Dudley Zoological Gardens Chimps, Tigers or Bears?

[Benosaurus]

As you may already know, Dudley zoo have announced they are planning to spend £250,000 on one of three newly proposed projects in 2018. The zoo is allowing the public to decide which one of the three options goes ahead first by allowing visitors, who add the ten per cent voluntary donation to their entrance fee, to vote for which option is their favourite.

The three options are...

Option 1. "The first project is adapting the fencing in the chimp enclosure, which will enable us to introduce males to the all-female group, as well as extending the climbing frame and creating additional viewing facilities for visitors".

Option 2. "The second proposed development includes reinstating brown bears back into the Tecton Bear Ravine and building separate internal dens at the far end of the paddock as well as providing a large climbing frame".

Option 3. "The third option is to extend the Sumatran tiger enclosure across the rear bank, as well as creating new housing with visitor viewing and building additional climbing frames and platforms".

As a Dudley zoo regular, I am curious to know which option people will vote for and thus what developments I am likely to see at the zoo next year. The announcement of these 3 options has created a great deal of discussion amongst zoochatters on the Dudley Zoo 2017 thread, but it is hard to gauge the majority opinion. This is why I have decided to create a poll. Of course I am aware that a group of zoochatters isn't exactly a fair sample of the zoo-visiting population, but perhaps a poll for people with presumably more animal/zoo knowledge will in the end produce the option that should be done, for the zoo world and for Dudley zoo itself, rather than producing the option which is simply the general public's favourite (for example, chosen just because it is their favourite animal).

It would be preferable if only zoochatters who are at least slightly familiar with Dudley Zoo, it's situation and the enclosures concerned were to vote in this poll.

I have not included an 'other' option, for example using the money for the orang project, as this is not what the zoo is offering.

Voters are able to change their minds.
Votes will be displayed publicly.
The poll will close after 7 days.

Happy voting.

 

[Brum]

I've already said my piece but for the record I believe it should be the chimps BUT I want bears. Therefore I'm (against my own desires!) going to vote chimps.

As for the tigers... They seem content, the enclosure isn't ground breaking but more than adequate and it has been used for breeding pairs in the past. Therefore leave them be, concentrate on either of the other two.

 

[pipaluk]

I've voted bears and won't be changing it, though don't think has to be Brown Bears!
Already explained why in Dudley news thread

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

I voted tigers bearing in mind I would like to see sun bears in the Tectons. I gather though it is more likely that brown bears will appear, but then I would be all for exhibiting endangered browns (as per Marsicano or Pyrenean) and making an active ex situ contribution to in situ conservation. I seriously think rehousing circus and maltreated bears in zoos' few captive spaces is seriously overrated and needs - special sites for rehabilitation instead (with some support from the EAZA zoo community). Most likely what will happen is that the majority of voters will go for chimps as their housing currently is really "crisis mode / historical legacy". I will stick by tigers though.

But seriously, what really is a first need / requirement is improving the orang housing indoor / outdoor.

 

[Angel]

I voted with my heart and went for bears - I would love to see European brown bears at Dudley again.

As Brum said earlier in the thread, the tiger enclosure is at least adequate and they seem quite content so they would be thid on my list. Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that it would be fantastic to revamp the chimp enclosure and introduce males, I have real concerns as to how that could be done without splitting up the existing female group or unduly stressing them or putting any incoming male(s) at risk.

 

[AdrianW1963]

I have gone against my heart with my vote and gone for a species that I normally would not, I didn't vote for the chimps as I think they should make arrangements to remove the chimps from the collection as I am a regular and don't see many people going to see the chimps indoor or outdoor exhibits I feel this are could be used more effectively.
I love any cat species but feel like others that the exhibit is adequate but yes could do with expanding sometime in the future, breeding seems a little slow with the current pair (like the lions) but still hoping to see some cubs soon.
My vote therefore was for Bears with Inca now getting towards the end of her days (hope a lot more to come) the collection should be looking to bring in a new species of bear or even keep the same species, the tecton area could provide a excellent chance to bring in a small bear species and given the amount of room it could be a great exhibit as long as the species is of the small breeds

 

[Benosaurus]

I will reiterate that the bear option is for BROWN bears. If it was for a smaller, more endangered bear species then I'd have definitely considered that option, but that's not what's on offer (however plans can change). Also, without extending the paddock up to the top of the wooded slope it will be too small for brown bears, so you're just creating another inadequate enclosure IMO. On top of that, spending a lot of money on bringing in a large new species is questionable when several of the zoo's current animals could do with having enclosure upgrades first. It's not urgent and can wait.

