Well, I agree but for example Prague marketed their new gharial pretty well and I dare to say average visitor wants to see them now. Of course they had some advantageous factor of not having a croc specie for few years, their conservations status and oddnes and rarity of the specie among crocodilians - so it was easier to market them. But hopefully similar ting can be done for other critically endangered species.
Krokodille Zoo Crocodile Zoo
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Well, I agree but for example Prague marketed their new gharial pretty well and I dare to say average visitor wants to see them now. Of course they had some advantageous factor of not having a croc specie for few years, their conservations status and oddnes and rarity of the specie among crocodilians - so it was easier to market them. But hopefully similar ting can be done for other critically endangered species.
No, let me explain. Outdoor access is normally better for every animal, but large reptiles could be an exception.
Breeding is very rare, although they are kept in most middle-sized and large zoos. Even if zoos can't rear them, females should lay eggs.
Have you been to a tropical country in warm season, eg. India during monsoon? The temperature is in upper 30's-40's. European summer is equivalent to Indian winter. Crocodiles in European zoos probably feel all year like in chilly Indian midwinter. Most tropical birds and mammals feel OK at room temperature, but reptiles not.
Yes and not. Large animals take long time to cool. But they also take extremely long to warm up thoroughly. In fact, given that indoor areas are also at a room temperature (otherwise visitors would complain on heat, misted glass etc), perhaps big reptiles never warm up sufficiently. Actually one could measure it directly.
Yes, but it is easy to provide warmed-up microclimate for a small lizard or a turtle, especially coming from the Mediterranean climate. Croc or giant tortoise will not fit completely under a heating lamp and will not hide from the wind behind every stone.
True...
Breeding is very rare, although they are kept in most middle-sized and large zoos. Even if zoos can't rear them, females should lay eggs.
Have you been to a tropical country in warm season, eg. India during monsoon? The temperature is in upper 30's-40's. European summer is equivalent to Indian winter. Crocodiles in European zoos probably feel all year like in chilly Indian midwinter. Most tropical birds and mammals feel OK at room temperature, but reptiles not.
Yes and not. Large animals take long time to cool. But they also take extremely long to warm up thoroughly. In fact, given that indoor areas are also at a room temperature (otherwise visitors would complain on heat, misted glass etc), perhaps big reptiles never warm up sufficiently. Actually one could measure it directly.
Yes, but it is easy to provide warmed-up microclimate for a small lizard or a turtle, especially coming from the Mediterranean climate. Croc or giant tortoise will not fit completely under a heating lamp and will not hide from the wind behind every stone.
True...
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@docend24: It would indeed be good if more zoos in Europe followed Prague's example in this regard.
@Jurek7:
-I think most zoos don't want to breed Giant tortoises as they don't want to burden themselves with this task. In fact, it's easier to import at least the Aldabra giant tortoise from breeding stations in, for example, Mauritius...
-Yes, I have. However, animals (especially reptiles) in such areas avoid extreme temperatures by hiding (f.e. in the shadow or holes)/swimming/lying in mud etc. Additional warmth can be, as explained, provided in Europe, if needed. And why not warm up their indoor enclosure during the European winter in accordance with the hot climate of the original habitat? Animals are known to adapt, even reptiles and archosaurs...
-Reg. warming up: that's why the tortoises are usually only led out when they have already been "warmed up" indoors and the temperatures outside are apt.
-It might not be able to hide completely (neither can the smaller reptile), but it still could go inside if needed.
@Jurek7:
-I think most zoos don't want to breed Giant tortoises as they don't want to burden themselves with this task. In fact, it's easier to import at least the Aldabra giant tortoise from breeding stations in, for example, Mauritius...
-Yes, I have. However, animals (especially reptiles) in such areas avoid extreme temperatures by hiding (f.e. in the shadow or holes)/swimming/lying in mud etc. Additional warmth can be, as explained, provided in Europe, if needed. And why not warm up their indoor enclosure during the European winter in accordance with the hot climate of the original habitat? Animals are known to adapt, even reptiles and archosaurs...
-Reg. warming up: that's why the tortoises are usually only led out when they have already been "warmed up" indoors and the temperatures outside are apt.
-It might not be able to hide completely (neither can the smaller reptile), but it still could go inside if needed.
