COVID-19 effects on zoos and animal conservation

According to coverage by National Geographic China’s National Health Commission has incomprehensibly recommended bear bile as a cure for Covid-19.

At this point I guess it is safe to say we cannot put a microscopic grain or trust into the Chinese Communist Party's steps towards banning the wildlife trade and consumption in China. They continue to promote this Chinese "traditional medicine" nonsense so they likely will continue to justify, allow and even encourage the disgusting production of, trade in and consumption of wildlife parts. Even if they keep it banned for food purposes (and they might well not) it will continue because they stubbornly refuse to stop believing in the ludicrous claims of traditional quackery.

Even a pandemic that each passing hour is further shutting down the world economy, that shut down China itself to a great extent, that is killing people by the thousands and making people sick by the tens of thousands and that we know is only going to get far, far worse before it might get better has not been able to teach the Chinese elites a lesson about their disgusting and immoral wildlife consumption traditions. If this could not convince the Chinese government to stamp out these awful practices, then unfortunately I think there isn't anyone or anything that could. And unfortunately once we're trying to recover from the ruins of Covid-19, we'll be left waiting anxiously for what and how bad the next outbreak to come out of China will be.

China promotes bear bile as coronavirus treatment, alarming wildlife advocates
 
KevinB said:
They continue to promote this Chinese "traditional medicine" nonsense so they likely will continue to justify, allow and even encourage the disgusting production of, trade in and consumption of wildlife parts. Even if they keep it banned for food purposes (and they might well not) it will continue because they stubbornly refuse to stop believing in the ludicrous claims of traditional quackery.
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There is a way to talk about the perils of TCM that doesn't look like this.

Firstly, don't be aggressively insulting. You want, presumably, to persuade people to your point of view. If you talk like this you will lose about 1.3 billion people from your target audience. That's not great.

Secondly, ignore arguments about medical efficacy. The vast majority of Chinese people have a huge volume of anecdotal evidence that TCM works, and will also be able to quote that one example of an ancient remedy that turned out to be truly wonderful (Artemisin).

Thirdly, if you want to speak the truth about the CCP, by all means do so. Those are necessary voices in the world. But if you actually want to have an impact on animal welfare and conservation in China then you are going to have to work with the local government.

Some effective strategies:

Focus on the welfare and conservation arguments, and use emotive language.

Talk to young people not old people.

Make national pride arguments about the need to protect a nation's ecological treasures, and its reputation abroad.

Talk about science. It's going to be tough going (in this conversation) proving that pangolin scale doesn't have the medical benefits promised by TCM. So just talk about keratin instead. Suggest eating toenails and hair as a chemically identical substitute (and then wonder aloud why rhino horn, which is also keratin, allegedly has other effects).

If you get this far, then you can deploy a much more holistic and reasonable argument across a broad front. TCM is thousands of years old. It is inevitable that it will contain some truly effective treatments and lot of mildly beneficial practices. Most of the rest will work because of placebo, and then at the bottom of the barrel there will be some genuinely dangerous medicines that do harm to the human body. The problem is that the underpinning of TCM is wrong. We can see inside the human body now and understand that qi and meridians do not exist. The only way to know whether a TCM practice actually works is to subject it to the scientific method. That work is being done by Chinese pharmaceutical companies, but it's tough going in the current climate.

I'd love to hear from other ZooChatters who have experience of engaging with people who believe in TCM. What strategies or approaches did you find positive or productive?
 
FunkyGibbon said:
There is a way to talk about the perils of TCM that doesn't look like this.

Firstly, don't be aggressively insulting. You want, presumably, to persuade people to your point of view. If you talk like this you will lose about 1.3 billion people from your target audience. That's not great.

Secondly, ignore arguments about medical efficacy. The vast majority of Chinese people have a huge volume of anecdotal evidence that TCM works, and will also be able to quote that one example of an ancient remedy that turned out to be truly wonderful (Artemisin).

Thirdly, if you want to speak the truth about the CCP, by all means do so. Those are necessary voices in the world. But if you actually want to have an impact on animal welfare and conservation in China then you are going to have to work with the local government.

