Noah's Ark Zoo Farm Creationist Zoo causes dismay

But they could have held off breeding until they had a group of more similar origin.

But he has 1.2, breedable zebras so why would he want to get more when he has no interest in holding a pure subspecies? As I mentioned before, I reckon Mr Bush simply acquired what was available to him. His priority was to keep and breed zebras as part of his visitor attraction, there being no more meaningful agenda than that. Perhaps you are suggesting that he should want to hold only Grant's or only Chapman's? As I have said, I don't approve of crossing zebra subspecies but I am not going to dictate others preferences. It is highly unlikely that such hybrids will make their way into the collections of more responsible and moral owners so at the end of the day little harm has been done.

Whipsnade can afford to be choosy as they are in a strong position in the world zoo comunity. Mr Bush, due to his own faults, does not hold such. It would be understandable that when a collection has to resort to buying otherwise freely-available animals it goes for the cheapest or most easily accessible which in this case happened to be two different races.

Really what you have to understand is that many Zoochatters agendas are taxonomically-driven, we can afford to be idealists, we are not the average visitors that zoos require to survive. Things are different in the real zoo world where proprietors have to carefully offset concientious animal management against public relations and the relentless effort to keep folk coming through the gates where they may conflict. This is especially the case for zoos such as NAZF where doors that would be open to many of the mainstreanm collections are closed.
 
I don't think anyone is questioning the motives for surivial as a wildlife attraction, but the fact this is a nascent BIAZA-endorsed collection. If you look at, say, Folly Farm, you see a process of gradually taking on more and more responsibility for EEP species, and building themselves up as a trustworthy collection. If, at this early stage, Noahs Ark has stumbled and is forced to buy creatures as other collections are not interacting with it in the way they could be reasonably expected to do so given its BIAZA status, then something in that equation seems to me to be wrong. A functional collection new to BIAZA should surely create more space and opportunities for holding bachelor groups and creating space for breeding EEP/ESB species in a co-ordinated effort with other collections.
 
@ Paradoxurus - I think everything you say is correct; maybe I am being idealist but I don't think that waiting a little longer for a baby zebra would have caused him to close down, and would have done much to help him gain a better position in the zoo community.

And if he's struggling for visitors, bear in mind he still closes on Sundays. I know this is for a personal principle he clearly feels strongly about, which is perfectly within his rights, but I've often wondered what effect that has on his numbers.


@ johnstoni - You've hit on an important point there - this would concern me far less if the place was not a fairly new member of BIAZA, that is in an ideal position to improve its status in the ways you suggest.
 
But if they insist on the hybrid breeding etc will that status improve?
 
Isn`t amazing how just one collection can cause such a debate,its just a pity it will not be the last time that it will cause this kind a debate more`s the pity.
 
Maguari said:
@ Paradoxurus - I think everything you say is correct; maybe I am being idealist but I don't think that waiting a little longer for a baby zebra would have caused him to close down, and would have done much to help him gain a better position in the zoo community.

And if he's struggling for visitors, bear in mind he still closes on Sundays. I know this is for a personal principle he clearly feels strongly about, which is perfectly within his rights, but I've often wondered what effect that has on his numbers.
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We both know that he could vastly improve his image in the eyes of the zoo community by changing/improving his practices but I rather get the impression that he doesn't give a fig. He wants a zoo with lots of animals and for that to make him money - something that I think he is succeeding at. This is someone from a farming background, remember, who has carried that mentality with him to operating a zoo. Just look at the appearance of the place - little effort is put into theming or aesthetics and only little more into education (and that of a rather dubious nature). His desire to cooperate with other zoos extends only to acquiring animals - there is little incentive, or desire, for him as an individual businessman to seek any further involvement with the zoo comunity.

johnstoni said:
I don't think anyone is questioning the motives for surivial as a wildlife attraction, but the fact this is a nascent BIAZA-endorsed collection. If you look at, say, Folly Farm, you see a process of gradually taking on more and more responsibility for EEP species, and building themselves up as a trustworthy collection. If, at this early stage, Noahs Ark has stumbled and is forced to buy creatures as other collections are not interacting with it in the way they could be reasonably expected to do so given its BIAZA status, then something in that equation seems to me to be wrong. A functional collection new to BIAZA should surely create more space and opportunities for holding bachelor groups and creating space for breeding EEP/ESB species in a co-ordinated effort with other collections.
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BIAZA is a funny old organisation. There are several member collections that enjoy the status that their membership brings but have no altruistic interests. Just because a collection is a BIAZA member does not mean that it 'wants' to co-operate with the rest of the gang or indeed agree with their policies. Remember that collections are still individualistic whatever umbrella organisation they fall under. Many just see it as a way of acquiring animals for nothing.

