Chinese views toward animal handling - Discussion

"Cynical" or simply "sad and realistic"? You be the judge, buddy!

The Chinese and the animals.... Oh boy, don´t get me started!

On second thought, do start me up!

You know the worst thing I have seen so far? A wonderfully concerned German TV-crew made a documentary about the treatment of dogs in China - particularly dogs used in the fur business.

Posing as potential fur byers, the Germans documented unbelievable cruelty towards the dogs. The poor animals were kept under appalling circumstances, living tied up with steel wire, not making it possible for them to move - only lie in their own filth, knowing nothing but kicks and blows from humans. The Germans noticed that only the smallest of the Chinese children seemed to regard the dogs without contempt - the 2 or 3 year olds seemed to feel something for the poor dogs, but older than that children had already picked up the attitude of the grown up Chinese.

The dogs were skinned alive, quite openly in a city where the screams of the tortured animals must have been heard all over the town, obviously without anybody caring about it. Except, of course, the Germans with their hidden camera.

By the way - the Chinese are supposed to take over the world within this century. Go figure...
 
When it comes to dogs, "the times they are a-changin'". More and more Chinese "discover" dogs not as lunch, but as pets. Especially toy breeds, but equally larger breeds are becoming more and more widespread and popular. Dog boutiques in western format are being opened in the larger cities, and Chinese universities and colleges teaching veterinary medicine start to increase their academical focus on companion animals/pets. It will take time, but I think the attitude torwards dogs (and other animals) in the general Chinese public are going to change for the better with improving living standards. On the way to this goal, the West can help by offering advice, but also displaying unified determinateness & pertinaciousness in regard to resolving this matter. Decrying the Chinese in public like said German documentary (sounds like STERN-like journalism to me...) only results in spiteful reactions by the Chinese, and no improvement.
 
Dan, i don't disagree with you but the "civillised" west is far from guiltless. Don't you think that keeping calves in tiny pens in the perpetual darkness whilst in their own filth for the production of veal is just as bad? I could name countless other examples from across the world, crocodile and battery farming, for example. Journalists don't report the cruelty behind these practices because people don't keep pet chickens, crocodiles or cows - there is not the emotional attachment. Not to mention all the animal cruelty cases. Sure, china's treatment of animals is disgusting and there is no excuse for it but we are far from guiltless - people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, quite literally in this case!
 
@rillekolmard: If you don't want to read "all the text", then just don't read it...

It was a rather small indoor and outdoor exhibit with about ten or more fennec foxes in it. Some can be seen here, lying on a heater. Desert??? lol...
 
Sun Wukong said:
More and more Chinese "discover" dogs not as lunch, but as pets. Especially toy breeds, but equally larger breeds are becoming more and more widespread and popular.
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Actually I suppose the Chinese "invented" toy/lapdogs like the Pekinese more than 2000 years ago
 
@Pygathrix: Other ancient civilisations also selectively bred toy breeds long time ago-for example the Techichi. The current Chinese trend to a more modern, western approach to dogs includes, as mentioned before, also larger breeds.
 
@Sun Wukong
Nothing would please me more than if what you write is representative of an on-going cultural change in China. Unfortunately, I can´t help but to recall a chronicle by the China correspondent in the leading Swedish business paper, "Dagens Industri", that I read a few months ago. It was just a silly chit-chatty chronicle about everyday life in urban China, but happened to contain some (for me) very disturbing words. The correspondent described how he often saw middle class Chinese walking around with big dogs in very tight leash, having fun by hitting the dogs in the head with small metal truncheons, making them go crazy and bark at other Chinese on the side-walk. True story - in the sense that I read this in one of Sweden´s most respected newspapers. But I have no specific reason to believe that the correspondent had suffered a sudden nervous breakdown and invented the story. It was - anyway - just a small part of the chronicle.

As far as the "STERN-like journalism" is concerned... well, this tv-documentary, that literally made me cry in front of the telly, and the accuracy of which I do not doubt for one single minute, made enough an impression on me and about 100 000 other Swedes to make us sign an Internet-based petition, later delievered to the Chinese embassy, protesting these devilish Chinese practices.

The point you make is of course interesting, though. Extremely interesting! Should we protest or should we not protest? Or offer "advice"? I don´t know... personally I am simply so angry and pissed off that I simply can´t help but shouting out about it, I guess.

@redpanda
I absolutely hate all the practices used in the industrialized meat production, including the horrible and absolutely unforgiveable methods for producing veal that you use as an example. Totally agree with you there! Still think the Chinese are even bigger barbarians in every step of the way and that is why I rarely miss a chance of complaining about them here at ZooChat.
 
redpanda said:
Dan, i don't disagree with you but the "civillised" west is far from guiltless. ... Journalists don't report the cruelty behind these practices because people don't keep pet chickens, crocodiles or cows - there is not the emotional attachment. !
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Allow me another comment, redpanda, just because I feel so passionate about this.

