Could and should the ring tailed lemur be replaced by other lemur species in zoos ?

[Coelacanth18]

No, don't worry @Coelacanth18 , I respectfully disagree with many of your arguments but there isn't any misunderstanding.
In fact I think you have added greater nuance to the discussion and raised some interesting points which I do appreciate.

Good, that was precisely the balance I was attempting to strike

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm underestimating reproductive success in some of these species that Duke manages and that their facility has struggled to recruit holders - I know that has been a difficult situation for a lot of other taxa (ex. lots of ungulates - warty pigs, babirusa, onagers and kulan, Asian deer, etc). There is certainly a tough situation in which zoos choose to go with the most expedient and well-known options - the upside is that it may maximize their ability to fundraise for conservation efforts, the downside is that it means taking a less active role themselves in ex situ conservation. To their credit, some large zoos (and Duke, big thanks to them in particular) are trying to boost what lemur populations already exist, but there are plenty of other zoos that are fine to just keep and breed ring-tailed and ruffed for the foreseeable future. I'd hesitate to go as far as calling it a moral failing - there are plenty of reasons that might go into the calculus - but it's hard to know whether or not they are underestimating their own potential impact.

For what it's worth - in the event that there is a clear need to place more individuals from rarer lemur species within zoos - absolutely there are plenty of genetically unnecessary RTLs whose space would better be used to maintain current or greater species diversity in collections. Knowing the state that some are in genetically and demographically, however, it's hard not to have my view colored by pessimism about the chances of species like blue-eyed black, collared, crowned, and aye-aye lemurs persisting in captivity long-term - at least without future imports from Madagascar.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Good, that was precisely the balance I was attempting to strike

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm underestimating reproductive success in some of these species that Duke manages and that their facility has struggled to recruit holders - I know that has been a difficult situation for a lot of other taxa (ex. lots of ungulates - warty pigs, babirusa, onagers and kulan, Asian deer, etc). There is certainly a tough situation in which zoos choose to go with the most expedient and well-known options - the upside is that it may maximize their ability to fundraise for conservation efforts, the downside is that it means taking a less active role themselves in ex situ conservation. To their credit, some large zoos (and Duke, big thanks to them in particular) are trying to boost what lemur populations already exist, but there are plenty of other zoos that are fine to just keep and breed ring-tailed and ruffed for the foreseeable future. I'd hesitate to go as far as calling it a moral failing - there are plenty of reasons that might go into the calculus - but it's hard to know whether or not they are underestimating their own potential impact.

For what it's worth - in the event that there is a clear need to place more individuals from rarer lemur species within zoos - absolutely there are plenty of genetically unnecessary RTLs whose space would better be used to maintain current or greater species diversity in collections. Knowing the state that some are in genetically and demographically, however, it's hard not to have my view colored by pessimism about the chances of species like blue-eyed black, collared, crowned, and aye-aye lemurs persisting in captivity long-term - at least without future imports from Madagascar.

Yes, I agree that Duke are trying to address these issues. I would even go as far as saying that the mistake with the Sanford's was less their fault and more the failing of zoos because you cannot breed a species if it ultimately has nowhere to go and nobody willing to take it in, right?

Again, not sure if I agree that keeping these less expedient ABC options at zoos does actually maximize fundraising for in-situ efforts. @Tetzoo Quizzer made quite a valid point and one which I happen share that zoos do have a role in setting / engineering / shaping the expectations of the public towards which animals will be seen and are worth seeing.

My own view (and it isn't a popular one) is that zoos often display something of a bigotry of low expectations towards the general public and what animals they expect they want to see and this can create a self perpetuating feedback loop.

I believe we shouldn't patronise the public in this regard or speak down to them. Instead we should appeal to their intellect and constantly reinforce the reasons why lesser known species that require it must be kept ex-situ and why this is important.

It might seem unlikely to most but I would even go as far as saying that I think zoos could potentially phase out the large ABC's entirely and only keep smaller endangered taxa. Whatsmore, I think zoos could do this and still be in business and have visitors coming through the gates (admittedly perhaps I'm a bit over-idealisc or optimistic there).

Regarding pessimism about the chances of the lemur species you mention being viable in captivity long-term I also unfortunately have this. Sadly not just with lemurs but also with other primates such as some Callitrichids.

