ZooTripper365
Well-Known Member
I think another monkey world style park outside the UK could help.
Chimpanzees in Europe
- Thread starter ShonenJake13
- Start date
I mean you already have Apenheul and la vallée des singes. I think it's more about some parks having to realize you can't have all the big animals, you need to make choices. So it's more that parks would have to make a concise choise to keep great apes and keep them well. What is desperately needed is more well designed enclosure that confirm to fission fusion needs having multiple rooms and outside enclosures, let them be netted to save space this also allows the apes access to the entire enclosure baring temperature needs during the night. And even though the Great ape TAG claims to strive for sub species pure groups their current actions have me doubt it sometimes. Zoos seem eager to invest in Elephants, and rightfully so however zoos should be the same about their great apes. Then again plenty of primates or animals in general need more holders.
ZooTripper365
Well-Known Member
It's down to people's expectations really. 99% of bad reviews for zoos on TripAdvisor I see are because they don't have "traditional" animals such as chimpanzees, elephants, giraffes, lions, tigers etc.
Just out of interest, why do you have doubts regarding TAG's intention/current actions of pure chimp groups?
Because plenty of zoos still breed with chimpanzee hybrids. Also hybridization still occurs in plenty of groups, and looking at the management of the black faced or central chimpanzee pan troglodytes troglodytes I have my questions while I don't have full access to the most recent studbook. For example Chita at Antwerp zoo is allowed to breed with every female they have regardless of sup-species status. Barring success with Chita now every animal is allowed to breed. Looking at the sub-species status according to the 2014 studbook they have around 26(+ potential 8) individuals that can be founders which is narrow however possible to maintain a healthy population. However with 26 individuals you need great management. Of the founders 8 are still alive that produced offspring. Only 6 of the existing plus potential founders are males. So loosing one founder can be detrimental to the success. Another issue is the aging population and potential founders that haven't reproduced.
To quote the 2014 studbook regarding this sub-species:
"Population goals The number of identified P. t. troglodytes warrants a breeding effort for the subspecies inside the joint EEP. Current GD within the EEP is 94.5%. Retaining 90% GD for 100 years canot be achieved at the present level of reproduction beaing in mind that the there has not been a coordinated effort for this subspecies so far. There is an urgent need for breeding as well as identification of additional founders to achieve the goal. Further testing of the remaining group of generic chimpanzees, potentially resulting in the identification of more P. t. troglodytes individuals combined with coordinated management to set up additional breeding groups will hopefully boost the effort. Additional analysis at this point of the recently initiated effort is deemed redundant. Coming editions of the studbook will include more detailed information and analyses on this subspecies in conjunction with development of the breeding efforts."
It being almost a decade later I see this project failing however I have no insight as to what goes on behind the scenes or the politics of it. So I have doubts and questions no shade to the current keeper of the studbook.
To quote the 2014 studbook regarding this sub-species:
"Population goals The number of identified P. t. troglodytes warrants a breeding effort for the subspecies inside the joint EEP. Current GD within the EEP is 94.5%. Retaining 90% GD for 100 years canot be achieved at the present level of reproduction beaing in mind that the there has not been a coordinated effort for this subspecies so far. There is an urgent need for breeding as well as identification of additional founders to achieve the goal. Further testing of the remaining group of generic chimpanzees, potentially resulting in the identification of more P. t. troglodytes individuals combined with coordinated management to set up additional breeding groups will hopefully boost the effort. Additional analysis at this point of the recently initiated effort is deemed redundant. Coming editions of the studbook will include more detailed information and analyses on this subspecies in conjunction with development of the breeding efforts."
It being almost a decade later I see this project failing however I have no insight as to what goes on behind the scenes or the politics of it. So I have doubts and questions no shade to the current keeper of the studbook.
Plzen is trying with P.t.troglodytes. Two of their adult females are pure, two are hybrid (50%). One of the pure females is pregnant now, fingers crossed it results in a healthy infant. And they will obtain a second pure male, to give more options for the second pure female (that doesnt vibe with the current male so far).
However I agree that zoo-future of this subspecies doesnt look too nice.
However I agree that zoo-future of this subspecies doesnt look too nice.
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Maybe too few animals, too late, too long hesitated. In order to create a sustainable foundation.
The thing is I'm certain it's still possible to keep a healthy population of this subspecies if action is taken right now. If their would be free transfer of animals it can still be feasible. However this would only be possible if certain zoos would be willing to give up their animals and the zoos that do have animals are willing to totally reorganize their group. Right now according to Zootierliste as accurate as it is 7 of the 15 holders have 1 animal mostly males. If you start allocating those males or solo females to one facility the future would look more bright. I would advocate still multi male multi female groups adding non sub-species specific castrated or sterilized or vasectomised or contraceptive protected animals to stabilize the group, removing difficult animals. That way you would temporarily reduce holders but increase efficiency and increase the odds of a sustainable program. Without even needing wildcaught animals.
That's what makes it so frustrating if managed well and everyone would work together it's still possible. You might need to use IVF and other techniques and collect semen and so on but it's feasible. But for some reason it doesn't happen. However right now you would still need some luck.
