Werribee Open Range Zoo Changes at Weribee Zoo! (lions)

boof said:
I would have no problem with it. Monty's argument makes sense.
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I also agree. The focus here should be educating the public about the items brought up by monty. I particularly agree that zoos have had a significant impact on the gender ratio. Educating the public could prevent the average reasonable aussie from protesting and then you'll be left with only the the greenies to annoy. and who listens to them anyway.

The history of the lions in Cairns was a bit sketchy a few years back so I don't know how they'd go joining the rest of the regional population.
 
the issue of euthanasia as a population management tool only arises because australian zoos continually ignore the issue of lack of space.

if they rectified this problem - then the need to cull surplus stock would be greatly reduced. whilst lions represent a trickier scenario - most of the time the issue of diminished mortality rates among males in zoos can be rectified by keeping bachelor groups.

but since zoos are so preoccupied with outdoing each other in the costly "mock-rock" wars - things arn't getting much better.
 
monty is comparing wild to captive.. zoos are not trying to breed the lions to release. They are trying to breed to build up numbers. Culling males would go against this...
 
m575 said:
monty is comparing wild to captive.. zoos are not trying to breed the lions to release. They are trying to breed to build up numbers. Culling males would go against this...
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The problem is the number of males can't be controlled. If they won't consider culling then the only option is DON'T BREED! Zoos should not be breeding animals unless they know they have a home for all potential offspring in the future.
 
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m575 said:
monty is comparing wild to captive.. zoos are not trying to breed the lions to release. They are trying to breed to build up numbers..
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actually, they are not ALWAYS about trying to build up numbers at all. often its simply about trying to maintain a species long-term with a limited number of individuals.
 
The problem is the number of males can't be controlled. If they won't condifer culling then the only option is DON'T BREED! Zoos should not be breeding animals unless they know they have a home for all potential offspring in the future.---

Wow.. maybe you should reread.. the whole reason they COULDN'T breed was lack of space.. now they can breed because they can support the extra males..

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actually, they are not ALWAYS about trying to build up numbers at all. often its simply about trying to maintain a species long-term with a limited number of individuals.----

True, but often they go hand in hand.
 
Jarkari said:
I also agree. The focus here should be educating the public about the items brought up by monty. I particularly agree that zoos have had a significant impact on the gender ratio. Educating the public could prevent the average reasonable aussie from protesting and then you'll be left with only the the greenies to annoy. and who listens to them anyway.

The history of the lions in Cairns was a bit sketchy a few years back so I don't know how they'd go joining the rest of the regional population.
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i think you have an unreasonable expectation of the idea of education.
 
m575 said:
monty is comparing wild to captive.. zoos are not trying to breed the lions to release. They are trying to breed to build up numbers. Culling males would go against this...
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There has never been a zoo or hand raised lion successfully released.
The famous ones which were released are Elsa and her cubs, but they were not successful. Elsa was shot after killing and eating a guard meant to protect her. One of her cubs was shot after killing a child and another was shot after it became a cattle killer. The other disappeared and was probably shot attacking cattle but not reported. The recent one "the Harrods lion" also disappeared after a year.

There is a program in Zim at the moment where they are teaching captive lions to hunt, with the plan being keeping them in a several thousand acre enclosure, where they live naturally and then release their cubs as they will not be humanised.

Australian Lions will never be released as they are a mixture of bloodlines. Here they are for education and entertainment, as they are a good crowd puller, which through gate takings increases the earning power of zoos, keeping them viable.

My point is that more breeding will help keep the Australian population viable. Keeping large numbers of males which will probably never get the chance to breed is a waste of resources and an expense zoos could do without. Small zoos such as Mansfield which house 2 males are a better option as they gain crowds and gate takings due to the Lions and make it necessary to kill excess, but these places are not always available. In the long term it may pay for the larger zoos breeding Lions to help small places such as Mansfield pay for their enclosure, as this will take excess males off their hands and free up their resources.

Mansfield's Lions are also 12 so in a couple more years the will be after a couple more.

Killing any excess should not be the first option but there is no reason it should not be an option when necessary.
 
m575 said:
The problem is the number of males can't be controlled. If they won't condifer culling then the only option is DON'T BREED! Zoos should not be breeding animals unless they know they have a home for all potential offspring in the future.---

Wow.. maybe you should reread.. the whole reason they COULDN'T breed was lack of space.. now they can breed because they can support the extra males..