Some effective strategies:

Focus on the welfare and conservation arguments, and use emotive language.

Talk to young people not old people.

Make national pride arguments about the need to protect a nation's ecological treasures, and its reputation abroad.

Talk about science. It's going to be tough going (in this conversation) proving that pangolin scale doesn't have the medical benefits promised by TCM. So just talk about keratin instead. Suggest eating toenails and hair as a chemically identical substitute (and then wonder aloud why rhino horn, which is also keratin, allegedly has other effects).

If you get this far, then you can deploy a much more holistic and reasonable argument across a broad front. TCM is thousands of years old. It is inevitable that it will contain some truly effective treatments and lot of mildly beneficial practices. Most of the rest will work because of placebo, and then at the bottom of the barrel there will be some genuinely dangerous medicines that do harm to the human body. The problem is that the underpinning of TCM is wrong. We can see inside the human body now and understand that qi and meridians do not exist. The only way to know whether a TCM practice actually works is to subject it to the scientific method. That work is being done by Chinese pharmaceutical companies, but it's tough going in the current climate.

I'd love to hear from other ZooChatters who have experience of engaging with people who believe in TCM. What strategies or approaches did you find positive or productive?
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Today there is a unbelievable belief that rhino horns have a sexual effect, but in the past it was different. According to "Dongui bogam," an oriental medical book written in the 15th century by Heo Jun, a royal doctor of the Joseon Kingdom, rhinos horns are written to help reduce fever and treat skin diseases such as abscess and rashes. Of course, as is well known, the horns of rhinos are no different from human fingernails, they would not have really worked.

Dongui bogam is a book that is often cited by Korean oriental doctors and health food vendors today, but some of the treatments and medicines mentioned in the book are not used because they are too outdated or belong to protected species. The same goes for rhinoceros horns. If necessary, the horn of the rhino is being replaced by the antler of the Asian buffalo.


As a person of living in East Asian cultures similar to China, I think there are also be spiritual reasons for the Chinese to try to consume the body parts of animals such as rhinos and tigers. Rhinos and tigers, and many wild animals are looks like powerful, and they will think can be get their energy by eating them.

As a simple example, there are cases in Korea where genitals of male seals and sea lion are illegally traded, calling them 'haegushin,'(海狗腎) a drug that improves men's sexual energy. Although the Dongui bogam mentioned earlier also says that the seals genitalia is good for male sexual energy, I think the fundamental reason is outrageously simple. That may be because male seals mate with many females.

As an more simply example, there is a rumor in Korea that eel, especially the tail part of eel is good for male sexual energy, But that reason is also ridiculous. Sometimes eel's tail moves as if it's alive when being grilled, and they thinks eel's tail has all of power that eel uses to swim. In fact, the tail of the eel is small in quantity, also low in nutrients, and their fins have ingredients that prevent digestion.

With scientific knowledge mobilized, their claims are obviously preposterous, but it won't be easy to break these people's faith. They will not feel guilty about illegally trading protected animals for their own benefit, and may be enjoying themselves doing something illegal.
 
dt644 said:
Today there is a unbelievable belief that rhino horns have a sexual effect, but in the past it was different. According to "Dongui bogam," an oriental medical book written in the 15th century by Heo Jun, a royal doctor of the Joseon Kingdom, rhinos horns are written to help reduce fever and treat skin diseases such as abscess and rashes. Of course, as is well known, the horns of rhinos are no different from human fingernails, they would not have really worked.

Dongui bogam is a book that is often cited by Korean oriental doctors and health food vendors today, but some of the treatments and medicines mentioned in the book are not used because they are too outdated or belong to protected species. The same goes for rhinoceros horns. If necessary, the horn of the rhino is being replaced by the antler of the Asian buffalo.


As a person of living in East Asian cultures similar to China, I think there are also be spiritual reasons for the Chinese to try to consume the body parts of animals such as rhinos and tigers. Rhinos and tigers, and many wild animals are looks like powerful, and they will think can be get their energy by eating them.

