Zion Wildlife Gardens Craig Busch and Zion Wildlife Gardens

[Panthera Puss]

'Maybe it is due to the fact that cats are mostly solitary hunters (thus by stealth) and do not tend to stay only in snowy habitats (ie. a mottled coat is better for broken forest).'

That would be the consensus view I think - if you look at photos of pt altaica in the wild they blend into forest surprisingly well, even in winter. Tigers generally need cover, they're not out on the open snowfields where a white coat could be an advantage.

I think there's a theory (maybe old-fashioned now) that 'tabby' tigers could flourish in the right conditions (e.g. on red or sandy soils), which makes sense to me - after all evolution (according to my limited understanding) depends on random mutations in the gene pool which may or may not be advantageous.

 

[phoenix]

Phoenix,

I'm just throwing this out there for you to consider. I have no proof, just an hypothesis I'm toying with.Hix

thats an interesting theory i'll give you that. it would be supported by the fact that there is a common belief that the white gene popped up independently in either a pair of siberian tigers or a siberian/bengal pairing at the sioux falls zoo - which if infact true means that in either cases the siberian did indeed carry the white gene. since proper records weren't kept back then however, i am inclined to take it all with a grain of salt.

however, if you theory is indeed correct, then there are two main obstacles that instantly spring to mind that i can't seem to explain...

firstly, wouldn't we still find the white gene to be common among siberian race tigers? the climate these cats live in is still comparable to that of any of the last ice ages. even with a healthy influx of orange genetics from further south in historic times, the white gene still being advantageous, should have continued to dominate in the caspian/siberian subspecies (which is now considered conspecific).

and secondly why is the white gene advantageous to a species that only lives under snowcover for part of the year. if we draw an analogue between other white coated species we find that they either live in snowy conditions year round, like polar bears do or that they moult to a winter coat only during the part of the year that suits ie; arctic foxes, hares or stoats. even during the ice ages we still had seasons. it was not, as it is often depicted, a continuous sea of white for a thousand years or more.
the equator was still tropical and the temperate forests still experienced summers, and plant growth that fed the herbivores and allowed nature to thrive. white tigers would not have been any more at home in a green forest then than they are now.

so really whilst the orange gene has proven that it can succeed in a snowy climate, the white gene has only proven that it cannot survive anywhere at al

why would it have been any different a few thousand year ago?

(again though - interesting theory)

 

[MARK]

Phoenix,

I'm just throwing this out there for you to consider. I have no proof, just an hypothesis I'm toying with.

Recent studies seem to indicate that P.t.amoyensis was the first tiger, evolving two million years ago in eastern China and then populations migrated north, south and west through various routes, where they persisted through many pleistocene glaciation events.

This hypothesis in regards to P. t .amoyensis being the first tiger race has been around for quite some time Hixy

 

[Hix]

I can only think of snow leopards, and they are really blue-grey rather than white.

Bluey-gray on an off-white background. As Snow Leopards often hunt on near vertical rocky slopes, I'm guessing the bluey-gray is to break up the outline of a white cat on the gray rocks.

the equator was still tropical and the temperate forests still experienced summers, and plant growth that fed the herbivores and allowed nature to thrive. white tigers would not have been any more at home in a green forest then than they are now.

I'm not suggesting that. However, I am suggesting the bengal has retained the gene because the northern part of it's range encompassed snowy regions - the foothills of the Himalayas and Karakorams, and even into Tibet and Bhutan.

why is the white gene advantageous to a species that only lives under snowcover for part of the year. if we draw an analogue between other white coated species we find that they either live in snowy conditions year round, like polar bears do or that they moult to a winter coat only during the part of the year that suits ie; arctic foxes, hares or stoats.

Firstly, just because you can't find an analogue doesn't disprove the theory. Actually, it lends weight to the theory, considering there is an absence of white tigers in the wild at present.

