Damian Aspinall: You all know my views on zoos prove me wrong

[Damian Aspinall]

All of your released animals have either died rather quickly (hyena, most of the gorillas), have had to be taken back into human care (the rest of the gorillas), or have never actually been released (I think you sent rhinos to Africa which fall under here?). So you're right, they do not all die, but none of your attempts have succeeded and only caused animal suffering for the sake of a publicity stunt.




The animal is a subspecific hybrid and I'd like to at least give the real Damian (whether that be you or someone else) the benefit of the doubt and assume he'd know what animals his parks keep... In any case, wasn't the original plan to release the hybrid youngster along with his parents (including the Central African subspecies) into South Africa? Why are the parents no longer going?

~Thylo

So our Gorillas have a 94% survival rate the Hyena is still alive the primates have a 91% survival rate we have re wilded 8 rhino only one has died and had over 30 offspring all the bison survived the cheetah are well and doing well the Mandrills are doing well none have died etc etc so i don't know why you have this view ..there have been set back but you would expect that
the important thing here is to have a conversation which is informed not guess work

 

[Ursus]

So am I. I would like to actually see supposed "Damian Aspinall" to actually prove he is the real one. This could all be a troll and this conversation is all pointless.

All someone has to do is make that call I guess

 

[Damian Aspinall]

May I ask you what you believe to be species with conservation value and which species don't? I'm curious

In captivity if Im honest not really any as I believe if there is a need for captivity the you should do in in situ preferably protecting small wild pockets very well like we do in Africa and Java and SA

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

All someone has to do is make that call I guess

Yes, that is what I am trying to do, @Damian Aspinall please check your inbox

 

[Ursus]

In captivity if Im honest not really any as I believe if there is a need for captivity the you should do in in situ preferably protecting small wild pockets very well like we do in Africa and Java and SA

So the more so to speak, semi-captive settings?

 

[Damian Aspinall]

So you are saying the ratel to be released's parents were of the same subspecies?

i understand they are SA species but i am double checking

 

[CheeseChameleon1945]

So our Gorillas have a 94% survival rate the Hyena is still alive the primates have a 91% survival rate we have re wilded 8 rhino only one has died and had over 30 offspring all the bison survived the cheetah are well and doing well the Mandrills are doing well none have died etc etc so i don't know why you have this view ..there have been set back but you would expect that
the important thing here is to have a conversation which is informed not guess work

But conversations build on statements like this. If this so called "civilized conversation" wanted to progress, we shouldn't be stating things like this. Your not proving much here, and if you decided to join zoochat to clear up this controversy, that is not going to happen. There will always be controversy, and you really can't change someone's point of view that easily. You have been asked plenty of questions already, and you have not been giving us clear answers.

 

[Damian Aspinall]

But conversations build on statements like this. If this so called "civilized conversation" wanted to progress, we shouldn't be stating things like this. Your not proving much here, and if you decided to join zoochat to clear up this controversy, that is not going to happen. There will always be controversy, and you really can't change someone's point of view that easily. You have been asked plenty of questions already, and you have not been giving us clear answers.

i think i have and i am doing my best

 

[grevy's zebra]

Ok, so I'm just adding my input on this, that no one should believe zoos are saviors to animals. Most are, but some are very much not (Joe Exotic). On the other side, not all zoos are awful, like you say @Damian Aspinall. There are several examples of zoos having successful breeding programs and releasing to the wild, even in zoo's early days. A perfect example of this is re-releasing American Bison back when it was endangered, and Smithsonian and several others saved it, and there are more examples, like the Przewalski Horse and the Hawaiian Crow. Zoos in the AZA, or the EAZA, are all connected and breeding to release and preserve species, even if they are going slow. I can keep going, but everyone knows that this thread isn't going to stop after someone who joined in April posted.

 

[ThylacineAlive]

i understand they are SA species but i am double checking

They are a species which ranges all the way to India... You said yourself, they have subspecies, you're releasing impure genetics into an otherwise pure population. That's not conservation, that's poisoning.

So our Gorillas have a 94% survival rate the Hyena is still alive the primates have a 91% survival rate we have re wilded 8 rhino only one has died and had over 30 offspring all the bison survived the cheetah are well and doing well the Mandrills are doing well none have died etc etc so i don't know why you have this view ..there have been set back but you would expect that
the important thing here is to have a conversation which is informed not guess work

If you are really Damian we both know your gorillas do not have a 94% survival rating a 94% death rating maybe.

~Thylo

 

[Damian Aspinall]

Ok, so I'm just adding my input on this, that no one should believe zoos are saviors to animals. Most are, but some are very much not (Joe Exotic). On the other side, not all zoos are awful, like you say @Damian Aspinall. There are several examples of zoos having successful breeding programs and releasing to the wild, even in zoo's early days. A perfect example of this is re-releasing American Bison back when it was endangered, and Smithsonian and several others saved it, and there are more examples, like the Przewalski Horse and the Hawaiian Crow. Zoos in the AZA, or the EAZA, are all connected and breeding to release and preserve species, even if they are going slow. I can keep going, but everyone knows that this thread isn't going to stop after someone who joined in April posted.

Of course some work has been done around this subject and i am all for that BUT does it justify zoos ? You see i don't think so..secondly a lot of this work could of been done in situ not in zoos as there is no process to this. IF there had of been a process along the lines of a group of learned experts had looked at the problem and discounted every other alternative then maybe but that did not and does not happen.

