If Besancon hasn't got enough room for lions and tigers and wants to move them to zoos that have enough space, surely that's a good thing. Providing larger enclosures for big cats would probably lead to a reduced number of species. Besancon is one of only 2 ZTL zoos with steppe mice and 4 with Rhone strebers and souffias. It's not as if lions and tigers are uncommon in zoos.
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Yes, but it is also not as if steppe mice and rhone strebers draw equal attention to Joe Common as tigers and lions...
However: I haven't been to Besançon yet, so I'm not able to judge about the predator enclosures. Maybe one big cat species will be enough, maybe there is room to create (a) better exhibit(s)...What do our French experts / locals think about it?
However: I haven't been to Besançon yet, so I'm not able to judge about the predator enclosures. Maybe one big cat species will be enough, maybe there is room to create (a) better exhibit(s)...What do our French experts / locals think about it?
I get tired of hearing about the 'Joe Commons' of this world. If they had their way every zoo would be full of meerkats, lions, tigers and other ABC animals and the animals that have been saved from extinction by zoos wouldn't exist. I believe the staff at Bescancon have made the right decision. I have been to zoos where big cats have been kept in small, concrete enclosures with bars at the front. That is not good enough. If the lions and tigers are going to be better off at another zoo, that is good for them. If the primates that are in small enclosures can move into the former big cat enclosures, that is also good for the primates. I doubt if steppe mice and Rhone strebers take up much space, but as very few ZTL zoos keep them, they are a reason to visit Besancon. Why go there to see lions and tigers?
I can see your point, but we are not the general public are we? But - knowing the general public and by direct experience - a zoo does need a few megafauna drawcards to be economically viable. To remove all carnivores from Besancon and the relatively small space that the zoo is will most definitely impact visitor numbers. A the general public might go elsewhere: hence my plea to think outside the box and not just proclaim - by a non expert administration individual - that the zoo should no longer hold carnivores and/or primates. That decision should be with the zoo management and how to take things forward. Now the mayor is cutting both ways in being .... the - rather questionable - decision maker for zoo and general public - as well as being the block on developing a future vision for the Citadelle (without some carnivores and primates).
@lintworm, I was/am aware of the size of the Citadelle. What I meant with my quips is the above reasoning. What future a future. Who should decide (and I do not think that an administration deciding before zoo management is a good thing) what, how and why fore. What appeal now, how to embrace and expand upon it.
Hello Kifaru Bwana
Besancon has a few fairly large species (see https://www.zootierliste.de/en/map.php?showzoo=10000351), some of which are quite unusual and endangered. Surely, the directors have thought about the situation about losing lions and tigers and have made their decision accordingly. They have considered the welfare of the cats as being more important than the income they may lose. That is their decision. I agree.
According to ZTL, Besancon has yellow mongooses, so there will still be carnivores after the big cats leave. Is there anything to stop the zoo from obtaining more carnivore species to occupy some of the space? The zoo also has 20 species of primates at the moment, some of which are endangered and relatively uncommon in zoos.
When I was a young boy, I suppose I didn't really think much about seeing a lot of species in relatively small, impoverished enclosures. Now, I am more bothered about the conditions animals live in and whether they have enough space and stimulation.
Besancon has limited space. Surely, it would be better to have a relatively large collection of smaller species, rather than a small collection of large species that can be seen in several zoos and are not part of reintroduction programmes.
Besancon has a few fairly large species (see https://www.zootierliste.de/en/map.php?showzoo=10000351), some of which are quite unusual and endangered. Surely, the directors have thought about the situation about losing lions and tigers and have made their decision accordingly. They have considered the welfare of the cats as being more important than the income they may lose. That is their decision. I agree.
According to ZTL, Besancon has yellow mongooses, so there will still be carnivores after the big cats leave. Is there anything to stop the zoo from obtaining more carnivore species to occupy some of the space? The zoo also has 20 species of primates at the moment, some of which are endangered and relatively uncommon in zoos.
When I was a young boy, I suppose I didn't really think much about seeing a lot of species in relatively small, impoverished enclosures. Now, I am more bothered about the conditions animals live in and whether they have enough space and stimulation.