As a simple example, there are cases in Korea where genitals of male seals and sea lion are illegally traded, calling them 'haegushin,'(海狗腎) a drug that improves men's sexual energy. Although the Dongui bogam mentioned earlier also says that the seals genitalia is good for male sexual energy, I think the fundamental reason is outrageously simple. That may be because male seals mate with many females.

As an more simply example, there is a rumor in Korea that eel, especially the tail part of eel is good for male sexual energy, But that reason is also ridiculous. Sometimes eel's tail moves as if it's alive when being grilled, and they thinks eel's tail has all of power that eel uses to swim. In fact, the tail of the eel is small in quantity, also low in nutrients, and their fins have ingredients that prevent digestion.

With scientific knowledge mobilized, their claims are obviously preposterous, but it won't be easy to break these people's faith. They will not feel guilty about illegally trading protected animals for their own benefit, and may be enjoying themselves doing something illegal.
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You're always very insightful, very informative.:)

I read a report about South Korea today. The numbers of the infected and dead now seem so, so low to us, because we have so, so many more. However, your country is much smaller, so I understand the degree of concern. Have things gotten any easier for you? Any safer?
 
AmbikaFan said:
You're always very insightful, very informative.:)

I read a report about South Korea today. The numbers of the infected and dead now seem so, so low to us, because we have so, so many more. However, your country is much smaller, so I understand the degree of concern. Have things gotten any easier for you? Any safer?
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In Korea, 70 percent of all infections are concentrated in North Gyeongsang Province and Daegu Metropolitan City. While there are also continuous outbreaks of infections outside of North Gyeongsang Province and Daegu, the increase in the number of infections is clearly low compared to a time of rapid increase. And not entirely reassuring, but some short outdoor activity is available in my neighborhood.

The Jinju city at South Gyeongsang Province where I live, was dormant, but last Saturday a new person was infected so a total of three people were infected in my home town. To be exact, the number of infected people in Jinju is four. But one counted as an infected person from Daegu by Jinju City Hall, as her's actual residence is Daegu. So officially, there are three people infected in Jinju.

There are two worst and poorest public zoos in Korea: Dalseong Park in Daegu and Jinyangho Zoo in Jinju. While the animals there may be living more stable lives with fewer visitors, I think it will be difficult to improve the two zoos if the government continues to spend its budget because of COVID-19. For these reasons, and for everyone's health, I hope COVID-19 ends quickly.
 
FunkyGibbon said:
There is a way to talk about the perils of TCM that doesn't look like this.

Firstly, don't be aggressively insulting. You want, presumably, to persuade people to your point of view. If you talk like this you will lose about 1.3 billion people from your target audience. That's not great.

Secondly, ignore arguments about medical efficacy. The vast majority of Chinese people have a huge volume of anecdotal evidence that TCM works, and will also be able to quote that one example of an ancient remedy that turned out to be truly wonderful (Artemisin).

Thirdly, if you want to speak the truth about the CCP, by all means do so. Those are necessary voices in the world. But if you actually want to have an impact on animal welfare and conservation in China then you are going to have to work with the local government.

Some effective strategies:

Focus on the welfare and conservation arguments, and use emotive language.

Talk to young people not old people.

Make national pride arguments about the need to protect a nation's ecological treasures, and its reputation abroad.

Talk about science. It's going to be tough going (in this conversation) proving that pangolin scale doesn't have the medical benefits promised by TCM. So just talk about keratin instead. Suggest eating toenails and hair as a chemically identical substitute (and then wonder aloud why rhino horn, which is also keratin, allegedly has other effects).

If you get this far, then you can deploy a much more holistic and reasonable argument across a broad front. TCM is thousands of years old. It is inevitable that it will contain some truly effective treatments and lot of mildly beneficial practices. Most of the rest will work because of placebo, and then at the bottom of the barrel there will be some genuinely dangerous medicines that do harm to the human body. The problem is that the underpinning of TCM is wrong. We can see inside the human body now and understand that qi and meridians do not exist. The only way to know whether a TCM practice actually works is to subject it to the scientific method. That work is being done by Chinese pharmaceutical companies, but it's tough going in the current climate.

I'd love to hear from other ZooChatters who have experience of engaging with people who believe in TCM. What strategies or approaches did you find positive or productive?
Click to expand...

