Common Hippos in the UK (and Dublin)

[Jambo]

Interesting. Is Hodor still entire then? As for a Conservation Zoo as ZSL report their zoos to be, I find it incredibly strange that they have allowed mother and son to stay together since, they were certainly living together last summer.

I would have thought that in-breeding would be frowned upon, especially in a zoo of the magnitude Whipsnade is held.

It’s very possible that Whipsnade may have castrated Hodor. The fact that they’ve decided to retain him and still group him with his mother further supports this, alongside the fact she hasn’t fallen pregnant since.

It seems Flamingo Land will be the only breeding facility for hippos going forward, so hopefully they have some success with Hoover and Godzilla.

 

[Panthera1981]

It’s very possible that Whipsnade may have castrated Hodor. The fact that they’ve decided to retain him and still group him with his mother further supports this, alongside the fact she hasn’t fallen pregnant since

This does also raise concerns about the long term viability of Whipsnade’s hippo facilities, particularly in this case if a male calf can’t be moved on quickly enough.

Imagine if the calf had survived? The ZSL Press Office would certainly have some very uncomfortable questions to answer. And animal welfare charities, of which some ZSL has a long term uncomfortable relationship with, would’ve had a field day!

 

[GaryA]

Well it's not like its a PERSON, is it? It happens in nature, and was obviously unforseen and unplanned. Can't see how anyone could condemn them over it. Seems you are maybe imposing human values on animals?

 

[Alwaysevergreen]

Well it's not like its a PERSON, is it? It happens in nature, and was obviously unforseen and unplanned. Can't see how anyone could condemn them over it. Seems you are maybe imposing human values on animals?

Personally disagree. If this happened at South Lakes, or at one of the Aspinall's parks, there would have many shouting kicking and screaming. Just because it's ZSL, doesn't mean it should be overlooked.
It may happen in nature and in the wild, but not too often, and if you are going to make out that inbreeding is okay, then it basically suggests you think the EEP is a waste of time, and there is no point having studbooks arranging breeding and moves, as the inbreeding of animals is okay.
At the first instance of a male trying to mate with its mother, the male / female should be separated.
Personally I am surprised by this, but further surprised the pair have been kept together since, since this happened.
It's not about human values, it's about conservation and the whole modern day purpose of zoos, and for one of the leaders in the industry to allow, and not prevent in breeding, is like giving the antis a field day as it simply should not ever happen.
You would like to think that collections are proactive, but even if that is not possible, they should at least be reactive.
I do not know if Hodor has been castrated, but he definitely should have been if they planned to keep him mixed with his mother after that incident.

 

[FBBird]

Personally disagree. If this happened at South Lakes, or at one of the Aspinall's parks, there would have many shouting kicking and screaming. Just because it's ZSL, doesn't mean it should be overlooked.
It may happen in nature and in the wild, but not too often, and if you are going to make out that inbreeding is okay, then it basically suggests you think the EEP is a waste of time, and there is no point having studbooks arranging breeding and moves, as the inbreeding of animals is okay.
At the first instance of a male trying to mate with its mother, the male / female should be separated.
Personally I am surprised by this, but further surprised the pair have been kept together since, since this happened.
It's not about human values, it's about conservation and the whole modern day purpose of zoos, and for one of the leaders in the industry to allow, and not prevent in breeding, is like giving the antis a field day as it simply should not ever happen.
You would like to think that collections are proactive, but even if that is not possible, they should at least be reactive.
I do not know if Hodor has been castrated, but he definitely should have been if they planned to keep him mixed with his mother after that incident.