First of all, it is not quite true that journalists in The West do not report on the cruelty of industrialized meat production, is it? Here in the Nordic countries it is very common. Must be the same in The UK? (Without checking it up whlile spontaneously writing this, I seem to recall that you are British?).

Here in Scandinavia, at least, we are constantly exposed to one alarming tv feature after the other about, for instance, shocking animal transports from one part of Europe to the other - for instance cows or horses being shipped from Poland to Sicily for slaughter, without being fed or watered during the week long lorry transport.

Unfortunately, the usual result is that the journalists get politicians to say that "YES, this is an outrage! We will sharpen up the law and give more resources to the... blah-blah-blah". Usually, though, not much happens.

My point is: however bad this is - AND IT IS VERY, VERY BAD, INDEED - at least these kind of things create debate in The West. However few we might be, some of us in The West, get TOTALLY PISSED OFF and raise our voices against the barbary. Also, most people in The West - if confronted -would at least feel uncomfortable - though, arguablly - most people simply prefer to shut their eyes and ears and pretend not to know.

My impression, though, is that the Chinese (as well as the rest of the Asian peoples) would not even understand "the problem"....
 
@Dan:
There are various examples of bad, cruel animal owners (not to mention the ones that torment their pets out of sheer ignorance) in Europe I encounter on an almost daily base. But that doesn't mean that all Europeans are like that-and neither are all Chinese. "The West" will never raise an unisono disapproval against China-as there are too many different groups of interest. And China is currently in the more favourable position, being too important as a business partner. A realistic, peaceful solution with mutual obligingness will achieve more on the long run than emotional western outbursts and shouting, which will consequently result in the mentioned Chinese spiteful reactions...If you want to help, then support serious local Chinese animal right activists.

Several "serious" (and usually "touching") [German] TV documentaries in recent years have been deliberately manipulated to gain more publicity; that's common knowledge among insiders. Be careful what you say and do in front of a camera; a lot is taken out of context if needed for a publicity stunt. One example: a documentary about an alleged bad commercial husbandry of turkeys. The pics of turkeys seemingly squeezed together were a "big hit" on national television. The truth is a bit different and was revealed by the local veterinary department: young turkeys are rather curious creatures and thus crowd in front of the camera to get a look at those strange new people (aka journalists). The TV crew just used these images, while later pics and videos clearly showed that the enclosure in doubt is way larger and better than presented. The TV channel broadcasting the show later apologized for this "inaccuracy".
Emotional animal protection is one aspect of the field of animal welfare; it shouldn't become the dominant part, though.

"Here in Scandinavia, at least, we are constantly exposed to one alarming tv feature after the other about, for instance, shocking animal transports from one part of Europe to the other - for instance cows or horses being shipped from Poland to Sicily for slaughter, without being fed or watered during the week long lorry transport."
EUROPA - Animal Health & Welfare - Animal Welfare - Transport
 
We could debate the details forever. I would submit my examples and you would submit yours. But if I simply break it down to this:

I am sure that the level of animal welfare is considerably higher in The West than in China (albeit that I might as well substitute the expression "considerably higher" with "much less worse").

Would you agree or disagree?
 
Dan said:
Here in Scandinavia, at least, we are constantly exposed to one alarming tv feature after the other about, for instance, shocking animal transports from one part of Europe to the other - for instance cows or horses being shipped from Poland to Sicily for slaughter, without being fed or watered during the week long lorry transport.

Unfortunately, the usual result is that the journalists get politicians to say that "YES, this is an outrage! We will sharpen up the law and give more resources to the... blah-blah-blah". Usually, though, not much happens.

My point is: however bad this is - AND IT IS VERY, VERY BAD, INDEED - at least these kind of things create debate in The West. However few we might be, some of us in The West, get TOTALLY PISSED OFF and raise our voices against the barbary. Also, most people in The West - if confronted -would at least feel uncomfortable - though, arguablly -QUOTE]

Dan l was wondering what people were saying about this picture of the Fennex Foxes. As it was always being listed as a new comment. I guessed people were simpply commenting how cute these wonderfull intelligent animals are.

Obviously a far more interesting conversation is happening.


QUOTE]most people simply prefer to shut their eyes and ears and pretend not to know.QUOTE]


Dan do you eat meat, especially pork or eggs?

I personally belive there are more than enough people creating debate. In fact many people consider this allot.

The term arm chair sportsmen come to mind.

