Folly Farm Coming in 2014

I do hope they manage to get some African lions of pure sub-species rather than the generic lions everybody else has .
 
Bele said:
I do hope they manage to get some African lions of pure sub-species rather than the generic lions everybody else has .
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I would suggest that if a pure sub-species were available, it would make more sense for Folly Farm to take another zoo's generic lions & let the pure ones go to an experienced lion holding/breeding zoo.
 
pipaluk said:
I would suggest that if a pure sub-species were available, it would make more sense for Folly Farm to take another zoo's generic lions & let the pure ones go to an experienced lion holding/breeding zoo.
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That's a bit patronising, who's to say Folly Farm don't have the necessary expertise? It's not like Lions have complex husbandry needs or are particularly tricky to breed.
 
Shorts said:
That's a bit patronising, who's to say Folly Farm don't have the necessary expertise? It's not like Lions have complex husbandry needs or are particularly tricky to breed.
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Crikey if this annoucement gets that response what would them getting Rhino get??

I know that I would trust them with either species,they are certainly more respected within the zoo community than there near neigbours Manor House are!!!
 
The term Generic Lion keeps popping up in different safari parks and zoo threads on here What is the reason for them being generic? I know in breeding but what is the dominant species in the bloodline? Also are all the captive populations of Asian lions pure bred?
 
zoogiraffe said:
Crikey if this annoucement gets that response what would them getting Rhino get??

I know that I would trust them with either species,they are certainly more respected within the zoo community than there near neigbours Manor House are!!!
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The point I was making was that another poster's point/implication that Folly Farm might only be good enough for generic Lions (and not to be trusted with pure ones) was a little insulting to them given their growth and obvious abilities shown in recent years.
 
Well, I think Folly Farm had a significant number of sub/adult giraffe deaths as a percentage of individuals they've housed there, given that this is not some kind of retirement facility for these animals.

If trying out husbandry and breeding techniques with more abundant species/subspecies/generics first is good enough for Durrell Wildlife, I would say its probably not beneath Folly Farm to also do this. But I don't think this is what this acquisition is about. I would have been very surprised if they had been considered (or are on the list for) Asiatic lions (let alone pure African subspecies), and so I think this is a strategic attempt to expand in the face of competition from Manor House, and possibly laying the groundwork to be allocated other big cat species further down the line that are of conservation value individually.

Folly Farm may well be popular within the zoo community, but then, as a fairly nascent zoological collection, they have been willing to act as a useful asset in terms of taking on surplus ESB/EEP stock. I imagine Manor House may have been less willing to act as a holding facility for any bachelor or surplus groups given how invested they have been in improving conditions for individuals rather than species.
 
dean said:
What is the reason for them being generic? I know in breeding but what is the dominant species in the bloodline? Also are all the captive populations of Asian lions pure bred?
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Its not really related to inbreeding(though a lot of Lions undoubtedly are), more the fact that most African Zoo Lions have been bred in captivity for many, many generations during which time their ancestry/places of origin have all become lost as they became one big amorphous population. That doesn't apply to any groups of known ancestry/source but there aren't many of those around.

The current Asian Lion zoo population is very different, being comparatively new as it stems from a small import of pure animals from India in the early 1990's, and it has been kept pure since. As an additional precaution to maintain this purity, Asian and African Lions aren't allowed to be kept on the same Zoo site.
 
Communityzoo said:
Folly Farm may well be popular within the zoo community, but then, as a fairly nascent zoological collection, they have been willing to act as a useful asset in terms of taking on surplus ESB/EEP stock. I imagine Manor House may have been less willing to act as a holding facility for any bachelor or surplus groups given how invested they have been in improving conditions for individuals rather than species.
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Doesn't manor house centre around surplus bachelor white rhino? The collection also houses castrated p horses and non breeding damara zebras??
 
Pertinax said:
Its not really related to inbreeding(though a lot of Lions undoubtedly are), more the fact that most African Zoo Lions have been bred in captivity for many, many generations during which time their ancestry/places of origin have all become lost as they became one big amorphous population. That doesn't apply to any groups of known ancestry/source but there aren't many of those around.

The current Asian Lion zoo population is very different, being comparatively new as it stems from a small import of pure animals from India in the early 1990's, and it has been kept pure since. As an additional precaution to maintain this purity, Asian and African Lions aren't allowed to be kept on the same Zoo site.
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Thanks for clearing that up Pertinax, I was wondering about the generic side, i suppose that means that there are no actual pure Barbary lions in UK collections either? or the world come to that.
I know the Trafalgar square lions are based on Barbary ones though.