I think some Chinese medicine may work, but not all. There is 2000 years of culture there so if it doesn't work, it won't exist. Actually Qi is similar to the nervous system, so acupuncture and stuff like that my work.(block to nervous synapse and relieve pain for example)

I actually use some sort of TCM to cure my Eczema. When I was young, I bath in some Chinese herb (don't know what plant) and drink leung cha, which translate as "cool tea". This lead to a reduce in my eczema.

So, what I want to say is don't make a straight cut and say TCM is bad. While I don't think rhino horns or pangolin scale works, some are possibly feasible.

EDIT: I don't think using TCM as a way to spread the illegal poaching is right, what I'm saying is TCM is definitely not nonsense.
 
dt644 said:
Today there is a unbelievable belief that rhino horns have a sexual effect, but in the past it was different. According to "Dongui bogam," an oriental medical book written in the 15th century by Heo Jun, a royal doctor of the Joseon Kingdom, rhinos horns are written to help reduce fever and treat skin diseases such as abscess and rashes. Of course, as is well known, the horns of rhinos are no different from human fingernails, they would not have really worked.
Click to expand...
Um, I made mistake, Dongui bogam was written in the 17th century.

aardvark250 said:
I think some Chinese medicine may work, but not all. There is 2000 years of culture there so if it doesn't work, it won't exist. Actually Qi is similar to the nervous system, so acupuncture and stuff like that my work.(block to nervous synapse and relieve pain for example)

I actually use some sort of TCM to cure my Eczema. When I was young, I bath in some Chinese herb (don't know what plant) and drink leung cha, which translate as "cool tea". This lead to a reduce in my eczema.

So, what I want to say is don't make a straight cut and say TCM is bad. While I don't think rhino horns or pangolin scale works, some are possibly feasible.

EDIT: I don't think using TCM as a way to spread the illegal poaching is right, what I'm saying is TCM is definitely not nonsense.
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I agree with you. Acupuncture varies from person to person, but works. When I have muscle pain, I go to oriental medicine clinic for acupuncture. And good skilled doctor can give a strong feeling to my muscles.

Looking for ingredients taken from wild animals that might actually work, I think of UDCA. UDCA is the main component of bear bile, which believed has improvement effect to liver function.

UDCA can artificially synthesized and in Korea, there is a health supplement named 'Ursa' that uses UDCA as its main ingredient. So does not have to be obtained from real bear bile. However, due to the fact that some people want real bear's bile, so in the Southeast Asia and China, where they planting pipes on the belly of live bears for continue to collect bile. This is not only a hindrance to animal welfare, but also nothing hygienic.

In the 1980s, South Korea government also encouraged farms across the country to raise Asian black bears to harvest bear bile and other byproducts before joining the CITES. However, when the Korean government joined CITES at 1993, it has been banned from using bears commercially. The bears and their descendants, who were then raised, are still being raised in farms, with the number reaching more than 400.

Bears here live on food waste in very poor conditions in farming households. So Project Moon Bear, a civic group that promotes the creation of sanctuary for the bears, has been established and is now active. I strongly support them.
 
aardvark250 said:
I think some Chinese medicine may work, but not all. There is 2000 years of culture there so if it doesn't work, it won't exist. Actually Qi is similar to the nervous system, so acupuncture and stuff like that my work.(block to nervous synapse and relieve pain for example)

I actually use some sort of TCM to cure my Eczema. When I was young, I bath in some Chinese herb (don't know what plant) and drink leung cha, which translate as "cool tea". This lead to a reduce in my eczema.

So, what I want to say is don't make a straight cut and say TCM is bad. While I don't think rhino horns or pangolin scale works, some are possibly feasible.

EDIT: I don't think using TCM as a way to spread the illegal poaching is right, what I'm saying is TCM is definitely not nonsense.
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The difference between qi and the nervous system is that the latter is observable and understandable, and the former is not. It's great that acupuncture brings relief to so many, but we still have no mechanism of action for how; no real certainty that anything is happening beyond the placebo effect.