That's what makes it so frustrating if managed well and everyone would work together it's still possible. You might need to use IVF and other techniques and collect semen and so on but it's feasible. But for some reason it doesn't happen. However right now you would still need some luck.
Completely agree. Integration of chimps into new groups needs care but usually succeeds. There is no reason to lose several subspecies of chimps. Zoo directors need to treat chimpanzees as proper endangered species, not the least valuable great ape in preference for gorillas.
Reality is that we will lose many chimpanzee holders in the future - I guess between one third and a half in Germany when their current group dies away. Reasons are that several current enclosures are only tolerated for the current inhabitants and it would cost a lot to bring enclosures to a modern standard - and in some cases there simply is no space for an adequate facility. As far as I have heard the studbook keeper is pretty active trying to make changes, but truth also is that many zoos do not want changes in their group as long as theirs is working without major trouble. It's not so easy to find a zoo taking in chimpanzees, so at the end of the day it's again a zoo like Gelsenkirchen taking two although their inside enclosure - as well as the one of the other two breeders, Leipzig and Osnabrück - is already pretty full.
Taking in mind that there is a possible divisions in six in the european chimps.
status unknown origin
status hybridization subspecies
status Pan troglodytes troglodytes
status Pan troglodytes verus
status Pan troglodytes schweinfurthii
status Pan troglodytes ellioti (also vellurosus)
(only for reason of completeness Pan troglodytes marugensis)
Were are at this moment ongoing succes groups of these different categories? Ongoing, flourishing, breeding, healthy.
What are the numbers of the different categories? And how is the age pyramid in these categories.
I would not move old animals out of there group. Young ones, who are capable of adapting. How many of these young ones are there available?
status unknown origin
status hybridization subspecies
status Pan troglodytes troglodytes
status Pan troglodytes verus
status Pan troglodytes schweinfurthii
status Pan troglodytes ellioti (also vellurosus)
(only for reason of completeness Pan troglodytes marugensis)
Were are at this moment ongoing succes groups of these different categories? Ongoing, flourishing, breeding, healthy.
What are the numbers of the different categories? And how is the age pyramid in these categories.
I would not move old animals out of there group. Young ones, who are capable of adapting. How many of these young ones are there available?
Dying out hybrid chimps in old exhibits is not a bad thing per se. But there are so few pure-bred chimps of central and eastern subspecies, that bringing them together and finding zoos willing to breed them is not an impossible effort.
Even if I still think that zoos underestimate visitor appeal of chimpanzees and overvalue gorillas. Chimps have been a surefire way to bring visitors since they first appeared in zoos.
Even if I still think that zoos underestimate visitor appeal of chimpanzees and overvalue gorillas. Chimps have been a surefire way to bring visitors since they first appeared in zoos.
The only sub-species that have a future are Pan troglodytes troglodytes, Pan troglodytes verus. Pan troglodytes schweinfurthii doesn't have enough animals to attempt to start a healthy breeding group. If we look solely at the 2014 studbook 6 were confirmed (most passed away already) if we look at zootierliste and a little knowledge: Pakawi park had a couple 1,1 with offspring, Copenhagen has a sole female, Berlin has a sole male, Leipzig has 2 Females and Artis has 2 females. These are the potential founders, however some are probably offspring or I doubt the purity. 8 Chimps is not a feasible amount to start a healthy population.
Pan troglodytes ellioti (also vellurosus) and Pan troglodytes marugensis have 0 confirmed holders, so not really possible.
Pan troglodytes verus has 100 founders with 16( only 6 likely to reproduce) potential additional so that breeding program is great. Personally I think more founders can be added due to laboratories and such however this isn't needed.
And Pan troglodytes troglodytes was discussed above.
For more like graphs and so I suggest you download: European studbook. Chimpanzee. 1st Edition of joint EEP studbook. Frands Carlsen Copenhagen Zoo Tom de Jongh Burgers Zoo - PDF Free Download
Sure.
P.t. verus
1.0 Lome, *August 11, 2001 in Leipzig, Robert x Corry
1.0 Lobo, *April 4, 2004 in Leipzig, Robert x Corry
1.0 Tando, *January 6, 2014 in Osnabrück, Tatu x Vanessa
1.0 Mshangao, *July 31, 2019 in Osnabrück, Tatu x Vakanga
1.0 Kiano, *March 24, 2022 in Osnabrück, Lome/Lobo x Vanessa
0.1 Vanessa, *December 5, 1982 in Rijswijk, Frits x Louise
0.1 Vakanga, *Febuary 7, 1995 in Zurich, Sepp Toni x Fali
0.1 Tisa, *August 24, 2002 in Osnabrück, Tatu x Lady
0.1 Tamika, *May 6, 2014 in Osnabruck, Tatu x Vakanga
0.1 Lilani, *December 19, 2022 in Osnabrück, Lome/Lobo x Vakanga
Hybrids
0.1 Buba, *October 28, 2002 in Hodenhagen, Panko x Pranka
0.1 Amelie, *May 25, 2008 in Hodenhagen, Panko x Pranka
Vimoto
Well-Known Member
Thank you!
Do you know the list of Berlin too?
Vimoto
Well-Known Member
Do you know which subspecies are they belong?