Mai Thai
Well-Known Member
They both announced it to a huge group of people but I will have the post deleted anyways. Also the his name was not Eric it was another person.
Cincinnati Zoo and Botanical Garden Cincinnati Zoo and Botanical Garden News 2021
- Thread starter Mai Thai
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When did they tell you this? Do you have a specific date? Might help me find out what this announcement was.
I don't know if any of the speculation is true (I feel like the elephant acquisition part is, at least). It seems a bit silly to move the giraffe herd out of Africa and into Elephant Reserve without good reason. Giraffes have a much newer and more species-specific barn where they are right now. I'm not sure what else they'd put there, but I don't see them punting on it. It's not even 10 years old and you leave it in favor of one of the oldest buildings in the zoo?
Not overly excited about the gibbon outcome, either. The islands were my favorite part of the zoo when I was a kid, but their time has passed. There's no reason at all to add more gibbons once the siamangs are moved. The islands are small and not exactly appropriate for gibbons by modern standards. If anything, it's time to consider doing something entirely different with the area. Does the zoo really need 5 different gibbon exhibits? Really? In 10 years the zoo will be half populated with only gibbons and penguins. Boring.
Not overly excited about the gibbon outcome, either. The islands were my favorite part of the zoo when I was a kid, but their time has passed. There's no reason at all to add more gibbons once the siamangs are moved. The islands are small and not exactly appropriate for gibbons by modern standards. If anything, it's time to consider doing something entirely different with the area. Does the zoo really need 5 different gibbon exhibits? Really? In 10 years the zoo will be half populated with only gibbons and penguins. Boring.
The current giraffe barn is 2,100 sq feet. Its puny. I can't think of many zoos with smaller barns than that. I mean I am surprised it even meets the AZA's standards. As most of us can agree the Africa expansion was not the most successful area. Yes it has some nice sections like the wild dog and the hoofstock yards but everything else is kind of the bare minimum. So it doesn't shock me how bad its aged. I mean the hippo exhibit is a downright disgrace (3,500 sq ft) given that its only a few years old and home to the worlds most famous hippo.
Meanwhile the elephant house covers 11,500 sq feet. Its not even comparable. So if the giraffes were to move they would likely have an equal sized outdoor yard and meanwhile have a barn multiple times larger than it is now with better winter viewing. You could also hold some new species in there as part of a mixed-species exhibit. And I doubt the renovations would even need to be that substantial (in comparison to the other projects they are embarking on).
Edit: For extra context the 1837 giraffe barn at London Zoo is slightly larger than the current Cincinnati barn built.
Meanwhile the elephant house covers 11,500 sq feet. Its not even comparable. So if the giraffes were to move they would likely have an equal sized outdoor yard and meanwhile have a barn multiple times larger than it is now with better winter viewing. You could also hold some new species in there as part of a mixed-species exhibit. And I doubt the renovations would even need to be that substantial (in comparison to the other projects they are embarking on).
Edit: For extra context the 1837 giraffe barn at London Zoo is slightly larger than the current Cincinnati barn built.
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I think you should reserve that talk as in person only courtesy and not something to publicize before the deal is through and the elephant arrivals are well on their way.
Strange to see it announced to a large group when the actual elephants are no where to be seen as yet.
Would it be feasible to expand the current giraffe barn in some surrounding area? On Maps there seems to be a good area to expand the barn in such a way that is nonobtrusive and provides "more home to roam", so to speak.
As for what would happen once Sabu-Hit, Jati, Mai Thai and Princess Schottzie hoof it on to Elephant Trek, I've always been of the mind that Elephant Reserve should become an Asian Rainforest Aviary with ground dwelling animals like Malayan tapir, Indian crested porcupine and/or lowland anoa, and birds such as Azure-winged magpie, Bali mynah, Javan pond-heron, Metallic starling, Minandao bleeding-heart, Spotged whistling-duck, etc. Gibbons can even move into the aviary (albeit in a non walk-through portion) and the current islands would make a pretty good spot for lemurs if connected to one another, or maybe some squirrel monkeys?
