Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Not sure I understand what you mean, obviously I wouldn't advocate prioritizing the black blue-eyed lemur over other species that are equally in need of ex-situ.
Could and should the ring tailed lemur be replaced by other lemur species in zoos ?
Not sure I understand what you mean, obviously I wouldn't advocate prioritizing the black blue-eyed lemur over other species that are equally in need of ex-situ.
Sorry for my clouded visions, its a little hard to explain what I mean.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Yes, apparently in Europe too.
Dr Christoph Schwitzer who has worked at several zoos around the continent has been a big driving force behind the ex-situ and in-situ conservation of this species.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
No, don't worry, I get the essence of what you are saying in that you would hate to see the prioritization of one species ex-situ be at the expense of another that is equally in need.
But I'm just not sure that there is a big risk of that happening given that if these kinds of hypothetical decisions were to be taken they would be scientifically informed and scrutinized and decided upon by many parties.
Sure, that makes sense.
If the exhibit is in an entrance area or children's zoo or some general/non-geographic are they should not be put together. But if it is in a Madagascar or Africa section they should be put together.
At least one good zoo director said, and I agree, that Eulemur lemurs: brown, crowned, black etc. are more active and engaging for visitors. Ring-tailed are often inactive. The major difference is that ring-tailed look better on photos. In real exhibits, Eulemur win. It is true that reducing the numbers of ring-tailed lemurs in zoos, several other forms could be made self-sustaining.
Certainly, as a child interested in animals, I knew that lemurs were restricted to Madagascar, and there were 20 or more species existing. However, every zoo I visited had Ring/tailed, and no others. I dearly wanted to see other species. Having seen them wild, they are behaviourally interesting, but I would agree, while not losing them in captivity, a wider range, including Ruffed and Blue-eyed Black would benefit both conservation and biodiversity education. Equally, if conservation is to be truly important, then the species being conserved need to be able to be held in sufficient numbers and in a wide enough number of sites, so the general public need to be trained to expect this rather than ABC variety (or Zoos in the widest sense need to be able to diverge to meet either the needs of ABC day out punters, or animal breeding, completely off exhibit where required.
I agree with this entire statement.
I don't see why it would be necessary to decrease the populations of Ring-tailed Lemurs, but I do think that other lemur species should be recognized.
The potential population decrease is based on the fact that zoos have finite resources; every individual animal of species A is blocking a space that could be taken by B. Thus least concern species are taking resources from endangered species (at least potentially).
it just makes common sense to me - i imagine there are probably more ring tails in captivity around the world than in madagascar - i thought the whole point of conservation and zoos ultimately should be re introducing animals back into the wild
imaginarius
Well-Known Member
It was, but so much of animals’ natural habitats have been completely destroyed now to satisfy human greed, that it is becoming more and more impossible in many cases. There’s no home to return them to anymore.
and there we have the problem - it is not just now about saving animals but again i would of thought with a bit of joined up thinking we could come up with a solution
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
That is a really interesting point and actually when I've seen the lemur species you mention in zoos they have grabbed my attention more than ring tailed lemurs but I admit I'm not the average zoo visitor.
I don't know about ring tailed lemurs being more photogenic though as I think the black blue-eyed and crowned lemurs are both stunning species and actually far more aesthetically beautiful than Lemur catta.
Yes, I agree and this was the purpose of this thread to question if this could be made a reality within zoos and if it would be feasible / desireable for it to happen.
I'm in absolute agreement with you regarding this point and it is an argument that I tend to belabour quite a lot here on zoochat but at least in my opinion this is because we do need to challenge these dominant views and practices within zoos.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Not sure if I follow you...What do you mean ?
Yes, it does appear to be common sense but you have to bear in mind that reintroductions are incredibly costly interventions in terms of time and money and there is never a guarantee of success. The reality is that it often takes a long time for this kind of conservation management strategy to work.
Even successful examples that are frequently cited like the reintroduction of the golden lion tamarin here in Brazil were initially beset by a lot of problems and survivorship of animals was very low.
I imagine that reintroducing zoo bred and reared ring tails to the habitat that they are native to in Madagascar like spiny, scrub, montane and gallery forests would be just as challenging and would initially suffer from high attrition rates.
Last edited:
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Once again, absolutely agree with you on these points that you have articulated very well in your comment. I also believe that a wider range of lemurs kept would be beneficial in terms of both ex-situ conservation and biodiversity education.