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forumbully
Well-Known Member
on the giant tortoises:
- african spurred: I see hundreds of juveniles born every year. most from parents kept inside all year round
- aldabra is quite easily bred too, I know of complete indoor enclosures where the animals produce viable clutches almost every year.
- Galapagos: most of the animals currently in europe are either of unclear origin or simply crossbreeds of subspecies. that is why zoos don't want to breed them on a regular basis. (that and the fact that it's not easy to relocate reptiles that grow to such a big size)
- african spurred: I see hundreds of juveniles born every year. most from parents kept inside all year round
- aldabra is quite easily bred too, I know of complete indoor enclosures where the animals produce viable clutches almost every year.
- Galapagos: most of the animals currently in europe are either of unclear origin or simply crossbreeds of subspecies. that is why zoos don't want to breed them on a regular basis. (that and the fact that it's not easy to relocate reptiles that grow to such a big size)
forumbully
Well-Known Member
on the giant tortoises:
- african spurred: I see hundreds of juveniles born every year. most from parents kept inside all year round
- aldabra is quite easily bred too, I know of complete indoor enclosures where the animals produce viable clutches almost every year.
- Galapagos: most of the animals currently in europe are either of unclear origin or simply crossbreeds of subspecies. that is why zoos don't want to breed them on a regular basis. (that and the fact that it's not easy to relocate reptiles that grow to such a big size)
on the crocs:
Direct sunlight is indeed very good for most reptiles, but allthough I don't agree with Jurek on temp requirments, I still don't see the use of outdoor exhibits for tropical crocs. maybe in the mediterranean area but everything more north just hasn't enough hot months to justify it. Of course there are exceptions and those zoos that do have the space may choose to build one. but they are the exception, not the rule.
- african spurred: I see hundreds of juveniles born every year. most from parents kept inside all year round
- aldabra is quite easily bred too, I know of complete indoor enclosures where the animals produce viable clutches almost every year.
- Galapagos: most of the animals currently in europe are either of unclear origin or simply crossbreeds of subspecies. that is why zoos don't want to breed them on a regular basis. (that and the fact that it's not easy to relocate reptiles that grow to such a big size)
on the crocs:
Direct sunlight is indeed very good for most reptiles, but allthough I don't agree with Jurek on temp requirments, I still don't see the use of outdoor exhibits for tropical crocs. maybe in the mediterranean area but everything more north just hasn't enough hot months to justify it. Of course there are exceptions and those zoos that do have the space may choose to build one. but they are the exception, not the rule.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@forumbully: I'd say: why not try it? It might only be a short period of time such outdoor exhibits can be used during the year, but the crocs will surely enjoy them just as much as many tropical mammals (and birds) enjoy the time they are kept outside.
forumbully
Well-Known Member
when you're talking about a big park with a lot of space, ok.
but most zoos in western europe have a lack of space. then an enclosure you can only use for about 5 months a year is downright a stupid loss of valuable space. especially if it's a big one for several large crocs.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@forumbully: A lot of outdoor exhibits for tropical, cold-intolerant animals in zoos would thus be "a stupid loss of valuable space". In regard to the crocs: their outdoor area could be used for a different, cold-tolerant species during the colder seasons.
forumbully
Well-Known Member
I don't think that's a valid point
the nr of species that really cannot go outdoors during wintermonths is very small. most mammals and birds are quite tolerant, making it just a few days to maybe weeks at the most they cannot go outdoors. a big difference with tropical reptiles
where are you going to put your cold-tolerant species when the wheather is fine and your crocs can go outdoors?
again I say: I'm not opposed to outdoor croc exhibits, but only if you have a lot of space as a zoo. Most zoos are confined to a limited area with little to no option to expand, for those zoos it would not be the smartest choise. Besides crocs aren't that popular with visitors.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@forumbully: Oh, I do think it's a valid point. There are more than just a "very small" number of exotic mammal and bird species that are not very tolerant in regard to cold, or rather, wet and cold weather (as common in Europe). Bongos, okapis, neotropical otter species, manatees and in certain areas of Europe elephants, both hippo species, giraffes, a bunch of primate species etc. immediately spring up in my mind. So the difference is not that big, if at all.