And secondly: Kermode Black Bear.

wouldn't we still find the white gene to be common among siberian race tigers? the climate these cats live in is still comparable to that of any of the last ice ages. even with a healthy influx of orange genetics from further south in historic times, the white gene still being advantageous, should have continued to dominate in the caspian/siberian subspecies

Agreed, and I can't answer that. But again, that doesn't disprove my theory, it simply means I don't know the answer yet.

Maybe, during glaciation events, the Amurs migrated southwards. When it warmed up the orange gene became more frequent and perhaps the return migration north was so slow they lost the white gene. Or it became so rare (i.e. extremely low frequency) that animals carrying the gene never reproduced together. And once Homo sapiens started depleting their numbers it became even rarer.

Like I said before - just supposition. If geneticists eventually identify the white gene in the genome, maybe we'll get some answers from museum specimens.



Hix

 

[millie]

leavehim alone!!

How dare you saw such vile things about someone who cares so much about his animals.!! His mother treated him appallingly and If she were here I would have some very fierce things to say, His animals love him and it is obvious. they would not let him get as close as they do If he was mean to them.

When the 'accident' happened He was not there. The animals missed him and got angry. what they did was because he wasn't there. They see him as their leader and they had every right to be angry. The tiger was shot. Do you have any idea how rare white tigers are? There are non left in the wild THEY ARE EXTINCT!!

She wouldn't let him attend the funeral or tell him where the tiger was buried. She is an evil vindictive witch who should be thrown out of society. Craig busch belongs at zion wildlife gardens and it needs him now more than ever. I will most certainly be donating because he needs all the help he can get.

Why is it that when some one openly cares for animals and tries to help them and us they are ridiculed and abused.
The human race seems to want to kill all animal life on earth. Someone stands up to this and tries to warn us but you all don't seem to care. I do. I admire him greatly and I hope one day to meet him and congratulate him on a job very well done.

The most important thing to remember is that it is never the animals fault. The animals adored him and IF he was mean to them they would not come near him. He has always known what hes is doing and we should have listened. (well I say we I mean you people) I just wish I could help him more and even email him my support. His animals were very happy and in imaculate conditions.

As for calling the cats 'freaks' My god I thought the victorian days were behind us. His lions and tigers are not monstosities or sickly they are gloriously healthy and their bloodlines must be preserved for future generations

I may not get to stay here long as I'm sure I will be thrown off for my views but Let me just say this

you disgust me.

 

[taun]

When the 'accident' happened He was not there. The animals missed him and got angry. what they did was because he wasn't there. They see him as their leader and they had every right to be angry. The tiger was shot. Do you have any idea how rare white tigers are? There are non left in the wild THEY ARE EXTINCT!!

Please read up on this subject, as you have been misguided.

Why is it that when some one openly cares for animals and tries to help them and us they are ridiculed and abused.
The human race seems to want to kill all animal life on earth. Someone stands up to this and tries to warn us but you all don't seem to care. I do. I admire him greatly and I hope one day to meet him and congratulate him on a job very well done.

Please don't even type such rubbish, as if he cared so much about the state of the wildlife on this planet he would not breed hybrid tigers and call it conservation!

I may not get to stay here long as I'm sure I will be thrown off for my views but Let me just say this

It's your opinion, but you have been misguided on the matter.

 

[blackpanther]

hi millie, i'm sure that you wont get thrown off, as we can deal with strong opinions here, as tuan says white tigers are not an extinct species they are a result of a gene mutation.

 

[taun]

hi millie, i'm sure that you wont get thrown off, as we can deal with strong opinions here, as tuan says white tigers are not an extinct species they are a result of a gene mutation.

I'll also add, were quite a friendly bunch usually and if you have any questions Millie after reading up on the subject of "White" tigers am sure we will happily answer them or point you in the right direction.

Also bear in mind if you are researching anything keep an open mind and look at all sources, as am sure you will soon find the truth on "White" tigers.