I've highlighted the part in bold, this is a typical anecdotal account. We can't compare to other study participants who didn't take the bath, we can't know if the bath or the tea or the combination was effective, we can't even name the herb in this case. This is an interesting starting point for a research question, it is by no means evidence in and of itself.

It would be absolutely astonishing if TCM didn't contain effective remedies, but they are and will be identifiable and explicable by science.
 
In the last few days I have started to see reports appearing in some media that China is allowing some of the disgusting wet markets to reopen or continue to operate, and the reports also suggest that the wildlife trade could be resuming or being allowed again. I don't know how trustworthy these reports are, but at this point it looks likely that the Chinese elite will have learned nothing from this pandemic unfortunately.

The vile CCP is once more showing that it is only in it for its own appalling glory, and that they don't care about human life at all, let alone have any concern for animals or the environment.

China Reopens Markets Selling Bats, Pangolins After COVID-19 Effect Dips
Chinese markets are still selling bats | Daily Mail Online
Fauci: It's mind-boggling that China's wet markets are still operating during coronavirus pandemic
Shockingly, China's Wet Markets are Reopening; Will We Ever Learn?
China's 'wet markets' like the one where covid-19 outbreak began have reopened
 
This is very worrisome and it could easily seal the fate of zoos, I fear.

If it is known that zoo animals can contract the coronavirus, might provide the virus a reservoir to survive and might potentially give the virus a chance to transmit to humans again I don't believe any health officials or politicians will want to see zoos re-open. They will not be willing to take the risk. I don't think the public will want zoos anymore either if they are a risk for pandemics.

With seven big cats infected and ill you cannot speak of an exceptional outlier case anymore - this is something that is highly likely to happen again and become one of the coronavirus's systematic strategies, with very distressing implications for the current pandemic and for zoos.

If the months of closure will not economically kill zoos, this very easily could. This could very well mean the end for zoos.
 
KevinB said:
This is very worrisome and it could easily seal the fate of zoos, I fear.

If it is known that zoo animals can contract the coronavirus, might provide the virus a reservoir to survive and might potentially give the virus a chance to transmit to humans again I don't believe any health officials or politicians will want to see zoos re-open. They will not be willing to take the risk. I don't think the public will want zoos anymore either if they are a risk for pandemics.

With seven big cats infected and ill you cannot speak of an exceptional outlier case anymore - this is something that is highly likely to happen again and become one of the coronavirus's systematic strategies, with very distressing implications for the current pandemic and for zoos.

If the months of closure will not economically kill zoos, this very easily could. This could very well mean the end for zoos.
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I disagree. There is currently no evidence that the virus can go from animal to human in this case. Even if it could, the risk of infection is low as the number of people who have contact with big cats is very low and once infected, they can’t be reinfected. If the virus can jump to other animals, we’d most likely see primates, pets and domestics get sick first. None of that has been seen yet. I think it’s way too soon to be writing the obituary for zoos. Media will probably sensationalize this but I doubt any government policy will be made that will keep zoos from opening.
 
Sars-CoV-2 is a devious virus that we have way too many uncertainties about that may not be answerred for months of years. At this point we do not at all know how common human to animal transmission is, how easily it transmits between animals and whether it could transmit again from animal to human. We don't know either whether animal-human contact could contribute to mutation of the virus. But this is a dangerous virus you just cannot take chances with. Absence of evidence with this virus should mean great caution rather than assumption of safety.

The fact that seven big cats contracted the virus in a low contact situation is incredibly worrisome. That I think suggest at least animal to animal transmission as well as potential implications about the possibilities of human-animal transmission.

After this case any government health agency worth their funding and standing will not allow zoos to ever reopen as long as it remains uncertain whether there is any chance of further transmission or Sars-CoV-2 from animals to humans. That will likely also be the public and media demand.

Certain groups within society will almost certainly be using cases like this to attack zoos as unsafe for animals and people and as a thread to public safety and health. This is some of the very best ammunition the anti-zoo groups could have ever gotten to blast the existence of zoos with and to push their agenda on lawmakers.

This case has made me lose almost all the remaining hope I had for zoos surviving this crisis. I think we can probably begin writing their obituaries at this point.
 