Besancon has limited space. Surely, it would be better to have a relatively large collection of smaller species, rather than a small collection of large species that can be seen in several zoos and are not part of reintroduction programmes.
La Chaux-de-Fonds (https://www.zootierliste.de/en/map.php?showzoo=10001104) has a mixed collection and no big cats.
Although Kifaru Bwana has given a reply that covers my thoughts/opinion already, I like to complete it:
It is a fact that not zoonerds but Joe Commons (no matter if you like this claim or not) are responsible for the financial surviving of a zoo. And it is also a fact, that big cats like tigers draw (much) more attention then yellow mangooses, although both are carnivores.
That doesn't mean we should renounce to exhibit (smaller) animals of general lower interrest. But it should not be an "instead" but rather an "and".
As I wrote before, I do not know Citadelle Besançon and its room/size situation. But looking at the point, that I have seen chances to get more space (because of oversized concrete deco elements, car wracks, moats instead of windows, unused pepple or gras yards etc.) in every of the almost 200 zoological institutions I have visited, I'm very confident that I would find such room in Besançon as well (Although I must confess that this will be probably more difficult here because of its old and I presume mostly protected structure).
It is a fact that not zoonerds but Joe Commons (no matter if you like this claim or not) are responsible for the financial surviving of a zoo. And it is also a fact, that big cats like tigers draw (much) more attention then yellow mangooses, although both are carnivores.
That doesn't mean we should renounce to exhibit (smaller) animals of general lower interrest. But it should not be an "instead" but rather an "and".
As I wrote before, I do not know Citadelle Besançon and its room/size situation. But looking at the point, that I have seen chances to get more space (because of oversized concrete deco elements, car wracks, moats instead of windows, unused pepple or gras yards etc.) in every of the almost 200 zoological institutions I have visited, I'm very confident that I would find such room in Besançon as well (Although I must confess that this will be probably more difficult here because of its old and I presume mostly protected structure).
But has a Brown bear exhibit...
I did notice that La Chaux-de-Fonds has brown bears, but the discussion was about big cats in Besancon.
When I visited London Zoo with my family, we tended to go to the same exhibits each time. I regret not visiting the small mammal houses, as my father had no real interest in them. He was probably a 'Joe Common' in this regard. While I accept that many zoo visitors like to see ABCs, I've noticed them showing more interest in an active XYZ animal than an inactive ABC animal. Lions spend about 20 hours a day resting and tend to be more active when the zoo is closed. Giving them massive enclosures may benefit them during the night but doesn't benefit visitors by day. If they see the lions, the lions probably aren't doing much. Do visitors learn much seeing tigers pace up and down if they see them at all? Similarly, giant pandas may be popular but they don't tend to do much. I wonder how much Joe Commons learn from seeing those animals. Surely getting an active XYZ species and using educational material to interest visitors could lead to more Zoonerds and more interesting zoo collections. On a different note, there are comments about the collection at Underground Reptiles. One of the listed animals is a Paradise tree snake. I have seen the same species, or an Oriental tree snake, at zoos. Wouldn't those species attract more interest if they were listed as 'flying' snakes? The zoos could show videos of the snake gliding in the wild. I like the idea of large enclosures for gliding animals that could show their skills to visitors. There are zoos, such as Burgers, with the imagination to do this. Unfortunately, the marketing departments of some zoos seem to cater for the 'Joe Commons' of this world.
Yes, but big bears need (at least) as much space as big cats...
I'am agree here partially, but let me say that on the other hand active lions draw again more people then active mangooses. So in the same situation, the lions "win" again. Beside that, also many of the smaller mammals are less active during daytime.
What people learn from zoo animals (or not) is another chapter as well as how zoos could "sell" lesser known animals better (absolutely agree).
Which enclosure at Burgers allows GLIDING animals to show their skills?