And one last point about Fiona and Bibi's current space, I do have an idea that could actually be feasible (and they may already have the infrastructure for): adding a gate into the neighboring African painted dog habitat and fortifying the barriers in such a way that when the dogs are in for the night, the hippos can go in and graze!
It's more hopeful to speculate on what can actually done with the zoo's space realistically rather than fantasizing about some pipe dream of a exhibit that'll never happen
.Assuming all the animals go in for the night, there's not really an option for the hippos to be outside, much less go into a neighboring exhibit. At this point from a husbandry level they really should just consider building a better exhibit (this could've been considered by not making such an exhibit in the first place
).
Mai Thai
Well-Known Member
I am very sorry for sharing this information. I am working to get the post deleted. Again I am very sorry.
I learned this information at a zoo camp I went to last week
That's all well and good, but I'd still be much more in the camp of moving the rhinos out of their current holding in rhino reserve and into the elephant house. It's ready made for them. Their yards in the Veldt, even if merged (likely IMHO) are awfully small. To boot, their indoor holding is allegedly (I've never seen it with my own eyes) rather dark and underground, and yes, small. I'm a lot more okay with the current giraffe situation than I am with the rhinos if it's a debate.
I actually visited the zoo today with this thread in mind. There's a decent amount of unused area around the elephant house. A decent chunk was used to exhibit animals at one point. It would be nice to see them merge the two elephant yards in front of the current entrance and include the current unused space whatever the species occupying it may be.
I mean sadly this is the Olympics of inadequate large mammal exhibits: giraffes, elephants, hippos, and rhino. At least 2 of this exhibits are older, but its digraceful that two I mentioned aren't. I may seem critical of the zoo but many of there projects in the last decade or so have been short sighted (Night Hunters for example). So now the zoo is faced with the need of updating the old and bettering the new.
I agree the rhino renovation is going to be inadequate. I also believe the giraffe status quo is the same. This is especially important given that its climate is fairly cold compared to zoos say where I live where the same indoor space would be used minimally for climate reasons. I don't think there is any great solution, as the zoo has put themselves in a corner with shortsighted decisions. And a master plan that besides what will likely be a great elephant exhibit, will fail to fix much of the zoos outdated exhibit and aging infrastructure (reptile house, bear row, night hunters).
Edit: Remember also that if the giraffes move that exhibit could easily hold say the zebra allowing an expansion of the rhino space in the current area.
Thoughts on my visit today: My 8-year old son is all about some Roo Valley, so that's where we went immediately upon entering. The good of it was the penguin exhibit which was absolutely top notch. Outside of that it was a bit depressing. It was a giant grass yard with some roos hiding in a barn. The worst was seeing a zipline playground constructed in the area that once housed a breeding pair of Sumatran rhinoceroses. How the mighty have fallen. I almost paid the 16 dollars just to get through the obstacle course and check out the old rhino quarters up close, but passed.
Random ideas: The zoo doesn't need to bring back polar bears. They're a poor candidate for captivity to begin with, and the bear line needs to be made over into something completely different when the elderly Andean bear passes. I'd err on the side of a Jungle Trails expansion. The bamboo already reaches into the walk path of the slope. Maybe they could build a bigger clouded leopard enclosure with some of it (finally). It would fit the rainforest theme.
If we're really going to spitball here (I am), here's a thought to completely disregard: The zoo obviously want to create a parking area (garage) in the area across from the current lot on Vine and Erkenbrecher. Money is always an issue, but if this comes to be, my question is what happens to the current lot? Will this become animal space as the front lot did with the Africa expansion? Total shot in the dark here, but there's a precedent. I'll add that Gorilla World is badly outdated and it would be really great to see a brand new gorilla complex build in that footprint. I'll be honest and say that I would rather have let the elephants go and used the back lot for a new gorilla exhibit/ African Forest complex.