I'd keep the cold-tolerant species in a closeby exhibit and connect their and the then empty croc exhibit during the cold seasons.
And I say again: I think that outdoor exhibits for crocodilians are even possible in zoos that are limited in terms of exhibit size, if designed in a clever way.
"Besides crocs aren't that popular with visitors." Given the talk we had about big & small crocs above, I somehow doubt that.
I'd keep the cold-tolerant species in a closeby exhibit and connect their and the then empty croc exhibit during the cold seasons.
And I say again: I think that outdoor exhibits for crocodilians are even possible in zoos that are limited in terms of exhibit size, if designed in a clever way.
"Besides crocs aren't that popular with visitors." Given the talk we had about big & small crocs above, I somehow doubt that.
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forumbully
Well-Known Member
there is no manatee outdoor exhibit anywhere in europe, so they don't count in this discussion. All mammals you name can be outdoors during winter, they just need acces to a heated environment. only during very harsh weather (extreme frost, extreme rain, ...) do they have to stay inside. (I've seen okapi, giraffe, ... outside in the snow, just to name a few)
Ok those conditions exist in Northern Europe, but that is just as representative as southern Europe where a lot of animals including reptiles can stay outdoors for most of the year.
But let me make a practical example:
- a friend of mine keeps macaws, cockatoos and various tropical birds. All these animals have year round access to the outdoor aviary. They do spend more time inside during winter, but still go outside several times a day.
- I keep several of my tropical reptiles e.g. spurred tortoises, green waterdragons outdoors roughly from may untill september. But they do venture inside by themselves during the night. As soon as temp drops below 15°C I keep them inside because I notice loss in appetite, less activity, ... And during winter I don't even think of putting them outside.
Notice the difference? a warmblooded creature, even though from the tropics, can go briefly outside, even though circumstances aren't optimal. For a reptile this could be lethal.
And my statement that crocs aren't popular?
They aren't. Yes, they attract attention when they are on display. but "Joe Blow" goes to the zoo to see elephants, lions, bears and such. not to see crocodiles, no matter how big they are.
Ok those conditions exist in Northern Europe, but that is just as representative as southern Europe where a lot of animals including reptiles can stay outdoors for most of the year.
But let me make a practical example:
- a friend of mine keeps macaws, cockatoos and various tropical birds. All these animals have year round access to the outdoor aviary. They do spend more time inside during winter, but still go outside several times a day.
- I keep several of my tropical reptiles e.g. spurred tortoises, green waterdragons outdoors roughly from may untill september. But they do venture inside by themselves during the night. As soon as temp drops below 15°C I keep them inside because I notice loss in appetite, less activity, ... And during winter I don't even think of putting them outside.
Notice the difference? a warmblooded creature, even though from the tropics, can go briefly outside, even though circumstances aren't optimal. For a reptile this could be lethal.
And my statement that crocs aren't popular?
They aren't. Yes, they attract attention when they are on display. but "Joe Blow" goes to the zoo to see elephants, lions, bears and such. not to see crocodiles, no matter how big they are.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
Why don't manatees count? Because they are cold-intolerant mammals? The circumstance that there is no outdoor exhibit for them in Europe underlines my argumentation.
All the mammals mentioned can indeed be outside in the winter-but only for a limited time and only during apt weather conditions. Most of the cold seasons, they're kept indoors.
Please don't use the term "hot-blooded" under such circumstances. A racy latina or latin lover, given your sexual orientation, might be described as "hot-blooded"-but most mammalian/ avian blood isn't any hotter than that of a "cold-blooded" species. Most mammalian and avian species are homeothermic, endothermic and tachymetabolic while most reptiles, amphibians and fish are poikilothermic, ectothermic and to a certain extent bradymetabolic. Let's use the more correct terms.
What does that mean for your "practical" example? Indeed, most reptile species would have problems with colder temperatures for a longer period of time, due their inability to sustain a body temperature higher than the surronding environment, resulting in severe freeze tissue damage and fatal hypothermia. However, the tolerance of tropical bird and mammal species is significantly different from species to species, also due to the adaptions to their original habitat. While an addax antelope, originally coming from a desert climate where the nights can be more than chilly, does pretty well in the snow, a bongo from the tropical African jungle will end up with severe freezes of its acra and fatal hypothermia if left unprotected in the cold for a longer period of time. So will most of your friend's parrots, if not provided with a frost-protected warm shelter (as your friend seems to have). In the end, given the local European weather, also their outdoor enclosures might be considered as a "very stupid waste of space" during the cold seasons.