It is also worth bearing in mind that although the BIAZA Surplus and Wanted list is available to browse by all members, does not mean that it operates on a first-come-first-served basis. Members can still refuse to send stock to fellow-members. Membership does not guaruntee a right to others' surplus.

And of course there is still the debate as to whether BIAZA is more needy of its members than they are of it. Depending on your view this could mean that BIAZA admits members on little more than stumping up their subs...
 
Paradoxurus, I totally take on all of what you have said in your most excellent opinion, however, when becoming a BIAZA member you should at least try to play "ball" with the rest of the zoo community. If you approach people correctly and "tow the line" a little it is suprising how friendly the professional zoo community can be. If Mr Bush is trying to run a finacially rewarding business then he should see that "swapping" animals will give him greater profits rather than having to buy them, he just wants to have "babies" at the farm as he feels it will bring him greater numbers of visitors when in fact he has been offered plenty of non breeding groups of animals which would still serve their purpose as visitor attraction, like having a non breeding group of tigers, he would still have been able to advertise "the tigers are coming"! As for the zebras a little patience goes a bloody long way, he didn't need to breed a perfectly good looking grants type mare with a good looking chapmans stallion, totally ridiculous.
 
tizer said:
Paradoxurus, I totally take on all of what you have said in your most excellent opinion, however, when becoming a BIAZA member you should at least try to play "ball" with the rest of the zoo community. If you approach people correctly and "tow the line" a little it is suprising how friendly the professional zoo community can be. If Mr Bush is trying to run a finacially rewarding business then he should see that "swapping" animals will give him greater profits rather than having to buy them, he just wants to have "babies" at the farm as he feels it will bring him greater numbers of visitors when in fact he has been offered plenty of non breeding groups of animals which would still serve their purpose as visitor attraction, like having a non breeding group of tigers, he would still have been able to advertise "the tigers are coming"! As for the zebras a little patience goes a bloody long way, he didn't need to breed a perfectly good looking grants type mare with a good looking chapmans stallion, totally ridiculous.
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Why, thank you tizer. Despite sounding a little like the Devil's Advocate in my former posts, I do agree with pretty much everything that has been posted in this thread. Although I would approach the development of a zoological facility entirely differently to Mr Bush, I do largely defend his right to hold a different opinion.

I am well aware that is worthwhile to build bridges within the BIAZA membership and wider zoo comunity and that the effort can prove rewarding. And yes I do agree that this is the most effective way of moving a collection forward in this day and age. But I don't think Mr bush, for the evidence already outlined, is so far-sighted.

All zoo owners have different opinions of what will bring the punters in. Alongside that, many have a serious interest in wild animals, their husbandry and conservation. Charismatic megafauna are used as tools for generating funds for the conservation of more specialist but less appealing species (Partula Snails, Laysan Teal and Oweston's Palm Civets for example). But we see no interest, nor effort, towards these rather unassuming species at NAZF. It should come as little surprise that animals are being bred in a slap-dash manner and, as a consequence, that the owners are winning few friends amongst their colleagues.
 
I never actually saw ANYTHING conservation wise at Noahs, has anyone else?
 
2 females arrived, one was pregnant, it was on a webcam, Tira abandoned the surviving cubs and 2 where stillborn. The cub was removed, stuck on a webcam for people to gawp at, it lasted about a week before dying.

Tira died a few days after birth with some stupid story the zoo made up about some disease riddling through her body, when it was more likely the placenta didn't pass or a cub was stuck inside her and poisoned her.

They still have 1:1 tigers with a view to breed them in the future.
 
My view of Noah's Ark (from the thread http://www.zoochat.com/211/noahs-ark-zoo-farm-38502/):

Maguari said:
...the place has two major problems in my eyes: they are giving out an incredibly distorted view of science in their educational materials and they don't appear to be even basically competent in animal care or construction. Certainly not of the level you would expect from a BIAZA institution. See - Yellow Labrador put on show by tying it to a fence with just a basket and a water bowl, giraffe house held together by twine, prairie marmot enclosure that appears to have an electric fence two feet off the ground but no barrier below ground at all (photos of all of the above in the gallery), listing Somali Wild Ass on ISIS despite having only donkeys and Chapman's Zebras (and they still do, though I know for a fact this has been pointed out to them) and the whole tiger birth fiasco.
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As you can see Lee I'm not a fan!


EDIT: Actually - I should correct that statement about their equids - they have donkeys, Chapman's and Grant's Zebras and are cross-breeding the two zebra subspecies (deliberately).
 
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