Have some respect for ZSL, who have been keeping hippos for a while now
It’s likely that the pregnancy was unexpected, and that contraception of some kind is now in place

 

[GaryA]

Personally disagree. If this happened at South Lakes, or at one of the Aspinall's parks, there would have many shouting kicking and screaming. Just because it's ZSL, doesn't mean it should be overlooked.
It may happen in nature and in the wild, but not too often, and if you are going to make out that inbreeding is okay, then it basically suggests you think the EEP is a waste of time, and there is no point having studbooks arranging breeding and moves, as the inbreeding of animals is okay.
At the first instance of a male trying to mate with its mother, the male / female should be separated.
Personally I am surprised by this, but further surprised the pair have been kept together since, since this happened.
It's not about human values, it's about conservation and the whole modern day purpose of zoos, and for one of the leaders in the industry to allow, and not prevent in breeding, is like giving the antis a field day as it simply should not ever happen.
You would like to think that collections are proactive, but even if that is not possible, they should at least be reactive.
I do not know if Hodor has been castrated, but he definitely should have been if they planned to keep him mixed with his mother after that incident.

Criticism by fan boys with a vested interest in doing down certain establishments, on a, frankly, niche, website wouldn't have any effect on the reputation of a zoo with the general populace.

Nobody said I condoned it and to suggest that one isolated incident should result in the tearing up of breeding records is a massive over exaggeration. Where did I even begin to suggest this?

I'm not for breeding cross eyed, buck toothed, congenital deaf, bow legged beasties of any description.

Some animal populations are so small that there is no choice for them, naturally or artificially, to interbreed to an extent, simply to survive. Look at the genetics of the cheetah for example, and in a captive example, animals like Pere David's Deer and Arabian Oryx wouldn't have survived otherwise, with such small founder population. I'm not saying it's a good thing just that it happens.

In this case, if it DID happen, then it was clearly unexpected and the rumour seems to be that the male has been "fixed" since, so problem solved.

Getting overly exercised over something that happened a couple of years ago suggests the beginnings of a witch hunt against ZSL akin with the more unsavoury crusades the News of the World used to embark on.

I am more than fed up with faux outrage campaigns by people who are just looking to have their two pennorth. Mistakes MAY have been made, lessons have allegedly been learned, and action has allegedly been taken to prevent repeats.

Let it lie.

 

[Alwaysevergreen]

Have some respect for ZSL, who have been keeping hippos for a while now
It’s likely that the pregnancy was unexpected, and that contraception of some kind is now in place

I wasn't meaning to get at ZSL, I was replying to the post made by Gary A, saying how he couldn't see why a Zoo would get condemned for inbreeding, and that it maybe was not a bad thing, and that human Values shouldn't be considered when it comes to animals.

Nobody said I condoned it and to suggest that one isolated incident should result in the tearing up of breeding records is a massive over exaggeration. Where did I even begin to suggest this?

I'm not for breeding cross eyed, buck toothed, congenital deaf, bow legged beasties of any description.

Getting overly exercised over something that happened a couple of years ago suggests the beginnings of a witch hunt against ZSL akin with the more unsavoury crusades the News of the World used to embark on.

Gary A, your post stated that it basically wasn't a bad thing which is how I personally read it, that is what surprised me.
I accept accidents can happen and do happen, and it's good the situation was addressed, but your post stated "well its not like a person", which implies or at least how I read it, that because it was an animal it is not as important as if a mother and son, had a child together. I wasn't getting overly exercised, nor having a pop at ZSL, and certainly no witch hunt. I was surprised by your comment, that stated it was not a awful thing in your eyes.
I merely said that if it happened at certain collections, people would be more angry about it, than it happening at ZSL, which I don't think is untrue. I also think that inbreeding is very wrong in any capacity, yes it can happen, but it should be prevented at all costs.

A forum is also about discussion, and for debate, it's not for everyone to share the same views, it is also a statement that you attack a post and not a poster. You post highlighted that in breeding was not a bad thing, and less serious than humans. That surprised me.

If you look at my first comment, I actually asked if they were certain as to whether it was Hodor's or not, as he would have been very young. My second post said how I was surprised it happened, and thought that it would have been frowned upon.

It was only your post normalising inbreeding that I shared the opinion I had above.