 

[GiratinaIsGod]

In my opinion they shoudn't be replaced. Like many people allready said, the are not only endangered. But extremly popular. They are the perfect ambessedor species for madagascar. When people see the "funny I like to move it monkey from the Madagascar™ moviefranshise" They can gain the intesst of the avrage zoo goer. And in my opinion they work perfectly for mixed species lemur enclosrers. Especially with bachlor groups (there are to many males in captivity). You can keep a group of ring tails to gai nthe attention of the visitor. So the other more needy lemurs can get some attention aswell. And that comes from a guy with a lemur profile picture

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

In my opinion they shoudn't be replaced. Like many people allready said, the are not only endangered. But extremly popular. They are the perfect ambessedor species for madagascar. When people see the "funny I like to move it monkey from the Madagascar™ moviefranshise" They can gain the intesst of the avrage zoo goer. And in my opinion they work perfectly for mixed species lemur enclosrers. Especially with bachlor groups (there are to many males in captivity). You can keep a group of ring tails to gai nthe attention of the visitor. So the other more needy lemurs can get some attention aswell. And that comes from a guy with a lemur profile picture

Thank you for the comment @GiratinaIsGod !

Well interesting perspective and I see what you mean by the ringtailed lemur being an ambassador species and popular with crowds but I respectfully disagree.

Let me be clear, I don't think they should be replaced as such or totally phased out from all zoos. That would be ridiculous and such overkill and would ultimately defeat the purpose of ex-situ conservation.

However, I would definitely like them to be replaced at a good many zoos by more critically endangered species that have more of an urgent need to be kept ex-situ like the black blue-eyed lemur.

 

[15399]

have they tried re introducing lemurs back in the wild ?

I know that Duke Lemur Center did try to reintroduce Black and White Ruffed lemurs, with mixed success.


Also, lemurs have been successfully kept in mixed species exhibits in zoos. Why not just have a lot of zoos add a second Lemur species to their Ring-tailed exhibit?

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I know that Duke Lemur Center did try to reintroduce Black and White Ruffed lemurs, with mixed success.


Also, lemurs have been successfully kept in mixed species exhibits in zoos. Why not just have a lot of zoos add a second Lemur species to their Ring-tailed exhibit?

Yes, mixed success, but most reintroduction efforts do have a mixed success to begin with.

For example, the golden lion and black lion tamarin reintroduction programes initially had these problems. It usually follows a pattern of there being some mortality and attrition in the beginning followed by better survivorship as time goes on.

In terms of mixed lemur species exhibits it could be that what you propose could work in some zoo exhibits. However, I would say that unless these are species that are sympatric in their natural state and / or compatible in terms of temperament they should not be mixed.

More endangered lemur species like Sclater's lemur in my opinion could and should be kept in their own enclosures.

 

[PossumRoach]

Ideally, ring-tailed lemurs do get replaced with other species. Problem is obtaining new species is impossible because of the very-useful CITES. To my (ignorant) knowledge lemurs other than ruffed and ring tailed lemurs, other lemurs aren't as proficient breeders or have small litters.

To add up to keeping mixed species, I agree with Onicorhynchus. I do believe that keeping Eulemur sp. together is a bit risky.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Ideally, ring-tailed lemurs do get replaced with other species. Problem is obtaining new species is impossible because of the very-useful CITES. To my (ignorant) knowledge lemurs other than ruffed and ring tailed lemurs, other lemurs aren't as proficient breeders or have small litters.

To add up to keeping mixed species, I do believe that keeping Eulemur sp. together is a bit risky.

Yes, I agree that CITES and some Malagasy government legislation prevents or discourages zoos from obtaining lemur species.

Moreover, yes, that is true that there could be risks in mixing, beyond the obvious ones of interspecies aggression there is the problem of hybridization (obviously no serious conservation minded zoo would permit this though).

For example, the black blue-eyed / Sclater's lemur is already hybridizing in areas of its very limited range in North-Western Madagascar with the black lemur (Eulemur macaco).

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Ideally, ring-tailed lemurs do get replaced with other species. Problem is obtaining new species is impossible because of the very-useful CITES. To my (ignorant) knowledge lemurs other than ruffed and ring tailed lemurs, other lemurs aren't as proficient breeders or have small litters.