Considering the small space of time the Asian lions have been kept, they seam to have bred quite well as a good few places seam to hold them now.
The last article i read earlier this year stated there are around 300 Asians left in the Gir forest which is the same as I read some 30 years or so ago, hopefully they have actually increased since then.
 
dean said:
i suppose that means that there are no actual pure Barbary lions in UK collections either? or the world come to that.
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A much-discussed topic on Zoochat! :p

The consensus is that there are no true Barbary Lions left in the world, with a few dozen captive individuals who are called Barbary Lions by the collections holding them and which do have some Barbary lineage mixed in with other genetic lines - and a lot of captive individuals who are called Barbary Lions by collections who like to trade on the name, much like those collections which still label their zoo-mix tigers as "Bengal" tigers.
 
MrHoopoe said:
Doesn't manor house centre around surplus bachelor white rhino? The collection also houses castrated p horses and non breeding damara zebras??
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Sure, because the owner wanted rhinos (originally planning to buy them from a ranch in South Africa) and likes horses, which isn't the same as doing a favour taking on ESB/EEP surplus stock, as Folly Farm appears more conducive to doing (not suggesting this isn't a well-organised process). I'm sure if Manor House could have obtained a potential breeding group of rhino or wild horse via the EEP co-ordinators, they would have done. As for the zebra, these aren't ESB/EEP to my knowledge, and it has been stated elsewhere on here that at least two of the males were castrated while they were still at Colchester. I'm sure Anna Ryder-Richardson would positively love a zebra foal, assuming their original stallion is able.
 
Communityzoo said:
Sure, because the owner wanted rhinos (originally planning to buy them from a ranch in South Africa) and likes horses, which isn't the same as doing a favour taking on ESB/EEP surplus stock, as Folly Farm appears more conducive to doing (not suggesting this isn't a well-organised process). I'm sure if Manor House could have obtained a potential breeding group of rhino or wild horse via the EEP co-ordinators, they would have done. As for the zebra, these aren't ESB/EEP to my knowledge, and it has been stated elsewhere on here that at least two of the males were castrated while they were still at Colchester. I'm sure Anna Ryder-Richardson would positively love a zebra foal, assuming their original stallion is able.
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There are only 2 male zebra at Manor House , both castrated , so they will need a new stallion if they are to breed .
 
dean said:
i suppose that means that there are no actual pure Barbary lions in UK collections either? or the world come to that.
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For the 'Barbaries' the case for their continued existence rests largely on the question of purity- or otherwise- of the group of Lions kept at Rabat Zoo in Morocco- which are descended from Lions kept by the Moroccan sultans- which means they would most likely originally have been caught locally in North Africa. At one stage believed pure, at least some of them(the ones tested) are now known/thought from scientific DNA testing to have very mixed ancestry- possibly not including Barbary blood at all. The Port Lympne and Belfast Lions are of this stock too, so in turn are not pure either.

There may still be a few 'Barbaries' about that are the result of a different earlier (1970's) programme to 'breed back' Lions to recreate the Barbary appearance, using probably generic lions carrying the known physical traits of Barbaries (heavy mane, belly fur etc). These were graded A.B. or C according to their 'quality' and only the better ones were used for the next generation. Afaik these Lions, if there are still any of them alive, have little or no connection with the Moroccan Lions.

We shouldn't turn this thread into a Barbary discussion though..
 
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Bele said:
There are only 2 male zebra at Manor House , both castrated , so they will need a new stallion if they are to breed .
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Hadn't realised they were gelded. It explains why they could take a second male. I don't know if either(?) of the other pure Damara holders in Uk have a potentially spare entire male? It would be nice to see the Manor house group breeding.
 
Pertinax said:
Hadn't realised they were gelded. It explains why they could take a second male. I don't know if either(?) of the other pure Damara holders in Uk have a potentially spare entire male? It would be nice to see the Manor house group breeding.
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I'm pretty certain Hamerton hold an intact male Damara but I would be very surprised if they would work with Manor House,I would think there would be more chance of them working with Black Isle Wildlife Park and Axe Valley!
 
It begs the question, why would Colchester castrate its Damara stallions? I'm assuming the male already at Manor house had been gelded while still at Colchester as well. A quick search reveals a fair amount of inter and intra-specific aggression in the Colchester group, captured in photos in previous years. Assuming aggression was the issue, one would have to hope the maneless zebras are less aggressive, as it would be unfortunate to discover the enclosure size/lack of grazing/ animal stocking density is the main factor.
 
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