I agree that many people like seeing active lions, but I have seen people disappointed by seeing lions they think are 'lazy'. Many people like seeing active meerkats, which are mongooses. I'm surprised that Besancon hasn't got meerkats, but I think too many zoos have this species. Unfortunately. nocturnal exhibits are becoming less common. I remember the 'Bushbaby House' in London Zoo's 'Children's Zoo', which was a pioneer in nocturnal exhibits. I agree that many people think sleeping animals are boring; unfortunately, I reckon a big black-and-white cushion could be used to replace a giant panda in some zoos. I've seen many people showing no further interest in an animal after they have located it. Surely, there should be a balance in zoos. France has a zoo dedicated to cats and Besancon doesn't need to keep big cats if it can't keep them properly. I went to Brescia Zoo, which was housed in a castle, and the big animals were not housed properly. Hopefully, they were moved to better conditions before the zoo closed down.
As far as I know, no zoos have enclosures for gliding animals to show their skills. What I said was that Burgers is the kind of zoo that would have the imagination to create one. I'm sorry if I didn't put this across properly.
As far as I know, no zoos have enclosures for gliding animals to show their skills. What I said was that Burgers is the kind of zoo that would have the imagination to create one. I'm sorry if I didn't put this across properly.
@Antoine and other French ZC foresters, can you please explain the holding and organisational structure for the Citadelle. What role does the Municipality have, if any all?
@Dear all: My prime argument remains that decisions on zoo collections and animal husbandry, management and exhibits should be with zoo management and not an outside - non expert - interest or public body. Most discourse now goes into the direction of the actual large species in Citadelle, which is ignoring the main argument and reservations I have with what has been said publicly by Besancon's mayor. These reservations have not been met by any of the on-topic resultant discourse I have seen till date. I know US/Canadian examples in Pittsburgh and Toronto what dire consequences this can have.
I hope @Antoine or others might shed some more light on this!
BTW: Those that keep arguing for smaller species, you are barking up the wrong tree. I am already a convert (as one can see from my many contributions in threads here and there. Plus I do believe in diverse zoo animal collections - which means big, small, beautiful tiny, large fascinating and most of all the Little Brown Jobs. What bores me to bits is a large safari park with only large megavertebrates or a zoo that only shows up mammals (and not a lot else). I love diversity over quantity and quality over quantity. But this is really beside my point on decision making and who is in charge ....
@Dear all: My prime argument remains that decisions on zoo collections and animal husbandry, management and exhibits should be with zoo management and not an outside - non expert - interest or public body. Most discourse now goes into the direction of the actual large species in Citadelle, which is ignoring the main argument and reservations I have with what has been said publicly by Besancon's mayor. These reservations have not been met by any of the on-topic resultant discourse I have seen till date. I know US/Canadian examples in Pittsburgh and Toronto what dire consequences this can have.
I hope @Antoine or others might shed some more light on this!
BTW: Those that keep arguing for smaller species, you are barking up the wrong tree. I am already a convert (as one can see from my many contributions in threads here and there. Plus I do believe in diverse zoo animal collections - which means big, small, beautiful tiny, large fascinating and most of all the Little Brown Jobs. What bores me to bits is a large safari park with only large megavertebrates or a zoo that only shows up mammals (and not a lot else). I love diversity over quantity and quality over quantity. But this is really beside my point on decision making and who is in charge ....
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I must admit that I find this comment.
Why are people arguing for smaller species 'barking up the wrong tree?' Especially as you admit that you are a convert and find zoos with only large megavertebrates boring.
I like seeing some large mammals, such as giant eland (Los Angeles), 4 species of whale (Duisburg), markhor (London etc), Jentink's duiker (Berlin Tierpark) etc. I also like seeing kiangs, snow leopards, orang-utans and takins. I don't like seeing them in small, bare enclosures, where they can barely move. I am also not keen on seeing the same species in many zoos, whether they are large mammals like lions and tigers or smaller mammals like meerkats. There are many large mammals that are rarely kept in zoos that could help increase their numbers.
Besancon seems to have quite a mixed collection and shouldn't keep large mammals in inadequate enclosures. It should encourage people to be interested in the animals it has got, as should all zoos.
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Besancon exhibits must fit by visual appearance and space into the walls and moats of the castle. In this strange situation, they are really doing a very good job.
Lions and tigers have relatively good exhibits. I would welcome first some more climbing structures for baboons, which live in the old moat, and removing several smallest aviaries and monkey cages (some parrots and colobus). Are there any plans what might replace the big cats?