As for crocs not being popular: I like to measure the popularity of a species among the average visitors on how often certain species are displayed as "typical zoo animals" in books, TV shows, cartoons, movies and other aspects of popular culture. Usually, crocodiles, especially large ones, are always among the species mentioned, next to the charismatic mammalian megafauna you pointed at. And don't forget the growth of reptile zoos that are aimed at another part of customers: a growing number of reptile fans (as a result of more reptiles kept privately as pets)-of whom you and me appear to be part of.
All the mammals mentioned can indeed be outside in the winter-but only for a limited time and only during apt weather conditions. Most of the cold seasons, they're kept indoors.
Please don't use the term "hot-blooded" under such circumstances. A racy latina or latin lover, given your sexual orientation, might be described as "hot-blooded"-but most mammalian/ avian blood isn't any hotter than that of a "cold-blooded" species. Most mammalian and avian species are homeothermic, endothermic and tachymetabolic while most reptiles, amphibians and fish are poikilothermic, ectothermic and to a certain extent bradymetabolic. Let's use the more correct terms.
What does that mean for your "practical" example? Indeed, most reptile species would have problems with colder temperatures for a longer period of time, due their inability to sustain a body temperature higher than the surronding environment, resulting in severe freeze tissue damage and fatal hypothermia. However, the tolerance of tropical bird and mammal species is significantly different from species to species, also due to the adaptions to their original habitat. While an addax antelope, originally coming from a desert climate where the nights can be more than chilly, does pretty well in the snow, a bongo from the tropical African jungle will end up with severe freezes of its acra and fatal hypothermia if left unprotected in the cold for a longer period of time. So will most of your friend's parrots, if not provided with a frost-protected warm shelter (as your friend seems to have). In the end, given the local European weather, also their outdoor enclosures might be considered as a "very stupid waste of space" during the cold seasons.
As for crocs not being popular: I like to measure the popularity of a species among the average visitors on how often certain species are displayed as "typical zoo animals" in books, TV shows, cartoons, movies and other aspects of popular culture. Usually, crocodiles, especially large ones, are always among the species mentioned, next to the charismatic mammalian megafauna you pointed at. And don't forget the growth of reptile zoos that are aimed at another part of customers: a growing number of reptile fans (as a result of more reptiles kept privately as pets)-of whom you and me appear to be part of.
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sooty mangabey
Well-Known Member
A few comments on various points posted on this thread...
London's Komodo dragon house - not perfect, but pretty good - has a small outside area. I'm not sure how often this gets used, but when the dragons have been outside it does make a great sight - it is just better, somehow, to see an animal with the sky above. I say this from a visitor perspective, not from an animal health perspective.
Is it a waste of space to give large reptiles an outside area which will only be of use for a short period each year? I don't think so. I cannot think of a single zoo which doesn't 'waste' space - and not just the space which is wasted on meerkats et al. London, for example, has a number of rather dull lawns, some sort of garden designed, I think, to demonstrate water conservation, and a whole host of other 'space-wasters'.
And would a spectacular display be popular? Yes, I really do think it would be. But then I believe that pretty much anything can be sold to the public if it is presented with panache, and if the marketing is intelligent. The example of Prague has been cited above, and this is a valid one.
While Nile crocodiles may not be conversationally valid, I do like to see them in zoos. They are a truly iconic zoo species.
London's Komodo dragon house - not perfect, but pretty good - has a small outside area. I'm not sure how often this gets used, but when the dragons have been outside it does make a great sight - it is just better, somehow, to see an animal with the sky above. I say this from a visitor perspective, not from an animal health perspective.
Is it a waste of space to give large reptiles an outside area which will only be of use for a short period each year? I don't think so. I cannot think of a single zoo which doesn't 'waste' space - and not just the space which is wasted on meerkats et al. London, for example, has a number of rather dull lawns, some sort of garden designed, I think, to demonstrate water conservation, and a whole host of other 'space-wasters'.
