Taronga Zoo Chimpanzee Troop

I believe two males will be coming to Rockhampton from overseas (unrelated to chimps in the region), so that would probably be the best option for Lani and Sembe by my reckoning. I'm not sure how a breeding holiday to Monarto would work; I know at Monarto they don't like to separate chimps off from the group, and it would probably be very disruptive to have the alpha male taken away from the others for however long it takes for a conception- bearing in mind that these things can take a long time, Soona (Monarto female) has been off contraceptives for three years with no pregnancy. It could wind up being a very long time to have Lani and Sembe away from a proper group, as going back and forth between zoos once a month is hardly feasible.

I would not be surprised if a bachelor group was in the regions future. Maybe an opportunity to house chimps at Western Plains Zoo?
 
tdierikx said:
Don't forget that Kuma is related to Lubutu somewhere in her lines, so breeding her with Sule could be a little close... then again Fumo could be from any of the other adult males in the group, of which 3 are also related via Lubutu...

Shabani is plenty popular with all of the females when they have a swelling... lol! Kamili in particular seems to really have a preference for him... she was haranguing him yesterday for showing interest in someone else's swelling even! Took after him with a stick she did!

I could see Shikamoo leading a small troop of viable females - Kuma, Kamili, the 2 new girls, and possibly Shiba - especially if he has proven himself by fathering any of the latest 3 babies. Sule could possibly stay with that group too to give Shikamoo some help or support, and/or to take on alpha role later...

It would be great if somewhere could be found for Samaki and Furahi, but they seem pretty content with their current roles in Lubutu's troop - Shabani may be a bit old for introduction to a new troop... ??

Then there's the conundrum of what to do with the current 3 boy babies once they mature...

T.
Click to expand...

It's certainly a complicated situation. I'm guessing the Taronga troop are not purebred, rather a mix of hybrids? Assuming this is not considered an issue in the Australasian region, they would need to consider what level of inbreeding to tolerate. While I'm against it in principal, it obviously isn't always possible to source unrelated animals.

Lisa, Shiba and Sasha were all born within the space of two years, so it is highly likely they have the same father. Then of course, Kuma, Lubutu and Kamili all share the same father (Snowy), which makes Kamili and Kuma related to Lubutu's sons: Samaki, Furahi, Shikamoo and Sule. Perhaps the species coordinator will sanction breeding between related individuals, unless they are full siblings or mother/son; father/daughter.

Being hybrids, the Taronga animals cannot contribute to other regions outside of Australasia, so it is probably of little significance as to whether they have minor inbreeding.

Tsoti would have been a similar age to Shabani when he was introduced to a new troop, but I don't think Shabani's personality would aid any introductions to a new troop, whether he was 13 or 21 years :)

I've heard Taronga has the ability to divide it's chimpanzee enclosure through some sort of sliding fence? Are the two enclosures then suitable for long term living, or is it only designed as a temporary measure?

Chimpanzee are certainly complex, while many matches have the potential to increase genetic diversity, the social implications of splitting up families are clearly equally as important. Ideally, you would export all males from Sule upwards and bring in a new males, but obviously this would be unfair to their mothers, especially Sasha who would be left childless.
 
The split enclosure is really only designed for short term use - the closed off area is quite small, and wouldn't be conducive to any number of chimps using it for extended periods.

Issues of inbreeding are always going to be a problem with captive animal groups - especially those with complicated social heirarchies like chimpanzees. It's not as simple as taking a few from one place and dropping them into another troop. They aren't as malleable as cattle type animals for example.

Shabani is a funny chimp really... sometimes I think he's quite happy to let someone else be alpha, but still allowing Shabani to mate with all and sundry... it's quite rare to see any display rtuckus actually get started by Shabani - that is usually left to Furahi or Samaki (and on the odd occasion Lani!)

Then again, look at who decided to start off his own display the other day... *grin*

17515195252_60e0df5000_z.jpg


T.
 