---

actually, they are not ALWAYS about trying to build up numbers at all. often its simply about trying to maintain a species long-term with a limited number of individuals.----

True, but often they go hand in hand.
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I'm sorry but i don't understand your statement. My point was that if they are having trouble accommodating the lions we already have why would you breed to create even more numbers. And males are harder to place then females.
 
jay said:
i think you have an unreasonable expectation of the idea of education.
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Zoos role in the conservation of exotics species is education more so than anything else, you can say we breed and breed to continue the survival of the species but education is more important. If people do not know about something they will not be interested in conserving them. My point was that if the public is made aware of the fact that a large percentage of male cubs often die in the wild then the impact of a couple of male cubs disappearing would be softened. not eliminated but softened. I think you would be surprised about the impact education has on the general public.
 
Monty I know what you're saying.. and what I'm saying is that they aren't being released.. so there is no need to kill them.. sure it happens in the wild, but there is no need to mimic THAT in captivity.

Jarkari.. WORZ wanted to breed but they didn't have any room to accommodate for new male cubs. They do now. So.. they DIDN'T breed when they couldn't, but now they can..

and sure educating about it could help, but again, why would we kill the male cubs? In the wild it happens for a reason.. in captivity it would be happening when it could be prevented by not breeding until you have people willing to take the cubs down the track.
 
to get back to topic -

how is it that WORZ now has space for male lions but didn't before?

the female group has suddenly dropped from 3 to 1 but that doesn't mean the zoo is in a different position.

they could technically accommodate male cubs - if they choose to keep males (be it the breeding males or their offspring) with their females permanently from now on and use contraceptives or castration to stop any further breeding - but they could have done this all along.

i don't see how the loss of a couple of elderly females has changed much at all.
 
There is more space. Previously if they had female cubs, it would've been easier to get rid of them / accommodate them. But males would've been an issue.. specifically finding someone who wanted them. Now they have less lions all together, meaning if new males are born, it'll be ok... Don't shoot the messenger :)
 
m575 said:
There is more space. Previously if they had female cubs, it would've been easier to get rid of them / accommodate them. But males would've been an issue.. specifically finding someone who wanted them. Now they have less lions all together, meaning if new males are born, it'll be ok... Don't shoot the messenger :)
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But what happens when those males reach sexual maturity? Then where will they go. They still do not have the facilities to accommodate males!
 
The total amount of lions at werribee has gone down. Thus, they can accomodate more lions all together. Previously, without freeing up space, from memory, they COULD hold more girls, but no more boys. Now, by freeing up space, they can hold either. Also, if you take a look at the back of the enclosure, you can see that if needed it's quite easy to expand.
 
Here is an alternative use for excess male lions. We can use them to remove stupid people from the gene pool.

This is a good demo of why going in with lions is not a good idea. If it had actually attacked and not been playing he would not have got off so lightly.

I was mauled by a lion: travel writer attacked
 
m575 said:
There is more space. Previously if they had female cubs, it would've been easier to get rid of them / accommodate them. But males would've been an issue.. specifically finding someone who wanted them. Now they have less lions all together, meaning if new males are born, it'll be ok... Don't shoot the messenger :)
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not shooting anyone m575, simply explaining that the theory doesn't make much sense. just becuse two female lions have died, it doesn't actually mean that there is more room for males - that is unless they chose to manage their lions differently (by housing some males with the female group). and as i said, this could have been done all along. there is no reason why werribee could have not bred its lions years ago - and kept either the male (and female) cubs with the females (and used a form of contraception) or moved the male cubs to the second exhibit and kept the breeding males with the female pride (and again used some form of contraception).

so although there are two less females, it should make little difference to the overall scenario.
 
its a game of chance. They have more room overall, and in the event that more males are born, they are fine. I'm sorry that I can't explain it any better than that, I haven't spoken to the keepers so I don't know how / why etc, but I know that it just is.

On a side note (seems my post dissapeared / didn't post!) Very very very few animals at WORZ are handled by people ;) And lions are a no touch zone. The only time is when they are out of it :P
 
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