Lions and tigers have relatively good exhibits. I would welcome first some more climbing structures for baboons, which live in the old moat, and removing several smallest aviaries and monkey cages (some parrots and colobus). Are there any plans what might replace the big cats?
Woo, I was out yesterday (in La Flèche !) and find so many messages today !
Well, I will try to answer some questions :
- I suppose Citadelle is property of the city and the land is rent to Museum for part. That why the Mayor can speak about what he wants or not + he is leading the future of the city for six years and can say what future citizens want (it's not the best reasons but I heard these).
- there are some difficulties with the presence of a zoo in a classified fortress for the UNESCO so it was discussed to move the zoo in another land, out of the Citadelle. Of course, it's an expensive idea and there is no money for it.
- the lions and tigers exhibit are not good. Not the worst but not good too. The same with guinea baboons. For the baboons, a refurbishment is on the way but I am not sure the baboons will come back (they told the contrary).
For my part I consider animal welfare is as important as conservation. The Museum did a great job with smaller species like insects, fishes.. but the Citadelle land does not fit big animals nor primates that must live in arboreal exhibits.
If they want to keep them, okay, but they leave the Citadelle. We don't need to held tigers and lions in every zoo. There is enough in the whole zoo community and we can gain space with stopping white tigers/lions and other hybrid panthers...
But the story is not finished yet. Let's see what will be decided in the next months.
Well, I will try to answer some questions :
- I suppose Citadelle is property of the city and the land is rent to Museum for part. That why the Mayor can speak about what he wants or not + he is leading the future of the city for six years and can say what future citizens want (it's not the best reasons but I heard these).
- there are some difficulties with the presence of a zoo in a classified fortress for the UNESCO so it was discussed to move the zoo in another land, out of the Citadelle. Of course, it's an expensive idea and there is no money for it.
- the lions and tigers exhibit are not good. Not the worst but not good too. The same with guinea baboons. For the baboons, a refurbishment is on the way but I am not sure the baboons will come back (they told the contrary).
For my part I consider animal welfare is as important as conservation. The Museum did a great job with smaller species like insects, fishes.. but the Citadelle land does not fit big animals nor primates that must live in arboreal exhibits.
If they want to keep them, okay, but they leave the Citadelle. We don't need to held tigers and lions in every zoo. There is enough in the whole zoo community and we can gain space with stopping white tigers/lions and other hybrid panthers...
But the story is not finished yet. Let's see what will be decided in the next months.
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Well then, I visited zoo Besancon today. Together with Beauval and Doue, I feel like I picked the cherries out of the French zoo tree this summer. Not that Doue or Besancon belong to the best French zoos (tbh, I wouldn’t know), but I do believe they both offer something different then any other European Zoo.
As many would know, a small part of the towering Citadel above the city of Besancon has quite a handfull of enclosures scattered among them. Some people might say that calling it a zoo is stretching it, but let’s not nitpick.
The first enclosure is the moat you cross into the Citadel, that has Gelada’s in them. Large, but pretty bare, although the gelada’s might not mind the lack of climbing structures.
Most enclosures are grouped together at the far end of the Citadel. I think we hit Besancon on a bit of an off-day. The zoo does not have that many exhibits and we found a few empty. A small exhibit between the lions and the tigers (looks like meerkats, mongooses or armadillos had been in them), the large aviary and the large enclosure at the end of the monkey-row (probably the baboons) all had signs they were being refurbished and were empty. The barbary sheep, european hedgehog and fat rat were a no-show and what looked like the second lion exhibit was also empty (it has a lot of European lynx information on it’s side, but it was directly linked to the lion exhibit so I guess it’s for the lions). The cameroon sheep (1 animal), lions (1 male), phillippine spotted deer (1 male) were also not sparkling with activity. In a quiet corner we found the red kangaroo’s mixed with a couple of yellow-footed rockwallaby’s and on the other side of the citadel we found a nice new aviary-style exhibit for... yellow footed rock wallaby.
The park left me with itching hands. First of all, many exhibits were ok, but not for the species that were In them. A very decent set of smaller aviary’s looked fine, but not with green-winged, military and scarlet macaw in them. Or Javan hornbill. A couple of arassari’s, parrotbills, even lovebirds would have done fine, but surely not the largest birds you could find?