The US, I believe, do not manage chimpanzees on a subspecies specific basis either. Perhaps it would be better to cooperate with the American SSP rather than with a European program that has different goals to the Australian region. I would say that the ideal solution for managing breeding groups of chimps in zoos is to replicate the wild situation- keep males in their birth groups and bring in unrelated females from elsewhere. The main issue seems to be the lack of opportunity to move chimps in and out of the region, so almost all the chimps here are related. We really need more chimps to be brought in! It's a shame that unrelated males weren't brought in from Europe when the group at Monarto was being formed. Relying just on Tsotsi to bring new genetics from the male side if things doesn't seem to me to be much good in the long term. Any females sired by Sandali (a son of Snowy's) would not be suited to going to Taronga later in life for breeding.
 
Last edited:
We may have to start sterilising more of the males sometime soon if we can't regulate who is mating with who to produce what...

Of our unrelated females, none are really of a viable breeding age any more - and the younger females are related to most of the males in the group.

I'd be loathe to send ANY of our chimps to the US... they have been known to hand them off to laboratories in the past... however, we could maybe import a couple of unrelated males from there, yes? And/or females... maybe we could trade them for some Aussie icon wildlife for a US zoo - animals that are less likely to end up in strange places we never intended them to end up in...

Then there is the fact that we have such a great program at Taronga, the chimps are living much longer lives...

AARRGGHH! Glad I'm not the one tasked with running the Primate section...

T.
 
tdierikx said:
We may have to start sterilising more of the males sometime soon if we can't regulate who is mating with who to produce what...

Of our unrelated females, none are really of a viable breeding age any more - and the younger females are related to most of the males in the group.

I'd be loathe to send ANY of our chimps to the US... they have been known to hand them off to laboratories in the past... however, we could maybe import a couple of unrelated males from there, yes? And/or females... maybe we could trade them for some Aussie icon wildlife for a US zoo - animals that are less likely to end up in strange places we never intended them to end up in...

Then there is the fact that we have such a great program at Taronga, the chimps are living much longer lives...

AARRGGHH! Glad I'm not the one tasked with running the Primate section...

T.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but not sure that I agree with you on that part. Taronga would ONLY send animals (whether it be chimps, koalas or a lace monitor) to a reputable and accredited zoo. I think there would be an outrage by many (including myself) if Taronga ever sent an animal to a 'roadside zoo'. Zoos part of the North American SSP would certainly not send any animals to a labaratory (at least, so am I aware of). The only comparable example that I think comes close is Cincinnati sending Koko (and later Ndume) to Gorilla Foundation where she is involved in the language research program. Taronga did actually send chimps to Jackson Zoo in Missouri FYI.

On your second point, I do agree that in Australia we do have a large number of captive long-lived animals. However (not sure if this is your intended intention, I could be wrong), the oldest chimpanzee currently in captivity does in fact live in the US (along with the oldest gorilla among others), so US zoos are equally credible as those in the ZAA region.

Sorry if this sounds in any way harsh or vain but I hope you understand :)
 
The chimpanzee SSP in the US are opposed to the use of chimps in laboratories (and as pets and entertainment for that matter), and several accredited zoos have actually taken chimps in from unfortunate backgrounds such as these. They have a great program, Project ChimpCare, which brings attention to these sorts of issues. I have no reason to think that accredited zoos over there would necessarily be a poorer option for a chimpanzee than a zoo over here.
 
This is a lively debate!

On the subject of sending Taronga bred chimpanzee to the States, when they sent three to Jackson Zoo in 1986, the infant was sold a month later to "gentleman" in the entertainment industry. Taronga was furious and demanded the Reagan administration take action as they had not exported the infant (still dependent on it's mother obviously) for it to wind up in a situation like that. The zoo had conducted preliminary checks prior to the export, and had no reason to believe things would turn out that way. While this was nearly 30 years ago, and I'd like to believe any zoo in the US would not take this action, or even worse, send them to a laboratory, the turn of events could easily have soured Australasian studbook coordinators on the idea of sending our chimps there.