And would a spectacular display be popular? Yes, I really do think it would be. But then I believe that pretty much anything can be sold to the public if it is presented with panache, and if the marketing is intelligent. The example of Prague has been cited above, and this is a valid one.
While Nile crocodiles may not be conversationally valid, I do like to see them in zoos. They are a truly iconic zoo species.
forumbully
Well-Known Member
@ sun wukong: you know what? have it your way.
You don't seem to see the difference in mammal versus reptile husbandry I'm trying to show you. so just keep hoping for lots and lots of outdoor croc exhibits.
You don't seem to see the difference in mammal versus reptile husbandry I'm trying to show you. so just keep hoping for lots and lots of outdoor croc exhibits.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@forumbully: why so bitter and displeased? I just pointed out that the arguments you came up with are debatable, whether you like it or not. As for the outdoor croc exhibits: well, thank you. Let's also hope for more outdoor exhibits for sloths, larger reptiles and amphibians...to be erected in the near future. And who knows: someday, we might see the first European outdoor zoo exhibit for manatees...
forumbully
Well-Known Member
I am neither bitter nor displeased.
I know my job and have advised zoos in Belgium, Holland and Germany on reptile/amphibian enclosures, both indoors and outdoors. I know what is feasable and what the pros and cons are. and you can disagree with me all you want, but when it comes to outdoor croc enclosures, for most zoos, the cons outnumber the pros.
I know my job and have advised zoos in Belgium, Holland and Germany on reptile/amphibian enclosures, both indoors and outdoors. I know what is feasable and what the pros and cons are. and you can disagree with me all you want, but when it comes to outdoor croc enclosures, for most zoos, the cons outnumber the pros.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
Your previous post conveys a different impression.
I also happen to know my job. Therefore, I know and appretiate the health benefits outdoor husbandry can bring with it, in particular when reptiles are involved. So please do not treat me as an ignorant layman. Thanks.
forumbully
Well-Known Member
I'm keeping it cool. don't worry
As said:
I'm neither bitter nor displeased. nor do I argue any pro sun wukong has stated.
I just don't think they compare to the cons when it comes to large reptiles like crocs.
@ sun wukong: I DON'T think of you as an ignorant layman, but I find it weird that you implie that bongos, okapi and such are as weather sensitive as any tropical reptilian because:
- In my experience tropical reptiles can go outside as of 18°C. and even so with caution, because severe temperature differences can be dangerous. for most mammals this range lies with 10 - 15°C and can even be much lower when hotspots are provide. making those mammals use there outdoor exhibits far longer and more often than reptiles.
and to state a few further cons:
- UV intensity is not the same in our regions than it is in the tropics. Still beneficial for reptiles but nothing that can't be dealt with otherwise (see next point)
- there are various materials that allow good light access with mimimum loss of UV, there are also a lot of very fine quality electric light sources that provide more appropriate UV than the sun in our regions.
- providing an indoor and an outdoor exhibit for crocs can cause serious problems regarding territoriality as you basically change their territory twice a year. same goes for access to the outdoors. if it's in one animals territory, it may not let other animals use it.
hell, this type problem even occurs without shifting animals from their exhibits.
- and the allready long stated fact that most zoos have limited space and could use it better.
again, there are a few zoos that have outdoor exhibits, but the ones I know of either have had problems regarding one of the statements above or the animals are still quite young/exhibits quite new so problems may still pop up in the future.
I see no harm in keeping reptiles outdoors: species from our region for example are hardly ever seen in zoos, lot of options there. or why not put some waterdragons in an aviary with birds during summer months, ... But I would discourage most zoos of building a big outdoor exhibit specifically for tropical reptiles. just build a good quality greenhouse instead. you save the space of the outdoor part and have a lot more control on the wellbeing of your animals and a lot more options to build a realistic looking exhibit.
As said:
I'm neither bitter nor displeased. nor do I argue any pro sun wukong has stated.
I just don't think they compare to the cons when it comes to large reptiles like crocs.