Same with the monkey cages. If you are going to create a box-style hardwire cage of a few meters each way, why stick siamangs, colobus or golden-cheeked gibbons in them? Plant them well and shift the collection of south american small monkeys over into these cages and you’re set. Oh, and cover some of the walkways to take some of the mirroring away, the biggest monkey I saw all day was ME.
I also feel the stunning backdrop (a UNESCO world heritage site) could be incorporated much better into the enclosures.
The best stuf was actually set a little away from the group of enclosures. First, a small nocturnal house showed quite a few rat/mice/vole species and I found it well done. Second, the aquarium with local fish was very well made, the insectarium (and frogs) on the first floor was also very well done and I would have enjoyed it a lot if my daughter (1,5 years) hadn’t run out of steam by then and started tearing down the place, one paludarium at a time.
I also think I’m going to start a business equipping children’s playgrounds in France. After Doue, I found my second customer already
All in all, a mixed bag. Glad to have seen it though, a real oddity in the zoo world. And with a little spit and polish, the little zoo could be made into a real asset for the city and the citadel. It wouldn’t even cost a fortune.
As many would know, a small part of the towering Citadel above the city of Besancon has quite a handfull of enclosures scattered among them. Some people might say that calling it a zoo is stretching it, but let’s not nitpick.
The first enclosure is the moat you cross into the Citadel, that has Gelada’s in them. Large, but pretty bare, although the gelada’s might not mind the lack of climbing structures.
Most enclosures are grouped together at the far end of the Citadel. I think we hit Besancon on a bit of an off-day. The zoo does not have that many exhibits and we found a few empty. A small exhibit between the lions and the tigers (looks like meerkats, mongooses or armadillos had been in them), the large aviary and the large enclosure at the end of the monkey-row (probably the baboons) all had signs they were being refurbished and were empty. The barbary sheep, european hedgehog and fat rat were a no-show and what looked like the second lion exhibit was also empty (it has a lot of European lynx information on it’s side, but it was directly linked to the lion exhibit so I guess it’s for the lions). The cameroon sheep (1 animal), lions (1 male), phillippine spotted deer (1 male) were also not sparkling with activity. In a quiet corner we found the red kangaroo’s mixed with a couple of yellow-footed rockwallaby’s and on the other side of the citadel we found a nice new aviary-style exhibit for... yellow footed rock wallaby.
The park left me with itching hands. First of all, many exhibits were ok, but not for the species that were In them. A very decent set of smaller aviary’s looked fine, but not with green-winged, military and scarlet macaw in them. Or Javan hornbill. A couple of arassari’s, parrotbills, even lovebirds would have done fine, but surely not the largest birds you could find?
Same with the monkey cages. If you are going to create a box-style hardwire cage of a few meters each way, why stick siamangs, colobus or golden-cheeked gibbons in them? Plant them well and shift the collection of south american small monkeys over into these cages and you’re set. Oh, and cover some of the walkways to take some of the mirroring away, the biggest monkey I saw all day was ME.
I also feel the stunning backdrop (a UNESCO world heritage site) could be incorporated much better into the enclosures.
The best stuf was actually set a little away from the group of enclosures. First, a small nocturnal house showed quite a few rat/mice/vole species and I found it well done. Second, the aquarium with local fish was very well made, the insectarium (and frogs) on the first floor was also very well done and I would have enjoyed it a lot if my daughter (1,5 years) hadn’t run out of steam by then and started tearing down the place, one paludarium at a time.
I also think I’m going to start a business equipping children’s playgrounds in France. After Doue, I found my second customer already
All in all, a mixed bag. Glad to have seen it though, a real oddity in the zoo world. And with a little spit and polish, the little zoo could be made into a real asset for the city and the citadel. It wouldn’t even cost a fortune.
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The Whipsnade Forum reported that female Amur Tiger Naya moved from Whipsnade to Besançon in late September. Seems an odd move following the Mayor of Besançon's announcement in August.
The male Tiger currently at Besançon has health issues and cannot move to another zoo. The female from Whipsnade will be a companion for him