Chessington Zoo Chessington Zoo News 2012

This is my attempt at breaking down the gorilla groups at Chessington now - please correct any errors!!

Group 1:
Kumba (M, retired)
Baffia (F, retired)
Kuni (M, Kumba x Shani)
Kumili (F, Kumba x Asili) (also breeding age - contracepted)

Group 2:
Damisi (M, breeding male)
Shani (F, breeding female)
Shanga (F, Shani x Kumba, Breeding female)
Unnamed newborn, born 07.12 ?date ?sex (Shanga x Damisi)
Asili (F, breeding female)
Mwana (M, born 23.2.12 Asili x Damisi)
Buu (F, Shani x Kumba, breeding female)
Mbula (M, born 2009, Buu x Damisi)

Is the above correct? Who is Shanga's father? if it is Kumba, that would make Kumili and her sisters, no? Should Kumili not be introduced to the main bredding group?
 
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leiclad20 said:
Baffia (F, retired +/- infertile)


Who is Shanga's father? if it is Kumba, that would make Kumili and her sisters, no? Should Kumili not be introduced to the main bredding group?
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1. Baffia is not infertile. As a young animal she had to live with Kumba in that awful tiny enclosure where she couldn't get way from him. She developed a phobia of males and would not allow mating. Later the Jersey-born male(also called Kumba) was the silverback in the group and he once trapped Baffia and mated her, from which she had a miscarriage, but she has never bred again- its her behaviour that's always been the problem.

2. Shangha is the middle one of three full sisters- Buu, Shangha, Kumili, all Kumba x Shani. So Kumili is almost certainly being contracepted to prevent any breeding with her father Kumba. She really needs to be in the main group I think.
 
Pertinax said:
1. Baffia is not infertile. As a young animal she had to live with Kumba in that awful tiny enclosure where she couldn't get way from him. She developed a phobia of males and would not allow mating. Later the Jersey-born male(also called Kumba) was the silverback in the group and he once trapped Baffia and mated her, from which she had a miscarriage, but she has never bred again- its her behaviour that's always been the problem.

2. Shangha is the middle one of three full sisters- Buu, Shangha, Kumili, all Kumba x Shani. So Kumili is almost certainly being contracepted to prevent any breeding with her father Kumba. She really needs to be in the main group I think.
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Thanks pertinax I did not realise Baffia had previously carried. Sounds liek shes had a bit of a crap captive life really, poor animal.

Ill amend the original list to show Buu and Shanga's heritage, and I agree Kumili needs to be with her sisters, mother (and nephews). Gorillas live in multi-generation groups in the wild so it would only be natural for this set up to be expanded. If this happened there would be 9 gorillas in group 2 now - quite an acheivement for chessington really, especially when you look at London and Twycross. Now they only need a bigger enclosure......
 
leiclad20 said:
I did not realise Baffia had previously carried. Sounds liek shes had a bit of a crap captive life really, poor animal.

Gorillas live in multi-generation groups in the wild so it would only be natural for this set up to be expanded. If this happened there would be 9 gorillas in group 2 now - quite an acheivement for chessington really, especially when you look at London and Twycross. Now they only need a bigger enclosure......
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I think Baffia's early years were far from ideal but things improved as the group got bigger though she's always been the 'outsider' with no family ties to the rest of the group. The irony was I believe she only ever mated that once and became pregnant from that. They also swapped her for a year or so with a female from Edinburgh but that didn't help either. But in her old age I think she and Kumba(whom she came with to Chessington as very small babies) are a very settled 'retiree' couple.

Apart from Howletts' groups, Chessington's represents the best family group in the UK with three generations and all the adult females are closely related- which is very natural. I just wish they could have one group with unrestricted breeding and a bigger and less tired-looking enclosure. I think the first will happen when old Kumba dies, but I can't see another enclosure on the cards as they built a 2nd one only recently- still its enough room if one group was able to access the whole area.
 
Pertinax said:
I think Baffia's early years were far from ideal but things improved as the group got bigger though she's always been the 'outsider' with no family ties to the rest of the group. The irony was I believe she only ever mated that once and became pregnant from that. They also swapped her for a year or so with a female from Edinburgh but that didn't help either. But in her old age I think she and Kumba(whom she came with to Chessington as very small babies) are a very settled 'retiree' couple.