 

[sooty mangabey]

i have never been hateful

I'm going to run with the idea that this is indeed the real Damian Aspinall. May not be, in which case an interesting discussion; may be, in which case, a slightly weird intervention. If it is him, I'd have to hand it to him that it shows something to enter this arena. Not quite up there with Priam entering the Greek camp to plead for the return of the body of his son hector, but vaguely impressive nonetheless.

But let's talk about 'hateful'. It is entirely possible that D Aspinall has been misquoted - he wouldn't be the first person to have this happen - but comments like this - "There's no excuse for any zoo today" - don't leave a lot of room for manouevre. In suggesting, as he has, many times, that zoos are inherently cruel, and that, by implicit extension, those who work in them, and support them, are also cruel, and that all such places should be closed, I would argue that he is being 'hateful'.

I have to say that my own feelings towards him are pretty strong. I have a grudging respect for the anti-captivity campaigners who appear to argue from a position of sincerity, even if I do not share their views (obviously); but someone who still presides over two zoos; someone of whom there are countless photos, romping with tigers and gorillas; someone who is so willing to condemn others while adopting a stance that suggests that his own organization is beyond reproach....? Yes, that does stir hateful feeling sin my heart.

Enough from me. I have no real desire to engage in discussion with "Damian Aspinall", real version or amusing fake. He will see things his way, and i will see things mine.

 

[Damian Aspinall]

They are a species which ranges all the way to India... You said yourself, they have subspecies, you're releasing impure genetics into an otherwise pure population. That's not conservation, that's poisoning.



If you are really Damian we both know your gorillas do not have a 94% survival rating a 94% death rating maybe.

~Thylo

please call amos courage at port lympne the overseas director and he will give you exactly the %
i assure you you are incorrect. please be civil and lets work together and learn from each other

 

[ThylacineAlive]

Of course some work has been done around this subject and i am all for that BUT does it justify zoos ? You see i don't think so..secondly a lot of this work could of been done in situ not in zoos as there is no process to this. IF there had of been a process along the lines of a group of learned experts had looked at the problem and discounted every other alternative then maybe but that did not and does not happen.

Again, what do you say about the many species which still rely on captive programs for survival?

~Thylo

 

[grevy's zebra]

Of course some work has been done around this subject and i am all for that BUT does it justify zoos ? You see i don't think so..secondly a lot of this work could of been done in situ not in zoos as there is no process to this. IF there had of been a process along the lines of a group of learned experts had looked at the problem and discounted every other alternative then maybe but that did not and does not happen.

Yes, it does. I can keep going on it, that they also helped the Scimitar Horned Oryx start making a comeback. And @ThylacineAlive just said it. The Fernandina Island Tortoise is another example, and the Hawaiian Crow gets roped in again

I'm enjoying this. I'm gonna go get some lemonade. Hard boiled eggs aren't enough .

I’d make popcorn, but I have an hour break for lunch. Also, can I just say that the war is starting.

 

[Damian Aspinall]

I'm going to run with the idea that this is indeed the real Damian Aspinall. May not be, in which case an interesting discussion; may be, in which case, a slightly weird intervention. If it is him, I'd have to hand it to him that it shows something to enter this arena. Not quite up there with Priam entering the Greek camp to plead for the return of the body of his son hector, but vaguely impressive nonetheless.

But let's talk about 'hateful'. It is entirely possible that D Aspinall has been misquoted - he wouldn't be the first person to have this happen - but comments like this - "There's no excuse for any zoo today" - don't leave a lot of room for manouevre. In suggesting, as he has, many times, that zoos are inherently cruel, and that, by implicit extension, those who work in them, and support them, are also cruel, and that all such places should be closed, I would argue that he is being 'hateful'.

I have to say that my own feelings towards him are pretty strong. I have a grudging respect for the anti-captivity campaigners who appear to argue from a position of sincerity, even if I do not share their views (obviously); but someone who still presides over two zoos; someone of whom there are countless photos, romping with tigers and gorillas; someone who is so willing to condemn others while adopting a stance that suggests that his own organization is beyond reproach....? Yes, that does stir hateful feeling sin my heart.

Enough from me. I have no real desire to engage in discussion with "Damian Aspinall", real version or amusing fake. He will see things his way, and i will see things mine.

Obviously i get misquoted and nothing i have said is meant to be disrespectful infact in my paper ?article I said that i do not wish harm just provoke a debate ...
I do have a different view to you re zoos but that is ok i respect that but my views are my own and i am passionate about what i believe and passionate about the welfare of animals

 

[Damian Aspinall]

Yes, it does. I can keep going on it, that they also helped the Scimitar Horned Oryx start making a comeback. And @ThylacineAlive just said it. The Fernandina Island Tortoise is another example, and the Hawaiian Crow gets roped in again

I’d make popcorn, but I have an hour break for lunch. Also, can I just say that the war is starting.

this work could of been done in Situ and simply does not justify the millions of animals in substandard cages around the world. Please don't talk of war that is so silly

 

[Ursus]

We could actually have a very good discussion with each other that might actually give more intel to each party here how one other thinks

 

[Ursus]

I honestly think that if this is indeed Damien, this is a very good opportunity for us all to get to understand his vision more. Maybe even get a tiny bit of respect for what he tries to, which is in it's core concept: releasing animals in the wild. A very good thing.

 

[Damian Aspinall]

So what happens to the animals that are extinct in the wild or nearly so? Or the populations which only persist due to continuous reintroductions?

~Thylo

like the mountain gorilla 200 a few years ago now a 1000 ?? Or the White Rhino similar story..numbers in wild have increased substantially without zoos. you need to understand that if it can be done in situ then it should be not just jump straight to the zoo argument