KevinB said:
Sars-CoV-2 is a devious virus that we have way too many uncertainties about that may not be answerred for months of years. At this point we do not at all know how common human to animal transmission is, how easily it transmits between animals and whether it could transmit again from animal to human. We don't know either whether animal-human contact could contribute to mutation of the virus. But this is a dangerous virus you just cannot take chances with. Absence of evidence with this virus should mean great caution rather than assumption of safety.
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Which is exactly why we shouldn’t be speculating. There is no evidence that the virus can spread back to people. Could it? Of course. Should the zoo and other facilities take precautions? Of course. Most already have especially with primates which we estimated would have the highest chance of infection. Cats were estimated to potentially become infected so this isn’t too much of a surprise if you look at it. I don’t think anyone in this situation or in other zoos aren’t taking this seriously.

KevinB said:
The fact that seven big cats contracted the virus in a low contact situation is incredibly worrisome. That I think suggest at least animal to animal transmission as well as potential implications about the possibilities of human-animal transmission.
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it doesn’t surprise me much. Those keepers work with those animals everyday. The keepers touch their food, their water, their enrichment, their habitats, there are many points where the infection could have spread. With all the animals being large cats in different places in the zoo, this points to the one person being the transmitter. Of course there is possibility of animal to human transmission but there isn’t any evidence of that. Nor is there evidence that the disease can jump great distances or over barriers to people such as that in a zoo. Precautions are now being taken all over the country by keepers in close contact with the animals but guests that visit a zoo would have very little to worry about from the animals. They have other guests to worry about instead.

KevinB said:
After this case any government health agency worth their funding and standing will not allow zoos to ever reopen as long as it remains uncertain whether there is any chance of further transmission or Sars-CoV-2 from animals to humans. That will likely also be the public and media demand.
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I doubt this. As long as zoos take proper precautions, the threat will be minimal. Zoos probably won’t open by the time this virus starts to die off anyways so again the threat is minimal. And since when has the government actually listened to the people or the media?

KevinB said:
Certain groups within society will almost certainly be using cases like this to attack zoos as unsafe for animals and people and as a thread to public safety and health. This is some of the very best ammunition the anti-zoo groups could have ever gotten to blast the existence of zoos with and to push their agenda on lawmakers.
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I doubt this as well. Apes and cats can catch the common cold. Many other animals can catch human diseases and spread them back. Herpes in macaques is a huge issue but zoos take proper precautions and there are minimal issues. Once vaccines and proper prevention policies come out, this will be treated like any other zoonotic disease in zoos.

KevinB said:
This case has made me lose almost all the remaining hope I had for zoos surviving this crisis. I think we can probably begin writing their obituaries at this point.
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I’m sorry you feel this way but as someone in the industry, I really doubt this will happen. Many zoos will close in my opinion because of the financial hardships but not due to the government or the disease itself. Speculation also doesn’t help here. Solutions need to be come up with instead of doomsday predictions. These solutions are well on their way though so I find the need for this kind of talk unnecessary and harmful.
 
COVID-19 still outbreak all of the earths, and Korea's public zoos have decided to close one by one, but Jinyangho Zoo, a public zoo in my hometown, is still open, So I sent a petition to City Hall yesterday, to review the closing of Jinyangho Zoo. The answer will come until next week.

I wrote in that petition, in the other countries, some dogs and cats were infected with COVID-19. And also wrote several animals at Jinyangho Zoo. especially the macaque monkey, which is often used as a laboratory animal, can come into close contact with visitors, and many visitors are try to feed macaques.(see uploaded photo) So there is a high possibility that monkeys and visitors will be able to exchange pathogens. But if I wrote the situation of Bronx Zoo in that petition, it would have been more powerful to request the zoo to be closed.

The Bronx zoo incident is so shocking. I think that incident means COVID-19 could direct damage not only to humans but also captured wild animals.
 

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Echobeast said:
Speculation also doesn’t help here. Solutions need to be come up with instead of doomsday predictions. These solutions are well on their way though so I find the need for this kind of talk unnecessary and harmful.
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I think this point - especially the final sentence - must be very much emphasized.
 
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