Yes ! this is something that I really believe quite passionately that zoos NEED to facilitate, stimulate and encourage this interest in other species rather than what is in more cases than necessary a mediocre reliance on ABC species.
This is something that can be actively engineered and constructed and in the case of lemurs I don't think it is even very hard to do. These primates are very aesthetically appealing animals to people generally and with the right kind of marketing many of these could attain the same status as the ring tailed lemur and generate the same empathy.
Afterall, as I've said in other comments wasn't the ring tailed lemur once an obscure primate unknown to the wider world instead of having this "rockstar" status and popularity that it now has amongst the zoo going public?
Good point !
The natural habitat is being swallowed up and converted at an alarming rate and this anthropogenic problem will soon be compounded by the impacts of climate change.
It may not be possible for the tiny forest fragments that will soon be left to accomodate lemurs of either the extant or reintroduced variety unless there are significant efforts to plant habitat corridors that link meta-populations.
I think it could be necessary due to all of the reasons mentioned throughout this thread.
Apparently even the ringtailed lemur studbook keepers think that it is in fact a necessity to limit the reproduction of the species in captivity and for zoos to make more room for more threatened lemur species.
Last edited:
Obviously the figures which follow are a decade out-of-date, but as it happens a book released in 2010 (Lemurs of Madagascar 3rd Edition Mittermeier et al) - gave fairly precise numbers for how many individuals of each lemur species were held in captivity at the time of writing. These provide an interesting insight into just how heavily weighted towards Ring-tailed Lemur captive populations of lemurs are.
It's also interesting to see a number of species now entirely absent from captivity which were still held in 2009, and several others which are on the verge of disappearing:
Microcebus murinus - c.150 individuals worldwide
Microcebus mamirata - 4 individuals in Madagascar
Microcebus rufus - 4 individuals in Madagascar
Microcebus jollyae - 4 individuals in Madagascar
Microcebus lehilahytsara - c.24 individuals in Europe and Madagascar
Microcebus simmonsi - 4 individuals in Madagascar
Microcebus mittermeieri - 4 individuals in Madagascar
----
Mirza zaza - 6 individuals in USA and Europe
----
Cheirogaleus medius - c.50 individuals in USA and Europe
Cheirogaleus major - 5 individuals in Europe and Madagascar
----
Hapalemur griseus griseus - 16 individuals in USA and Europe
Hapalemur griseus gilberti - unstated number of individuals in Madagascar
Hapalemur griseus ranomafanensis - "several" individuals in Madagascar
Hapalemur occidentalis - 18 individuals in Europe
Hapalemur alaotrensis - 66 individuals in Europe
----
Prolemur simus - 19 individuals in Europe and Madagascar
----
Lemur catta - 2500 individuals in zoos worldwide, and "many more in smaller roadside collections, laboratories, and the pet trade"
----
Eulemur fulvus - c.160 individuals worldwide
Eulemur rufus / Eulemur rufifrons - unclear numbers due to taxonomic confusion - both species found in "a number of collections worldwide"
Eulemur albifrons - c.150 individuals worldwide
Eulemur sanfordi - 6 individuals in USA
Eulemur cinereiceps - 12 individuals in Europe
Eulemur collaris - 37 individuals in USA and Europe
Eulemur macaco - c.160 individuals worldwide
Eulemur flavifrons - 75 individuals worldwide
Eulemur coronatus - c.100 individuals worldwide
Eulemur rubriventer - 165 individuals worldwide
Eulemur mongoz - 111 individuals worldwide
----
Varecia variegata variegata - c.770 individuals worldwide
Varecia variegata subcincta - 38 individuals in Europe
Varecia rubra - 590 individuals worldwide
----
Propithecus coronatus - 19 individuals in Europe and Madagascar
Propithecus coquereli - c.55 individuals in USA and Madagascar
Propithecus diadema - 2 individuals in USA and Madagascar
----
Daubentonia madagascariensis - c.50 individuals worldwide
.
Onychorhynchus coronatus
Well-Known Member
Hey, thanks for sharing this @TeaLovingDave !
This is fascinating stuff !
2,500 ring tailed lemurs in captivity ?! and only 75 black blue-eyed lemurs ?!
I find it really quite scary actually this evident scarcity of some species kept ex-situ.
Yes, this definitely clears things up. Thanks for sharing!