Random ideas: The zoo doesn't need to bring back polar bears. They're a poor candidate for captivity to begin with, and the bear line needs to be made over into something completely different when the elderly Andean bear passes. I'd err on the side of a Jungle Trails expansion. The bamboo already reaches into the walk path of the slope. Maybe they could build a bigger clouded leopard enclosure with some of it (finally). It would fit the rainforest theme.
If we're really going to spitball here (I am), here's a thought to completely disregard: The zoo obviously want to create a parking area (garage) in the area across from the current lot on Vine and Erkenbrecher. Money is always an issue, but if this comes to be, my question is what happens to the current lot? Will this become animal space as the front lot did with the Africa expansion? Total shot in the dark here, but there's a precedent. I'll add that Gorilla World is badly outdated and it would be really great to see a brand new gorilla complex build in that footprint. I'll be honest and say that I would rather have let the elephants go and used the back lot for a new gorilla exhibit/ African Forest complex.
Yeah, that's what I think too as far as the current giraffe exhibit goes. It will be zebra or maybe okapi in an effort to clear out space in Rhino Reserve. Zebra make sense, and you could add antelope if you wanted to, I suppose.
I think the Reptile House is okay outside of the gator pit. I feel like it's on the way out fairly soon either way. They've been spreading the reptile collection around the zoo for quite some time now, and the idea of a centralized reptile building is becoming obsolete.
My thoughts on the Bear Line have been stated more than once, so no need to beat a dead horse.
I wouldn't say that. If the zoo were to come out and say that I would say it was a cop out. Nearly every major zoo has one in this country, with very few exceptions (Omaha being a big one). In recent years we have seen plenty of zoos invest in them Buffalo, Fort Worth, Atlanta, Knoxville). While plenty of zoos have plans for new reptile houses (Houston, Dallas). Having a reptile house is really more efficient from an animal care perspective and also often hosts many of these zoos more important in-situ conservation projects.
Oh, I'm a reptile person to the core. I'd love nothing more than to see a 20 million dollar reptile building on the agenda. I just don't see it as a priority for Cincinnati. It's literally the oldest building in the zoo. If it were a big priority, it would have been done a decade ago. Meanwhile, there are reptiles housed in 6 different areas of the zoo.
Man, it seems many have turned sour on Cincinnati recently. I had no idea the giraffe barn was so tiny. I always thought Milwaukees giraffe barn that dated back to the 50s was small, yet that building is about the twice the size of Cincis relatively recent development. It is genuinely puzzling as to why they thought that would be acceptable. Then again this the same place responsible for hippo cove. The architecture may look a bit baffling, but I would be inclined to agree that moving the giraffes here would be the best option. That doesn't make it any less baffling that an exhibit only about 10 years old is already outdated.
Elephant Trek looks like it will be a fantastic development, but besides that the future looks rather uncertain at Cincinnati. @Moebelle made a comment a little while ago claiming the zoo was going the direction of a glorified children's zoo. I wasn't sure what that meant originally, but I now see what is in reference here. The rope course on top of the former Sumatran rhino yard is rather symbolic of that direction, don't you think?
As an aside, does anyone know if Elephant Trek will be one large yard or several yards? I thought the latter but the rendering appear to show one large space. I wonder how the zoo plans to merge the existing herd with Dublin herd, not to mention future males, if thats the case.
Elephant Trek looks like it will be a fantastic development, but besides that the future looks rather uncertain at Cincinnati. @Moebelle made a comment a little while ago claiming the zoo was going the direction of a glorified children's zoo. I wasn't sure what that meant originally, but I now see what is in reference here. The rope course on top of the former Sumatran rhino yard is rather symbolic of that direction, don't you think?
As an aside, does anyone know if Elephant Trek will be one large yard or several yards? I thought the latter but the rendering appear to show one large space. I wonder how the zoo plans to merge the existing herd with Dublin herd, not to mention future males, if thats the case.