The tiger option would be very nice, but I agree it isn't urgent. Also, thinking about it the changes wouldn't make a huge difference, apart from the indoor viewing. They could easily extend it, but not by a significant amount. Like someone said, a better enclosure could be built in the far future in a different part of the zoo; maybe in the woodland near the chimps.

That leaves me with the chimp option. The moral, urgent option. Well, urgent 10 years ago, but to be fair the zoo was in a very different place back then. However, it is also the most difficult option. After reading member's comments, introducing a group of males sounds horrendously complicated and risky. As well as this, the line, "will enable us to introduce males" could suggest that the males may not be arriving anytime soon, but if any of the females are too old by that point then they could just introduce new females as well.

To be honest I was satisfied with the zoo's plans and recent improvements before all this was announced. So far this year the zoo has made big improvements to the capuchin and lynx enclosures. They've completed the giant anteater complex. Later this year the snow leopard enclosure will be getting a major revamp and double in size. The Queen Mary aviary will be refurbished. The triple aviaries will be demolished and replaced with a single larger one. The farmyard will be refurbished. The barn will be replaced with one twice the size. Not to mention all the new species brought in (small species that haven't required expensive new enclosures to be built).

Oh, and they announced this year they are going to build a brand new orang-utan enclosure!!! That's huge news for Dudley zoo and anyone that knows DZG knows that it is EXTREMELY urgent. It's also relatively uncomplicated. However, they need to raise £800,000 within 3 years, which is a big ask. This is why it concerns me when they say they're spending a massive £250,000 on another project; one that could potentially be either flawed, unnecessary or a nightmare. They must be confident they'll raise the £800,000, and of course I hope they do, but if it were up to me I'd stick that 250k in one of the castle cannons and fire it straight at the orang project.

 

[pipaluk]

I agree that the Orang-utans are definitely the priority, I said the same in the Dudley thread. I don't understand why they are spending £250k which could go towards that project.

But if they want to bring in more visitors and consequently more money for the orang-utans, I don't think minor alterations to the tiger enclosure or to the Chimp enclosure will draw extra attention and visitors. The return of bears of any species to the tecton bear ravine just might. Not saying it's necessarily the case, but I think a major new species will probably be more of an attraction than the other two options .

 

[Benosaurus]

I agree that the Orang-utans are definitely the priority, I said the same in the Dudley thread. I don't understand why they are spending £250k which could go towards that project.

But if they want to bring in more visitors and consequently more money for the orang-utans, I don't think minor alterations to the tiger enclosure or to the Chimp enclosure will draw extra attention and visitors. The return of bears of any species to the tecton bear ravine just might. Not saying it's necessarily the case, but I think a major new species will probably be more of an attraction than the other two options .

I have to agree with all of this.

There's just SO many pros, cons and unknowns with all 3 projects.

 

[cliffxdavis]

I am a regular and don't see many people going to see the chimps indoor or outdoor exhibits I feel this are could be used more effectively.

I think the main reason non regulars don't visit the chimps (I agree it is nearly always deserted when I visit) is they are so very tucked away that they are a hidden exhibit.

 

[pipaluk]

I think the main reason non regulars don't visit the chimps (I agree it is nearly always deserted when I visit) is they are so very tucked away that they are a hidden exhibit.

Would it be any less hidden if they strengthened the fence? I suspect not! There's nothing wrong with the current outdoor enclosure, yet from what I've read the chimps rarely use the large area allocated to them.

 

[cliffxdavis]

Option 1. "The first project is adapting the fencing in the chimp enclosure, which will enable us to introduce males to the all-female group, as well as extending the climbing frame and creating additional viewing facilities for visitors".

Would it be any less hidden if they strengthened the fence? I suspect not!

No you are quite right but the proposal is for additional viewing facilities as well and this together with infant chimps (and improved signage/visitor flow) would bring more visitors to them. Also a mixed sex group "may" be more physically active.

There's nothing wrong with the current outdoor enclosure, yet from what I've read the chimps rarely use the large area allocated to them.

Again you are right they do not seem to make much use of the space available to them. Again mixed sex group might exhibit more activity?

But Kifaru Bwana seems to think the exhibit needs a lot of work as "their housing currently is really "crisis mode / historical legacy"" . Be interested for a bit more detail there.

 

[pipaluk]

Option 1. "The first project is adapting the fencing in the chimp enclosure, which will enable us to introduce males to the all-female group, as well as extending the climbing frame and creating additional viewing facilities for visitors".



No you are quite right but the proposal is for additional viewing facilities as well and this together with infant chimps (and improved signage/visitor flow) would bring more visitors to them. Also a mixed sex group "may" be more physically active.



Again you are right they do not seem to make much use of the space available to them. Again mixed sex group might exhibit more activity?