Sterlising young chimpanzee (Fumo, Sudi, Liwali) through a vasectomy could be viable way of ensuring genetic diversity, by preventing their inbreeding with related individuals, however when you consider the may live to 60, it seems too early in their life to make such a decision. It has been done in the case of Gombe, who was around 16 when he was vasectomised and sent to Monarto. He was inbred by the breeding of an aunt (Jodie) to a nephew (Boyd) at Wellington Zoo in 1993. This idea however, combined with the export of Lubutu, Shabani, Samaki, Furahi, Shikamoo and Sule; and the import of a young unrelated male, could provide an oppotunity for new genetics, through a new paternal line (perhaps imported from the States if the European region cannot spare a surplus male).

Alternatevely, the zoo may choose to replicate the wild situation, through retaining all males born in the troop. While it would not necessarily be beneficial considering Kuma, Kamili, Lani and Sembe are related to all the males, it would from a humanatarian/anthropomorphic aspect, respect the efforts Lisa, Shiba, Sasha and Kuma have put into growing their families/support.
 
Fumo IS rather advanced for his age, you have to admit... he was using the termite mound successfully not long after he turned 1!! Apparently that is usually happening at around 3, yes?

Sudi has come along heaps since Shiba started to give him a bit more freedom. Devising strategies to cope with Fumo's boisterous playing style I'd say is the reasone for that... lol! Sudi is getting more adept at rope work, climbing onto logs and jumping off them, and tries his hardest to imitate Fumo as best he can.

Liwali is the most "backward" in achievements among the 3 little ones at Taronga - mainly because Lisa hasn't let go of him much so far... however, recently she has decided to let him get out of arm's reach a few times, and he's been intently studying Fumo's rope techniques and the like. I even saw him stand up to Fumo for the first time the other day - smacked him down too! Go Liwali!

Thanks for the compliment on my photo Zoofan15... I thought it was a particularly interesting one to share...

T.
 
tdierikx said:
Fumo IS rather advanced for his age, you have to admit... he was using the termite mound successfully not long after he turned 1!! Apparently that is usually happening at around 3, yes?

Sudi has come along heaps since Shiba started to give him a bit more freedom. Devising strategies to cope with Fumo's boisterous playing style I'd say is the reasone for that... lol! Sudi is getting more adept at rope work, climbing onto logs and jumping off them, and tries his hardest to imitate Fumo as best he can.

Liwali is the most "backward" in achievements among the 3 little ones at Taronga - mainly because Lisa hasn't let go of him much so far... however, recently she has decided to let him get out of arm's reach a few times, and he's been intently studying Fumo's rope techniques and the like. I even saw him stand up to Fumo for the first time the other day - smacked him down too! Go Liwali!

Thanks for the compliment on my photo Zoofan15... I thought it was a particularly interesting one to share...

T.
Click to expand...

Haha that's Kuma for you, she's pushed Fumo from day one. I remember, even when he was only a few months old. She'd put him on the ground and leave him to make his own way back to her. I saw a video of him when he was about 4 months old and very shaky on his feet. He was surrounded by the other chimpanzee but weaved through them to return to Kuma. He made a squeaking noise at Samaki (Don't you dare pick me up!).

Lulu and Fimi's records coming next week!
 
He made a squeaking noise at Samaki (Don't you dare pick me up!).
Click to expand...
Fumo still has an uneasy relationship with Samaki... the little bugger takes every opportunity to tell him off or slap at him... god only knows what Samaki did to him, but Fumo definitely treats him differently from all of the rest of the troop...

T.
 
tdierikx said:
Fumo still has an uneasy relationship with Samaki... the little bugger takes every opportunity to tell him off or slap at him... god only knows what Samaki did to him, but Fumo definitely treats him differently from all of the rest of the troop...

T.
Click to expand...

Haha that could relate to a story I heard about Kuma, shortly after Fumo's birth. The young lady in question heard a commotion coming from the indoor buildings followed by Samaki charging out the building. Kuma went racing after him (with two month old Fumo clinging to her belly). Samaki was clearly terrified of Kuma catching up with him, and retreated to the top of the climbing structures.
 