Apart from Howletts' groups, Chessington's represents the best family group in the UK with three generations and all the adult females are closely related- which is very natural. I just wish they could have one group with unrestricted breeding and a bigger and less tired-looking enclosure. I think the first will happen when old Kumba dies, but I can't see another enclosure on the cards as they built a 2nd one only recently- still its enough room if one group was able to access the whole area.
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The trouble, I think, would be rehousing any surplus males that are born [a task that I believe isn't easy as it is]. If they had all females of the group pregnant and birthing at around the same time, and you got 3-4 males born, what would you do with them if when they reached a certain age, you didn't have the money for bachelor pad and no other zoos would take them? Euthenasia? I think the backlash over red river hogs was over-reaction enough, imagine it over a cute baby 'ABC' gorilla baby or two?

If they had to euthenise and it got out, then people would be criticising them having no controls in place.
 
Whether its the financial depression, planning issues, pressure from the keeping staff, or a rare wisdom that caused the about-turn in Chessington's gorilla housing, I for one breathed a sigh of relief. When Kumba passes away (in his own sweet time, I hope he's around for some years yet), I look forward to the groups being combined as well as the outdoor space, mainly because it will give Chessington even less reason to go for a disneyfied rockwork and grass monstrosity to replace the existing structure. I LOVE that Chessington has had the kind of success other zoos can only dream of having chosen to emulate the Howletts complex. I'm not getting into the pros and cons, that argument has been well worn elswhere, but I'm just expressing that I could spend three or four hours watching Damisi's group at Chessington, but I couldn't do the same at Belfast, Twycross, London etc.

When the time comes, I really think the remaining group will make full use of the entire complex and they will be wonderful to watch.
 
Javan Rhino said:
If they had to euthenise and it got out, then people would be criticising them having no controls in place.
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With Longleat now housing another bachelor group, I don't think there's any shortage of space for young males over the next few years. Should Marwell ever realise their plans for gorillas, that would again provide more room for bachelors. Its difficult to see what Port Lympne will do long-term.
 
johnstoni. said:
With Longleat now housing another bachelor group, I don't think there's any shortage of space for young males over the next few years. Should Marwell ever realise their plans for gorillas, that would again provide more room for bachelors. Its difficult to see what Port Lympne will do long-term.
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True, but even they have limited space, and that's without taking into account the potential difficulties in introducing new ones [of course, this all seems hypothetical].
 
leiclad20 said:
This is my attempt at breaking down the gorilla groups at Chessington now - please correct any errors!!

Group 1:
Kumba (M, retired)
Baffia (F, retired +/- infertile)
Kuni (M, Kumba x Asili)
Kumili (F, Kumba x Shani) (also breeding age - contracepted)

Group 2:
Damisi (M, breeding male)
Shani (F, breeding female)
Shanga (F, Shani x Kumba, Breeding female)
Unnamed newborn, born 07.12 ?date ?sex (Shanga x Damisi)
Asili (F, breeding female)
Mwana (M, born 23.2.12 Asili x Damisi)
Buu (F, Shani x Kumba, breeding female)
Mbula (M, born 2009, Buu x Damisi)
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A few bits of additional information:

Group 1:
Kumba II was wild born c.1968
Bafia was wild born c.1967
Kumi was born 10.08.04 to Shani (not Asili) x Kumba
Kumili was born 23.01.04 to Asili (not Shani) x Kumba

Group 2:
Damisi was born 14.04.97 in Frankfurt to Rebecca x Matze
Shani was born 10.02.90 to Lomie x Kumba (not this one)
Shanga was born 29.03.01
Asili was born 26.07.91 to Kaja x Kumba (not this one)
Buu was born 30.11.96
Mbula was born 10.03.09
 
Javan Rhino said:
If they had all females of the group pregnant and birthing at around the same time, and you got 3-4 males born, what would you do with them if when they reached a certain age, you didn't have the money for bachelor pad and no other zoos would take them? Euthenasia?
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I understand where you are coming from, and the 'male problem' in Gorillas is becoming a real issue. There are an awful lot of male babies/juveniles around and still being produced in Europe/UK that will need housing in the future. I wouldn't be surprised if Euthanasia has not at least been (privately) discussed as a possible solution- housing all of the surplus ones in bachelor groups is just not going to be possible in the future.