As far as I'm concerned, I have not said anything untoward, neither have I shown any agenda to ZSL, I actually like ZSL zoos, I also have a strong belief in Conservation and that is why this news surprised me. I've far from gone witch hunt on them, My reply was simply on your post making out it was not a bad thing to have happened and that human values shouldn't be considered when it comes to animals, which I strongly disagree on.

As I said, I have no axe to grind, and was more interested how this had happened, and hoped it had been addressed to prevent it happening again.

 

[GaryA]

My initial answer was aimed more at the prior post which seems to suggest that the incident should be condemned on moral grounds-the comment about "what if it had survived?" suggests it would be some deformed unholy abomination that should be burnt at the stake.

That is why I equated it to the sort of yellow journalism used for salacious human stories, of which far too many occur in the media and on social media, one current case being in mind.

Instead it would have likely been a probably normal animal which couldn't be bred from. Anyway, it didn't get that far.

I just don't think anyone would be massively condemning the zoo over an accident, as has been suggested. My reply didn't seek to normalise it happening in the slightest. It seems that action was taken to resolve matters when the situation occurred. If continued mating and pregnancies had occurred, then, yes I would be condemning someone.

I also pointed out that sometimes it has been necessary with low numbers of a founder population to breed animals with their sires. Again, not optimal or advisory in the long term, but necessary.

It happens all the time with pedigree pet breeds and also domestic farm animals-again, pointing it out not commenting morally. It is a matter for discussion by scientific minds on the validity of such practices, rather than the moral and vocal majority.

I don't want to be known as the Mary Whitehouse of the Hippo Breeding forum! (Look her up, kids, and see what silliness we used to have to put up with).

Anyway back on track, I always felt/hoped that Marwell would add Commons to their collection. The ideal spot would have been the lowered paddock behind the gift shop, which was for many years the South American mammal area, as it led onto the flamingo pond and the tapir and pygmy hippo house.

The other place would have been the sadly rather redundant Into Africa exhibit.

 

[Panthera1981]

I’ll keep this as concise as possible.

Clearly my earlier post was misinterpreted by some individuals. It was NOT meant to be muck-stirring. I’d like to think we’re all intelligent enough on these forums to know that an inbred individual is not going to be some three-headed abomination! My FEAR was that if animal welfare charities had got the opportunity, they could have used it as yet another stick to belittle and destroy the hard work that ALL zoos do, not just ZSL. Obviously the breeding was an accident, but I stand by my assertion that Whipsnade should improve it’s facilities for Common hippo.

As I’ve stated before, those who know me know that my respect for ZSL, and affection and attachment to Whipsnade in particular, runs deep.

I’ll say no more on the matter.

 

[GaryA]

I apologise that I misunderstood your comment. That said, sometimes these things spin off on interesting tangents.

Matter settled and back on track.

I somewhat whimsically suggested elsewhere that the captive hippo population could be reinvigorated by the capture of the unwanted Escobar hippos to solve 2 problems at once.

It would remove a problem animal from its unnatural habitat and the story behind them is thoroughly engaging and would serve as a great illustration for not introducing animals into the wrong environments.

 

[Pertinax]

Obviously the breeding was an accident, but I stand by my assertion that Whipsnade should improve it’s facilities for Common hippo.

I've been visiting Whipsnade since cira mid 1950's and in all that time the Hippo accomodation has remained virtually unchanged apart from that woefully small house with the little indoor pools- but even then their old offshow inside area I suspect is still in use. Having seen an underwater Hippo viewing exhibit (Paira Daiza) it would be a terrific improvement and make a really good spectacle for visitors if one (or more) of the UK zoos took the plunge and invested in this though I appreciate the enormous cost is the blocker.

 

[Dave Hill]

I apologise that I misunderstood your comment. That said, sometimes these things spin off on interesting tangents.

Matter settled and back on track.

I somewhat whimsically suggested elsewhere that the captive hippo population could be reinvigorated by the capture of the unwanted Escobar hippos to solve 2 problems at once.

It would remove a problem animal from its unnatural habitat and the story behind them is thoroughly engaging and would serve as a great illustration for not introducing animals into the wrong environments.