So I guess Taronga has the following options, if they are to import the two new females:

1. Keep the troop as it, allow breeding of new females, and current females

2. Export Lani and Sembe, continue to breed select females (Kuma, Kamili etc.) plus new females

3. Send Lani and Sembe on breeding holiday to suitable zoo in Australia, have them return to group pregnant/with infants, continue to breed select females and new females

4. Export Lubutu, Shabani, Samaki, Furahi, Shikamoo and Sule. Vasectomise Fumo, Sudi and Liwali, and import new male (around 5 years of age) to breed with all females of reproductive age

5. Export all adult males, except for either (Shabani) or (Shikamoo and Sule), combine with Idea 2. or Idea 3. with regards to Lani and Sembe.
 
Zoofan15 said:
Haha that could relate to a story I heard about Kuma, shortly after Fumo's birth. The young lady in question heard a commotion coming from the indoor buildings followed by Samaki charging out the building. Kuma went racing after him (with two month old Fumo clinging to her belly). Samaki was clearly terrified of Kuma catching up with him, and retreated to the top of the climbing structures.
Click to expand...

I was there one day when Kuma actually put Fumo down and charged off after Samaki, who was running for his life and screeching like a big girl... and Kuma screeching like she wanted to kill him.

Then along comes Sule carrying Fumo and waits for Kuma to be finished with her business so Fumo can be returned to her.

Another time, Fumo was separated from Kuma during a commotion over the food throwover. Furahi stood over the top of him and kept him safe until Sule came to retrieve him and take him back to Kuma.

The best one though, was when Kuma (with tiny Fumo, maybe a week old) decided that Lubutu was in a spot she wanted, and she went at him and harrangued him until he moved and gave her the spot she wanted. She has no respect that one... lol! She's taken on Lubutu when he's had to tell off Furahi on the odd occasion too!

T.
 
tdierikx said:
I was there one day when Kuma actually put Fumo down and charged off after Samaki, who was running for his life and screeching like a big girl... and Kuma screeching like she wanted to kill him.

Then along comes Sule carrying Fumo and waits for Kuma to be finished with her business so Fumo can be returned to her.

Another time, Fumo was separated from Kuma during a commotion over the food throwover. Furahi stood over the top of him and kept him safe until Sule came to retrieve him and take him back to Kuma.

The best one though, was when Kuma (with tiny Fumo, maybe a week old) decided that Lubutu was in a spot she wanted, and she went at him and harrangued him until he moved and gave her the spot she wanted. She has no respect that one... lol! She's taken on Lubutu when he's had to tell off Furahi on the odd occasion too!

T.
Click to expand...

That sounds like Kuma. She is an excellent mother and very supportive of her offspring. Kuma has doen exceptionally well, considering her mother's export left her effectively orphaned at the age of 7.

While Shiba is just as protective, if her offspring upset Lubutu, I've heard it's their problem, and while most likely unhappy about it, she doesn't usually intervene. Sembe will be getting disciplined by Lubutu when needed too, now she has lost her white baby tuft.

Sasha on the otherhand, she just lets her sons get on with it. I don't think they get much support, unless they drag Spitter into the conflict as Sandali used to do.

It'll be interesting to see how the new females fit into the hierachy, especially if they are the sisters (Ceres and Naomi) and have each other for support. I'm guessing fourth behind Lisa's family, Shiba's family and Kuma's family in time.
 
Spoke to a keeper today who confirmed that Shikamoo sired two of the babies and Samaki sired one (he did not specify who fathered who though).
 
Go Moo!!! I'm tipping Fumo and Liwali by the Moo... and Sudi by Samaki... *grin*

Shikamoo, the quiet achiever... lol!

T.
 
tdierikx said:
Go Moo!!! I'm tipping Fumo and Liwali by the Moo... and Sudi by Samaki... *grin*

Shikamoo, the quiet achiever... lol!

T.
Click to expand...

Thanks Jabiru96 for that info, and I agree with Tdierikx on Shikamoo being the father of Fumo and Liwali, and Samaki being the father of Sudi. I don't think Shiba's as fond of the younger lads, unless they're her own lol.

As mentioned on Monarto's thread, Shikamoo's brother, Sandali, has been confirmed as the father of their infant, Zuri. Three grandchildren for Sasha :D

I don't believe Sasha's daughter, Kike, who was exported in 1999, has ever bred. Can anyone confirm?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top