Regards
Taun

P.s. welcome to the forums

 

[millie]

you know your problems. You are so afraid of being taken in that you cannot be taken out. I follow my own conscience and my heart. NOT the media or the Rumour mill


Do not call my opinions rubbish!! It shows you for the uneducated person that you are
He is conserving a rare and vunerable spieces. Which is more than can be said for you Its us who should be extinct to give nature a chance

 

[blackpanther]

you know your problems. You are so afraid of being taken in that you cannot be taken out. I follow my own conscience and my heart. NOT the media or the Rumour mill

i'm not sure what you mean by this, but as i said before white tigers are not extinct and you will find a lot of information about that on this site.

 

[MARK]

Millie, Everyone one can have their view and thats not a problem, but saying to another member "you disgust me" because of their view is not the same as yours is a bit strong, so please just tone this down a little.
Thanks

 

[Dawn B]

How dare you saw such vile things about someone who cares so much about his animals.!! His mother treated him appallingly and If she were here I would have some very fierce things to say, His animals love him and it is obvious. they would not let him get as close as they do If he was mean to them.

When the 'accident' happened He was not there. The animals missed him and got angry. what they did was because he wasn't there. They see him as their leader and they had every right to be angry. The tiger was shot. Do you have any idea how rare white tigers are? There are non left in the wild THEY ARE EXTINCT!!

She wouldn't let him attend the funeral or tell him where the tiger was buried. She is an evil vindictive witch who should be thrown out of society. Craig busch belongs at zion wildlife gardens and it needs him now more than ever. I will most certainly be donating because he needs all the help he can get.

Why is it that when some one openly cares for animals and tries to help them and us they are ridiculed and abused.
The human race seems to want to kill all animal life on earth. Someone stands up to this and tries to warn us but you all don't seem to care. I do. I admire him greatly and I hope one day to meet him and congratulate him on a job very well done.

The most important thing to remember is that it is never the animals fault. The animals adored him and IF he was mean to them they would not come near him. He has always known what hes is doing and we should have listened. (well I say we I mean you people) I just wish I could help him more and even email him my support. His animals were very happy and in imaculate conditions.

As for calling the cats 'freaks' My god I thought the victorian days were behind us. His lions and tigers are not monstosities or sickly they are gloriously healthy and their bloodlines must be preserved for future generations

I may not get to stay here long as I'm sure I will be thrown off for my views but Let me just say this

you disgust me.

Oh dear, anthropomorphism at its best!!!

 

[madbushfarm]

you know your problems. You are so afraid of being taken in that you cannot be taken out. I follow my own conscience and my heart. NOT the media or the Rumour mill


Do not call my opinions rubbish!! It shows you for the uneducated person that you are
He is conserving a rare and vunerable spieces. Which is more than can be said for you Its us who should be extinct to give nature a chance

Hi Millie

Attacking people and calling them uneducated isn't the way to go about things. White Tigers are not a separate subspecies of tiger that is fact not heresay. The tigers at Zion Wildlife Gardens are Bengal Tigers with a recessive white gene. All have been declawed. That is also a fact. Again it is not heresay. Calling Mrs Busch a witch is not going to solve anything. She is not a witch - she is Mr Busch's mother. Below are some links you can either choose or not to to choose to look at.

Facts about White Tigers
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_tiger]White tiger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The MAF Investigation Report into the declawings of 21 Lions & 9 Tigers at Zion Wildlife Gardens between 2000 -May 2008 This is a government sourced document released under the Official Information Act

MAF Report Zion Declawing Investigation Feb 2009

The Judgement Summary from the High Court of New Zealand website this outlines the full background to the entire issue. It contains both sides of the story and is unbiased and factual

Busch v Zion Wildlife Gardens Limited and Ors — Courts of New Zealand

Lastly the Employment Relations Authority Report from December 2008 concerning Mr Busch's application for Interim Reinstatement. Again this is factual and unbiased and gives the full background to the issues.