The Escobar Hippos is a perfect example. These were originally purchased/Imported from an Unknown background. Then these have bred and built up a expanding population. But no new blood has been introduced , so these are also all Inbred with no fresh genetic material.

So if any of these were captured and reintroduced to European breeding programs, could cause more problems.

Also catching and relocating wild Hippos is not an easy task!! Hence due to lack of fresh breeding stock available in Europe.

 

[Embu]

The Escobar Hippos is a perfect example. These were originally purchased/Imported from an Unknown background. Then these have bred and built up a expanding population. But no new blood has been introduced , so these are also all Inbred with no fresh genetic material.

So if any of these were captured and reintroduced to European breeding programs, could cause more problems.

Also catching and relocating wild Hippos is not an easy task!! Hence due to lack of fresh breeding stock available in Europe.

Escobar died in 1993 so presumably these hippos are around 20 - 30yrs old. No one would want to breed from these stock but they would be good to be captured and kept safe in zoos. However as we all know these animals have been left for 20 years to become wild again and will sadly be left to fend for themselves

 

[Jonfla]

Escobar died in 1993 so presumably these hippos are around 20 - 30yrs old. No one would want to breed from these stock but they would be good to be captured and kept safe in zoos. However as we all know these animals have been left for 20 years to become wild again and will sadly be left to fend for themselves

The Escobar Hippos now number 70 plus , from the 4 individuals imported in the 70's and escaped in the 90's, so have been thriving and apparently causing mayhem for 30 years l

 

[Embu]

The Escobar Hippos now number 70 plus , from the 4 individuals imported in the 70's and escaped in the 90's, so have been thriving and apparently causing mayhem for 30 years l

70 individuals??!! wow that's a ridiculous amount roaming free

 

[FBBird]

Escobar died in 1993 so presumably these hippos are around 20 - 30yrs old. No one would want to breed from these stock but they would be good to be captured and kept safe in zoos. However as we all know these animals have been left for 20 years to become wild again and will sadly be left to fend for themselves

Imho they would be fine to breed from, with unrelated individuals. However, they’re never coming to Europe, the logistics would be insurmountable

 

[Cat-Man]

Imho they would be fine to breed from, with unrelated individuals. However, they’re never coming to Europe, the logistics would be insurmountable

The best we can hope for, sadly, is that they’re put down.

 

[GaryA]

My understanding is that the plan was for the young of the Escobar hippos to be trapped and castrated/spayed, but I have not seen any updates on this recently.

My feeling is if the Columbian/joint militaries or cargo companies were to offer to transport the breeding animals, then they would be snapped up, although it would take time.

In the interim they continue to pose a threat to local people and wildlife, unfortunately. They don't seem suitable to be exported back to Africa due to any viruses they may carry that native animals would be susceptible to, and they are simply numerous enough in Africa not to be needed.

It's a fascinating story and there is a documentary on them shown regularly on Freeview.

Again, I don't think they are horribly interbred, and would instead provide much needed new blood for captive populations. The age of the individuals wouldn't be an issue as they clearly breed often and well in a habitat that has proven all to suitable.

I think the problem with hippo underwater viewing is the sheer bulk of the filtration equipment to keep the water clear (I think mentioned elsewhere). The cost of upkeep, maintenance and sheer running costs are prohibitive.

Sadly, I never got to see the Longleat or Whipsnade hippos on my visits, but do seem to remember them from Chessington maybe 40 odd years ago. Not sure if they were held at Southampton Zoo back in the day.

 

[Tim May]

....but do seem to remember them from Chessington maybe 40 odd years ago.

I believe Chessington's last hippos were sent to Whipsnade

Not sure if they were held at Southampton Zoo back in the day.

Yes common hippos were held at Southampton Zoo.

 

[Jambo]

I believe Chessington's last hippos were sent to Whipsnade

Whipsnade's former breeding bull, Ben, (father of current female, Lola) was the last when he left there in 1992.