To add up to keeping mixed species, I agree with Onicorhynchus. I do believe that keeping Eulemur sp. together is a bit risky.

Also, agree that ring tailed lemurs are more prolific breeders than many of the Eulemur sp.

By comparison infant mortality and stillbirths are pretty common with the black blue-eyed / Sclater's lemur and a lot of newborns die only a few days after being born in zoos.

 

[PossumRoach]

By comparison infant mortality and stillbirths are pretty common with the black blue-eyed / Sclater's lemur and a lot of newborns die only a few days after being born in zoos.

Wouldn't that be a result of low GD however?

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

This is from a really interesting paper you can read for free online called "Blue eyes on red lists: Conservation and the Future of the Blue-eyed Black Lemur" by Katherine Meier.

"Captive populations of E. flavifrons have the potential to preserve the entire species. Current populations, however, face reproductive challenges which have so far inhibited them from serving as viable ‘reserve populations.’ They are struggling in captivity almost as much as their wild counterparts and, even if it were an environmental possibility, they currently could not support reintroduction into the wild. But captivity, unlike the wild, is a man-made environment. Having made the decision to use this captive population as a conservation mechanism, there should be more that is within our power to control and manage effectively to breed larger captive populations of the blue-eyed black lemur. Some possible suggestions to ameliorate the breeding of this species in captivity and to combat the issues it faces currently include: larger co-housed social groups, a more intense regulation of environmental conditions and scientific facilitation of individual breeding."

"Shifts in diet have lessened the severity of this problem, leaving the biggest remaining threat to captive populations as failure to successfully reproduce. Conception is not the main problem; rather, infant mortality rate is high, with babies often stillborn or dying within a few days of birth. Currently, reasons for this problem are centered around geography and quality of housing, but they remain completely speculative (Peggy Hoppe, pers. Com. March 31, 2016). Low baby survival has led to a captive population struggling in genetic diversity and size. Spread so thin across the globe, the ex-situ groups have little hopes of fulfilling any of the goals imagined for them as educators, supplementary research populations or, least of all, possible sources for reintroduction."

"However, unlike the highlighted zoo taxa and compared to many groups of equal or lesser conservation status, public awareness of lemurs is shockingly low outside of Madagascar. Larger populations of E. flavifrons held in captivity would increase awareness and outside investment in the species, its native habitat and its conservation."

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Wouldn't that be a result of low GD however?

Currently I don't think anyone knows why there is such a low success rate in breeding and survivorship of young of this species in captivity.

I think that what is beyond doubt is that there needs to be far more rigorous research done on the issue within the zoos that do hold the black blue-eyed lemur.

This is a quote from the paper I mentioned above and it sums up the issue quite succintly :

"Future research needs to identify the reasons behind problems such as the high rates of infant mortality that the blue-eyed black lemur is experiencing in captivity. If it can be confirmed that—as speculated—reproductive success is linked to how closely captive environmental conditions mirror those the lemurs would be experiencing in the wild, we could immediately begin to make the changes necessary to grow the captive population (changing group housing methods and controlling for variables like light cycles, temperature, etc.). If the reasons remained a mystery, we could conclude that a different yet equally immediate measure would be needed – namely, the use of reproductive technologies."

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

A video featuring Christoph Schwitzer who has worked at Cologne, Bristol and Dublin zoo and who is one of the world's experts on the black blue-eyed lemur a species whose ex-situ and in-situ conservation he is committed to.

This interview is quite interesting too.

Interview with Christoph Schwitzer: Part 1 – Lemur Conservation Network

 

[TeaLovingDave]

A video featuring Christian Schwitzer who has worked at Cologne, Bristol and Dublin zoo and who is one of the world's experts on the black blue-eyed lemur a species whose ex-situ and in-situ conservation he is committed to.

Christoph, not Christian a very nice guy, I met him several years ago at Bristol Zoo.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Christoph, not Christian a very nice guy, I met him several years ago at Bristol Zoo.

Yep, sorry, my bad .

I've never met him but he certainly sounds like an inspirational figure in conservation and would love to talk to him one day.

My boss actually worked alongside him for over a decade and has only good things to say about him and how incredible he is with coordinating lemur conservation and particularly for the black blue-eyed lemur.