The problem with leaving females unbred is a different one but certainly Chessington is one place which seems to stagger breeding- its not an ideal situation but the group does look good and very natural with the current three young- I just hope this latest one is female.
 
johnstoni. said:
mainly because it will give Chessington even less reason to go for a disneyfied rockwork and grass monstrosity to replace the existing structure. I LOVE that Chessington has had the kind of success other zoos can only dream of having chosen to emulate the Howletts complex.
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I don't think there's any danger of that- I think that idea disappeared when they took the short cut/economy option by building an extension to the existing enclosure.

I think the success of the group isn't particularly related to the enclosure style but more to the make-up of the group in its early stages, principally the fortunate births of the two young females(rather than males) Shani and Asili. Also the management input of a skilled keeper at the same time.
 
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Hopefully the newborn is female. Could Kuni potentially be introduced into damisi's group as well as kumili, or would damisi not accept a younger male into the group?
 
Not sure how Damisi would regard him. If he can see/interact with him at present then he's far more likely to accept him than if he doesn't/can't, but I fear when the time comes they are more likely not to try it and move Kuni away somewhere.
 
Pertinax said:
Not sure how Damisi would regard him. If he can see/interact with him at present then he's far more likely to accept him than if he doesn't/can't, but I fear when the time comes they are more likely not to try it and move Kuni away somewhere.
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I think they will move him elsewhere, if they want to merge them into group then they will probably wait until Kumba and Bafia are deceased and then move 'Kuni' away. They will probably keep the young female for another extra breeding female (If need be). I can see them using Kumba's group's current enclosure for something else.
 
Jordan-Jaguar97 said:
I think they will move him elsewhere, if they want to merge them into group then they will probably wait until Kumba and Bafia are deceased and then move 'Kuni' away. They will probably keep the young female for another extra breeding female (If need be). I can see them using Kumba's group's current enclosure for something else.
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I think if Kumba dies first(and he is pretty old now) thats when they would merge the two groups and give them both enclosures to use. Whether the youngest female(Kumilii) stays or moves would I guess be down to Chessington/EEP future decision making but I suspect they will want to keep her. Kuni would probably have to leave but at this stage I have no idea what they plan for him.

The animals in this group seem to have very mixed 'ownership' (if that is the correct term)-afaik only Kumba and Baffia are actually owned by Chessington though some of the young might be too.
 
Javan Rhino said:
The trouble, I think, would be rehousing any surplus males that are born [a task that I believe isn't easy as it is]. If they had all females of the group pregnant and birthing at around the same time, and you got 3-4 males born, what would you do with them if when they reached a certain age, you didn't have the money for bachelor pad and no other zoos would take them? Euthenasia? I think the backlash over red river hogs was over-reaction enough, imagine it over a cute baby 'ABC' gorilla baby or two?

If they had to euthenise and it got out, then people would be criticising them having no controls in place.
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I know I've said this before, but this labelling of animals as ABC's really annoys me. It seems to downgrade them as not worthy of time or attention. No animal fits this mold.
 
mazfc said:
I know I've said this before, but this labelling of animals as ABC's really annoys me. It seems to downgrade them as not worthy of time or attention. No animal fits this mold.
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Just come across this as presumably the prompting of your thread in the General forum. Just thought I'd add here as well that all that is meant by ABC is that the animal is a familiar species to your average human in the street - NOT that is is boring or unworthy.
 
Maguari said:
Just come across this as presumably the prompting of your thread in the General forum. Just thought I'd add here as well that all that is meant by ABC is that the animal is a familiar species to your average human in the street - NOT that is is boring or unworthy.
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Couldn't have put it better myself. Everybody has their own interests and mine are a mixture [hell, rhinos and orangs are ABC enough and they're my two favourite animals]. It's just a way for us to distinguish between well known and lesser known species. It also doesn't make a species common, in my mind giant pandas and [to a lesser extent] koalas are ABC's.
 
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