But Kifaru Bwana seems to think the exhibit needs a lot of work as "their housing currently is really "crisis mode / historical legacy"" . Be interested for a bit more detail there.

I can't disagree, the change to the Chimp enclosure 'might' improve them as an exhibit, but it's a bigger gamble than bears, as a new exhibit & species has to be better than none!

Don't understand the bit about improved viewing because improved viewing of an empty field won't encourage visitors! Unless by chance things change.

I'm afraid no one will convince me bringing in male chimps will bring in more visitors than a major new species.

They need extra visitors to support the orang-utan development, only a new species has a hope of doing that IMO

I think £250k would be wasted on the chimps, better to save it for the orang-utans!

 

[FunkyGibbon]

Whenever I visit Dudley I always leave the Chimp enclosure deeply disturbed. Although there have been exceptions the vast majority of the time all (eight?) of them are sat inside doing absolutely nothing. Just staring into space. I've never seen it in any other zoo. Obviously with young ones that changes things completely, but even males would create a far more dynamic group dynamic.
I would rather the chimps receive the money than the orangs frankly.

 

[cliffxdavis]

I'm afraid no one will convince me bringing in male chimps will bring in more visitors than a major new species.

I think you are right in that but are missing the obvious.

Male + Female = Babies.

Baby chimps will really up attendance levels and generate funds for the orang improvements.

I also agree the orang improvements are needed asap.

Frankly listening to the conversations of visitors as I walk around Dudley zoo I am not convinced more would visit to see bears of any kind or any of the many other new species that might prompt you or I to make a special journey. I do believe baby chimps will.

 

[cliffxdavis]

Although there have been exceptions the vast majority of the time all (eight?) of them are sat inside doing absolutely nothing. Just staring into space.

My experience is the same and even on the odd occasion when they are outside they seem to just sit still staring into space

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

I think you are right in that but are missing the obvious.

Male + Female = Babies.

Baby chimps will really up attendance levels and generate funds for the orang improvements.

I also agree the orang improvements are needed asap.

Frankly listening to the conversations of visitors as I walk around Dudley zoo I am not convinced more would visit to see bears of any kind or any of the many other new species that might prompt you or I to make a special journey. I do believe baby chimps will.

The decision for male chimps' introduction is not one for Dudley to take. I am not sure how far they might have gone with the species committee and coordinator on this.

But given that potentially their chimps may for a good part be hybrid or the ssp.'s not currently part of a captive-breeding program and the issues surrounding how to re-assemble a cohesive social group that fits with their own objectives' (to breed) and shift out the hybrids and to do introductions is really a complex one.

It just seems a bit unrealistic to expect off the EEP/EAZA coordinator. In fact, I would personally feel that it might be better to do without the chimps altogether and over time reinvent this dead end part of the zoo over time.

Again - as others have observed too -, I really do think that over all the 3 choices for a side project presented to the general public the orang utan area is as yet the only critical and definite needs' project for upgrade and renovation that Dudley Zoo should take up.

Out of interest: where do these 3 choices really fit into a longer term vision (this is true for tiger, chimp and bear projects ... where do they fit in with)? There is still the unfinished business with the Dome / Origins project they were looking into.

 

[pipaluk]

I have to agree with most of Kifaru Bwana's comments, but would also point out that several of these females are probably too old to breed ( 3 will be over 40 next year) & the younger ones are probably the ones most likely to be impure. There will be 3 mid 20s & one 30 year old who won't have seen a male in 13 years, so male+female may not automatically equal babies as suggested earlier. Not instantly anyway!

 

[Pertinax]

I have to agree with most of Kifaru Bwana's comments, but would also point out that several of these females are probably too old to breed ( 3 will be over 40 next year) & the younger ones are probably the ones most likely to be impure. There will be 3 mid 20s & one 30 year old who won't have seen a male in 13 years, so male+female may not automatically equal babies as suggested earlier. Not instantly anyway!

When this group of females came from London, the idea was to form a breeding group with their original male Pepe, while his two original females Bella and Cherry were sent to London to form a smaller group there. But Pepe died not long after their arrical and they have created this existing and unsatisfactory situation to develop by not replacing him straight away/soon after. Now they have an elderly group of females that are probably mostly past breeding age anyway. They could perhaps add a group of much younger mixed-sex chimps that could grow up with the existing females- might be easier than trying to add fully adult males.

Or....Alternative 2- get rid of the chimps altogether- but difficult to rehome no doubt.

 

[Benosaurus]

This poll will close later this evening, so this is your last chance to vote if you haven't already.

To those who have already voted; feel free to change your vote if you wish to.