This is something I have actually thought about alot recently. I can understand the reasoning for many zoos wanted a dedicated Herpetarium such as the ones you mentioned above, but I personally like seeing various herps spread throughout a zoo. I think having smaller reptiles and birds alongside the more charismatic megafauna help create a more complete representation of the environment an exhibit complex is themed around, showing how diverse different parts of the world are. In most reptile houses, many species except the exceptionally popular ones - gators, crocs, komodos, large snakes - are often glossed over as to the general public it just looks like lizard after lizard in similar looking exhibits. Same applies to birds, albeit to a lesser extent.
To Cincinnati's defense I have seen smaller giraffe barns. Cameron Park's comes to mind but the Texas climate is a lot different than Ohio's and also that barns 30 years old. Personally from photos I have always thought Milwaukee's barn looks dated aesthetically but its fine for the species.
I believe elephant trek is going to have 2 large on-exhibit areas. I don't really have issues with ropes courses. Zoos need to earn money, its just the way it is but I do think Cincinnati's not moving in a great direction bar elephants and hasn't for a while.
I understand both sides of this reptile argument. I personally am a fan of zoo that walks and chews its gum at the same time. Meaning zoos that have designated space for a herp collection but also have some herps spread around. Great examples of this being the Bronx Zoo and Cameron Park Zoo. If you are gonna have a reptile house though you have to make it interesting. A great example being the review I just posted of Dallas Zoo. An amazing collection in an old building with sterile hallways. Guess what guest retention time is low and people end up skipping many species. Meanwhile across town Fort Worth's got the best house in the country. It mixes in those crowd pleasers with less pleasing species, but also mixes in fish in many cases to add interest. Mixed species exhibits often become treasure hunts for children especially. The exhibits are not cookie cutter and the hallway winds around. All of these architectural decisions make it an exhibit far more enjoyable to visitors, while it has a similar collection to Dallas.
The Cincinnati Zoo was willing to expand the viewing deck of Giraffe Ridge many years ago, in addition to a presumed expansion of the yard. Modifying existing exhibits despite being relatively new is nothing new for Cincinnati. Additions such as a "pride rock" in the lion habitat, an artificial tree in one of the tiger yards and the snow leopard habitat in in Cat Canyon, among others have been prevalent throughout the "More Home to Roam" campaign. Because giraffes naturally thematically tie to Africa, an expansion of the barn is necessary as well as feasible. It could be under the premise that the zoo would want to expand its giraffe herd, following the motif of "More Home to Roam". (What potential is there for expanding the Hippo Cove area as well?)
As for the whole reptile house argument, if a zoo wants to present reptiles in an engaging way, they need to do away with long, nondescript hallways. Fort Worth went amazingly creative with MOLA, Los Angeles has the LAIR, Atlanta has Scaly, Slimy, Spectacular!, and now Zoo Knoxville has the ARC. Ed Maruska, Cincinnati's former director has expressed want for a new reptile building, however he couldn't find enough people/higher-ups who would be interested in such a project.
Expansions of habitats aren’t the same as adding some enrichment to exhibits though.
Interesting about Maruska, though as others have stated, the reptile house is alright outside of the alligator pond. Reptiles at the zoo, in my opinion, are just a matter of keeping the right animals in the right sized enclosures, which they don’t lack.
An important question is why do so many of the zoos newer exhibits need improvements so soon after being built. The answer to which is unlike many zoos the zoo is not building with a good level of foresight. Also do these changes have much if any impact on welfare?
I think a lot of the argument regarding this zoo on this site was premised around the fact that this more than other zoos is a zoo built for visitors, where animal welfare often is deprioritized. Expanding a giraffe deck does nothing for its inhabitants. Fiona's exhibit looks amazing for visitors, there is no debate but it was inadequate the day it was built and could have been doubled in size if not for crowd pleasing meerkats and a playground. The classic example is the cat house. The zoo was basically like you know if we turn the lights off people won't realize how bad the exhibits are for the cats.
Also if the giraffes move to elephant house one could simply expand what area is "Africa." Its arbitrary anyways but it is next to the existing complex. Zoogeographic theming is fine but we can't let it stand in the way of basic welfare.
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Mai Thai
Well-Known Member
The zoo plans to have three large outdoor yards and I believe the zoo plans to mix the Dublin herd with their current elephants.