he had ever seen.My one and only trip to Australia didnt include anywhere below Sydney so i have that one still to do..when i do we will have to have a beer..... and you will find out that im only slightly strange!

Wait, what? There's a Melbourne in Florida as well, perhaps he went there and you got your wires crossed?

I live a life full of resentment towards Melbourne Zoo. I am looking in the rear view mirror, of course, at a zoo I knew as a child. But I genuinely believe the Melbourne Zoo of the mid-1990s was on a track that could have placed it comfortably in the world's top ten zoos. It had been modernising steadily since the mid-1960s (the lion park) and had only a couple of seriously problematic exhibits left (most notably the elephants).

The reptile house and the great flight aviary stil survive and sit comfortably with the best in their classes that I've seen. But the gorilla rainforest has been severely degraded, and the treetop apes and monkeys are suffering death by a thousand cuts. They are the last significant elements left from that zoo I loved so much, apart from the butterfly house (which I've always been indifferent towards).

With the (partial) exception of the orangutan exhibit pretty much everything since 2000 has been botched to a greater or lesser degree. And worse, the zoo has consciously run its collection into the ground. Australian zoos will never - can never - be as diverse as their European or North American brethren. But they had a choice about how they would confront the challenge, and the decision appears to have been to see how few exotic animals they can get away with displaying and still have people come through the gates.

I just did some quick counting in my head and I think there's 12 species of primate that would be 'ongoing' parts of the plan, ten species of carnivore (including the native fur seals), the elephants, five species of ungulates (two of which likely won't be replaced when the current ones die) and maybe two rodents. But, I hear you ask, what about the natives? There's only the stock standard kangaroos, koalas, wallabies, Tassie devils, tree kangaroos, wombats, echidnas and platypus. Maybe a bilby too. They won't want to go into more depth than that because they want tourists to go to Healesville instead. Birds? There's now the Great Flight Aviary and about five small habitat or species-specific aviaries.

I think the new precinct 'Predator something or other' will be open when I get home. It won't have any new species, and indeed a zone that relatively recently held brown bears, a tiger, snow leopards, a Persian leopard, a jaguar and maned wolves (and further back in time, also cheetahs) will hold tigers and snow leopards. I'm not all that excited to see what they've done. None of those previous exhibits were even close to being sub-par by European standards, by the way. The leopard deserved more space, but they always do. The rest were fine.

It's typical of their approach. They knocked down the decrepit baboon exhibit, as well as a few other bits and pieces. They went from displaying at one point four species of callitrichids to I think just one, and in return we got a new baboon enclosure (decent, I'll concede) and 'Growing Wild', a wasteland of meerkat exhibits (to go with the two we already had), a giant tortoise yard (to go with the one we already had), a mara and quokka walkthrough that, as of my last visit, had neither quokkas or mara in it and a bush turkey aviary. It's a pretty bloody expensive turkey, in both senses of the word.

The Victorian Government's policy of providing free entry for children a few years ago was a disaster. The incentive for the zoo to pursue parents with young children as their only real target market was set in stone that day. The zoo started to be dumbed down. They no longer strive for anything approaching cutting edge exhibit design, and they seem happy to spend millions of dollars and have the final product still cut corners for no discernible reason. The penguin pool in the Wild Seas thing - you'd hate it, it's SeaWorld outside and a bloody IMAX theatre inside - has bare concrete walls with a square hole cut in it. This complex cost $20m. Spend an extra couple of thousand bucks and texture that surface a little. It's hard for me to describe but if/when you see it you'll understand. It's like they *want* everything to look amateurish.

We went, I think, from being an ultra-progressive European zoo in my childhood to being a medium-sized US zoo. We don't compare ourselves with Vienna anymore, but with, say, Atlanta. And if you haven't already figured it out, that really pisses me off. :D
 
[focusing on] parents with young children as their only real target market was set in stone that day. The zoo started to be dumbed down.
That's a trend you can not only see in zoos (Hannover Zoo, laudated in this thread, is actually a good example), but also in other facilities, such as museums. And it's "somehow" contradictory to the self-proclaimed role of said facilities as institutions of public education. In particular in times where a solid educative counterweight to increasingly lowbrow social media and public entertainment would be of merit. Children per se are usually not dumb; but how can they get smarter when you deliberately lower the bar? Therefore, I can understand your frustration with such a development, both as a zoo afficionado and a father.
 
That's a trend you can not only see in zoos (Hannover Zoo, laudated in this thread, is actually a good example), but also in other facilities, such as museums. And it's "somehow" contradictory to the self-proclaimed role of said facilities as institutions of public education. In particular in times where a solid educative counterweight to increasingly lowbrow social media and public entertainment would be of merit. Children per se are usually not dumb; but how can they get smarter when you deliberately lower the bar? Therefore, I can understand your frustration with such a development, both as a zoo afficionado and a father.

Indeed. When I wrote that I enjoyed Hanover I said I wouldn't want many zoos to try to 'be' Hanover. I don't want a Hanover as my local zoo.

Sooty - Hancocks was at Werribee, not Melbourne. Late 1990s I believe. The Pula trail dates to around that time, at least conceptually, but has quite a bit of Hanoverian frosting to it that I doubt he would have favoured,
 
I don't want a Hanover as my local zoo.
And that's the crux of the matter; neither do I and most zoo fans. If I had to choose between Hamburg and Hanover as my local zoo, I'd choose the Arizona Desert Museum. ;) But I'd rather go to Hagenbeck, and not just because of its venomous critters.
 
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