 

[15399]

Yes, mixed success, but most reintroduction efforts do have a mixed success to begin with.

For example, the golden lion and black lion tamarin reintroduction programes initially had these problems. It usually follows a pattern of there being some mortality and attrition in the beginning followed by better survivorship as time goes on.

In terms of mixed lemur species exhibits it could be that what you propose could work in some zoo exhibits. However, I would say that unless these are species that are sympatric in their natural state and / or compatible in terms of temperament they should not be mixed.

More endangered lemur species like Sclater's lemur in my opinion could and should be kept in their own enclosures.

Blue-eyed Blacks have successfully bred in mixed Exhibits before, I don't know if it were with Ring-tailed, but the Eulemer Care Manual of the AZA encourages Eulemers to be mixed with other lemurs, and implied that they can be mixed with just about any other Lemur species. Currently, the AZA has SSPs for 10 lemur species, and I feel focusing on these ten is good, as long as some of the rarer species get mixed with ringtailed lemurs. However, there should not be a moratorium on breeding ringtaileds, as we don't want them to be in the same position as polar bears.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Blue-eyed Blacks have successfully bred in mixed Exhibits before, I don't know if it were with Ring-tailed, but the Eulemer Care Manual of the AZA encourages Eulemers to be mixed with other lemurs, and implied that they can be mixed with just about any other Lemur species. Currently, the AZA has SSPs for 10 lemur species, and I feel focusing on these ten is good, as long as some of the rarer species get mixed with ringtailed lemurs. However, there should not be a moratorium on breeding ringtaileds, as we don't want them to be in the same position as polar bears.

I'd definitely like to read that manual at some point, is it available to read for free online ?

Are you sure that you are not confusing the species in this successful breeding in confusing the blue-eyed black lemurs with the black lemur ?

Because I have definitely seen black lemurs successfully mixed with other species in enclosures and walkthrough exhibits but I have personally never seen a blue-eyed black lemur in either of these.

Given the challenges of both general husbandry and breeding the Sclater's lemur and the recommendations that it be kept in larger and co-housed groups I just think that it isn't good enough or even acceptable to house it in mixed species enclosures.

These lemurs due to their more urgent conservation and husbandry needs really do deserve their own enclosures and frankly with an attention paid to detail in their care and husbandry that zoos usually only afford to species like giant pandas.

I respectfully disagree with you about ringtailed lemurs, I don't think they will ever be in the position of polar bears in captivity.

 

[15399]

I'd definitely like to read that manual at some point, is it available to read for free online ?

Are you sure that you are not confusing the species in this successful breeding in confusing the blue-eyed black lemurs with the black lemur ?

Because I have definitely seen black lemurs successfully mixed with other species in enclosures and walkthrough exhibits but I have personally never seen a blue-eyed black lemur in either of these.

Given the challenges of both general husbandry and breeding the Sclater's lemur and the recommendations that it be kept in larger and co-housed groups I just think that it isn't good enough or even acceptable to house it in mixed species enclosures.

These lemurs due to their more urgent conservation and husbandry needs really do deserve their own enclosures and frankly with an attention paid to detail in their care and husbandry that zoos usually only afford to species like giant pandas.

I respectfully disagree with you about ringtailed lemurs, I don't think they will ever be in the position of polar bears in captivity.

The AZA has a number of their care manuals available for free online at this link- Animal Care Manuals | Association of Zoos & Aquariums
They are all long packets, and most of the information isn't relative to someone not working with animals, but here they are.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

The AZA has a number of their care manuals available for free online at this link- Animal Care Manuals | Association of Zoos & Aquariums
They are all long packets, and most of the information isn't relative to someone not working with animals, but here they are.

I do work with animals and conservation but not in a direct ex-situ / captive sense anymore and for the time being so no worries about that.

Thanks for the link I'll check this out with interest.

 

[15399]

I do work with animals and conservation but not in a direct ex-situ / captive sense anymore and for the time being so no worries about that.

Thanks for the link I'll check this out with interest.

Also, I stand corrected- The species most recommended for mixed Exhibits are Collared and crowned lemurs, E. flavifrons and M. m. macao are the two with the most difficulty in mixed exhibits.