Craig Busch ERA Aa 415 08

Please keep in mind the dispute between Mr Busch and Zion Wildlife Gardens is subject to the NZ Courts and it will be the courts that are the deciding factor regardless of anyone's opinions.

 

[CZJimmy]

How dare you saw such vile things about someone who cares so much about his animals.!! His mother treated him appallingly and If she were here I would have some very fierce things to say, His animals love him and it is obvious. they would not let him get as close as they do If he was mean to them.

When the 'accident' happened He was not there. The animals missed him and got angry. what they did was because he wasn't there. They see him as their leader and they had every right to be angry. The tiger was shot. Do you have any idea how rare white tigers are? There are non left in the wild THEY ARE EXTINCT!!

She wouldn't let him attend the funeral or tell him where the tiger was buried. She is an evil vindictive witch who should be thrown out of society. Craig busch belongs at zion wildlife gardens and it needs him now more than ever. I will most certainly be donating because he needs all the help he can get.

Why is it that when some one openly cares for animals and tries to help them and us they are ridiculed and abused.
The human race seems to want to kill all animal life on earth. Someone stands up to this and tries to warn us but you all don't seem to care. I do. I admire him greatly and I hope one day to meet him and congratulate him on a job very well done.

The most important thing to remember is that it is never the animals fault. The animals adored him and IF he was mean to them they would not come near him. He has always known what hes is doing and we should have listened. (well I say we I mean you people) I just wish I could help him more and even email him my support. His animals were very happy and in imaculate conditions.

As for calling the cats 'freaks' My god I thought the victorian days were behind us. His lions and tigers are not monstosities or sickly they are gloriously healthy and their bloodlines must be preserved for future generations

I may not get to stay here long as I'm sure I will be thrown off for my views but Let me just say this

you disgust me.

Thank you Millie

I really needed a laugh tonight!

 

[Jarkari]

you know your problems. You are so afraid of being taken in that you cannot be taken out. I follow my own conscience and my heart. NOT the media or the Rumour mill


Do not call my opinions rubbish!! It shows you for the uneducated person that you are
He is conserving a rare and vunerable spieces. Which is more than can be said for you Its us who should be extinct to give nature a chance

Seriously??? Conserving??? Even A very reputable zoo in Australia received quite a bit of backlash for housing white animals. Zions animals play no role in conservation other than educating the public and the information this place was providing while Craig was in charge was simply incorrect.

If these animals were as endangered and as at risk as you and Mr Busch believe don't you think that more mainstream zoos would be doing something about it.

Zoos in Australia and New Zealand do not house white tigers, Dreamworld is the exception but they no longer breed them and have invested significantly in the Sumatran Breeding program.

P.S. with your comment stating that our views are from victorian times. HA! What about declawing big cats? This is something no reputable zoo in modern times would do!

 

[taun]

you know your problems. You are so afraid of being taken in that you cannot be taken out. I follow my own conscience and my heart. NOT the media or the Rumour mill

Millie, Millie, Mille, please note that I don't care what the media have reported on him as a person. I also work on FACTS and am not going to argue about HIM.

Do not call my opinions rubbish!! It shows you for the uneducated person that you are
He is conserving a rare and vunerable spieces. Which is more than can be said for you Its us who should be extinct to give nature a chance

Please show me the FACTS that these are endangered animals? As many have point out there is no such species as a "White" tiger, once you have read up on the subject I will happily debate the subject with you if you still feel the same.

Also you posted nonsense on the people in these forums, you will find many threads here discussing conservation of worthwhile species.

Looking forward to discussing the matter more with you on the “Endangered white tiger” after you have research this subject!

 

[Chlidonias]

I would like to congratulate Millie on her great sense of humour. The hilarious parody of Craig Busch supporters that she has posted here made me laugh my posterior off