There are also allot of arm chair animal lovers.

When the asian community is singled out for there cruelty to animals. I cannot help butt be annoyed. I think they are more hands on and public about it. Where in the western world it is simply done behind closed doors of slaughter houses, transport companies, battery hen farms, piggeries, toy dog breeding industry, grey hound racing, horse racing.

All of these are just as bad.... as skining dogs alive. It's just not done in the public domain as it is in asia.

The western world can place itself on the moral high ground to easily!!!! We just have better media and big business hiding it!
Click to expand...
 
This is not an "examples"-yielding contest, as such is pointless. You should just be aware that emotional animal protection usually creates more harm than good - just as yelling at people, especially Chinese,


Dan said:
I am sure that the level of animal welfare is considerably higher in The West than in China (albeit that I might as well substitute the expression "considerably higher" with "much less worse").

Would you agree or disagree?
Click to expand...

On the paper, yes. Yet in reality, things differ tremendously locally (as "The West" is quite an imprecise definition...) and individually. And besides the (here all too often) scolded productive livestock sector, animal welfare is still a very, very current topic in the pet animal sector-with only a few people taking notice of this issue in the "West". It's easy to point with the fingers at others-keeping your very own record clean is another thing...
 
@Sun Wukong
When I write "The West", I am referring to USA, Canada, Europe, Australia and New Zealand. The standard geo-political definition of the term.

You answer my straight forward question a bit evasively - "On the paper, yes."

So, in reality, you do not agree with my suggestion that "The level of animal welfare is considerably higher/much less worse in the West than in China"?
 
@Dan: "Evasively"??? No, rather truthfully and honestly. Your "straight forward" question, if meant without a second agenda, rather displays a considerable amount of ignorance/naivity in regard to the everyday situation of animal welfare in the "West". The definition of the latter lacks the consideration of local differences-for example in regard to Europe,too.
 
Dan your comment, "My impression, though, is that the Chinese (as well as the rest of the Asian peoples) would not even understand "the problem"...." comes across as rather patronizing.


Many roadside Zoos in Canada are just as bad as conditions "appear" to be in this photo from China. The fact that there are a few glossy big Zoos in Canada in no way ameliorates the conditions at other institutions with lower standards.

I even live in a city (Calgary) where the most popular event, the Calgary Stampede, showcases things like calf-roping and riding inflamed bulls that have been electrocuted with cattle prods-all for the sake of entertainment! Many people from Calgary (not including myself) will even attest that the Calgary Stampede forms the basis of the local culture! Poking sticks at animals, eh?
 
To my critics:

As you can see above, I do not defend the level of animal welfare (or rather lack of it) in The West: "I absolutely hate all the practices used in the industrialized meat production, including the horrible and absolutely unforgiveable methods for producing veal that you use as an example." (In an answer to redpanda.)

Nevertheless, I am surprised at the lenghts you are willing to go to defend the Chinese and other Asian cultures in this respect. However bad it is in The West, some of the practises in Asia would be unthinkable in The West: the selling of chimps in pet stores would be stopped by the authorites, the keeping of bears in cages only big enough for them to stand up or lay down (but not to turn around) would be shut down. The skinning of dogs (or any other animal) alive in public would be an impossibility. Etc, etc, etc.

Are you guys seriously trying to pretend that there are no differences between animal welfare in The West and in The East?
 
After a quick google search...

Dan said:
the selling of chimps in pet stores would be stopped by the authorites
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Chimps used in medical research...they may not be in pet shops but the conditions which they live in are just as awful...and those in pet shops aren't put through horrific experiments:

http://a.abcnews.com/images/GMA/abc_gma_chimp_cage_080321_mn.jpg

Dan said:
the keeping of bears in cages only big enough for them to stand up or lay down (but not to turn around) would be shut down.
Click to expand...

Bear found in a cage in romania:

http://www.wspa.org.au/publicfiles/Release.jpg

Dan said:
The skinning of dogs (or any other animal) alive in public would be an impossibility.
Click to expand...

Dog Starves to Death Abandoned in Closet - PETITION | Pet Lovers Tips - For The Love of the Dog

Isn't that just as bad...




Perhaps things happen behind closed doors here, but they still happen so I shall repeat what I have said before:

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
 
Ah.... redpanda - I can only repeat what I have already written:

"Nevertheless, I am surprised at the lenghts you are willing to go to defend the Chinese and other Asian cultures in this respect. However bad it is in The West, some of the practises in Asia would be unthinkable in The West..."

Again: some of you guys here at ZooChat are for some reason determined to defend the cruelty towards animals in the East. I am surprised and disappointed, but I understand that I will have to live with this.
 
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