@ sun wukong: I DON'T think of you as an ignorant layman, but I find it weird that you implie that bongos, okapi and such are as weather sensitive as any tropical reptilian because:
- In my experience tropical reptiles can go outside as of 18°C. and even so with caution, because severe temperature differences can be dangerous. for most mammals this range lies with 10 - 15°C and can even be much lower when hotspots are provide. making those mammals use there outdoor exhibits far longer and more often than reptiles.
and to state a few further cons:
- UV intensity is not the same in our regions than it is in the tropics. Still beneficial for reptiles but nothing that can't be dealt with otherwise (see next point)
- there are various materials that allow good light access with mimimum loss of UV, there are also a lot of very fine quality electric light sources that provide more appropriate UV than the sun in our regions.
- providing an indoor and an outdoor exhibit for crocs can cause serious problems regarding territoriality as you basically change their territory twice a year. same goes for access to the outdoors. if it's in one animals territory, it may not let other animals use it.
hell, this type problem even occurs without shifting animals from their exhibits.
- and the allready long stated fact that most zoos have limited space and could use it better.
again, there are a few zoos that have outdoor exhibits, but the ones I know of either have had problems regarding one of the statements above or the animals are still quite young/exhibits quite new so problems may still pop up in the future.
I see no harm in keeping reptiles outdoors: species from our region for example are hardly ever seen in zoos, lot of options there. or why not put some waterdragons in an aviary with birds during summer months, ... But I would discourage most zoos of building a big outdoor exhibit specifically for tropical reptiles. just build a good quality greenhouse instead. you save the space of the outdoor part and have a lot more control on the wellbeing of your animals and a lot more options to build a realistic looking exhibit.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@forumbully: I rather implied that according to your argumentation, building outdoor exhibits in European zoos for such tropical, cold-intolerant mammals could also be considered a waste of space. Remember this year's weather in most parts of Europe? So far, there was hardly a longer period of time with apt temperature for any of the mentioned species, may they be mammals, birds or reptiles. One could thus question the necessity of outdoor exhibits, given the short amount of time they are practically in use and think of other ways to "use it better". Still, I do think that most zoo species, if possible, should have access to outdoor exhibits.
As for:
"- UV intensity is not the same in our regions than it is in the tropics. Still beneficial for reptiles but nothing that can't be dealt with otherwise (see next point)
- there are various materials that allow good light access with mimimum loss of UV, there are also a lot of very fine quality electric light sources that provide more appropriate UV than the sun in our regions."
None of the artifical lights on the market can provide a really 100% replacement of natural sun light, also in regard to the circadian daylight intensity. Additionally, the "great outdoors" also provide the animals with plenty of enrichment and stimuli, even it's just some occasional scents carried over by the wind.
Regarding territorial aggression: that might be an occasional problem, but given proper and professional exhibit and animal management (as seen in working outdoor exhibits elsewhere), potential risks can be avoided or at least decreased.
I didn't demand nor insist on "big outdoor exhibit specifically for tropical reptiles", but on adequate outdoor exhibits for reptiles, if possible, as a beneficial addition to the needed indoor housing. As for the "good quality greenhouse": I'm always wondering about the message a money - and energy - consuming zoo building conveys to the visitors in terms of practical environment protection and sustainable management of diminishing resources...
As for:
"- UV intensity is not the same in our regions than it is in the tropics. Still beneficial for reptiles but nothing that can't be dealt with otherwise (see next point)
- there are various materials that allow good light access with mimimum loss of UV, there are also a lot of very fine quality electric light sources that provide more appropriate UV than the sun in our regions."
None of the artifical lights on the market can provide a really 100% replacement of natural sun light, also in regard to the circadian daylight intensity. Additionally, the "great outdoors" also provide the animals with plenty of enrichment and stimuli, even it's just some occasional scents carried over by the wind.
Regarding territorial aggression: that might be an occasional problem, but given proper and professional exhibit and animal management (as seen in working outdoor exhibits elsewhere), potential risks can be avoided or at least decreased.
I didn't demand nor insist on "big outdoor exhibit specifically for tropical reptiles", but on adequate outdoor exhibits for reptiles, if possible, as a beneficial addition to the needed indoor housing. As for the "good quality greenhouse": I'm always wondering about the message a money - and energy - consuming zoo building conveys to the visitors in terms of practical environment protection and sustainable management of diminishing resources...