Damian Aspinall: You all know my views on zoos prove me wrong

Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
In our case (which I admit is a highly unusual one), in contrast to what you have said about the prevalence of hybridization and disease in animals in captivity / zoos our focal species are actually subject to far greater pressures from hybridization with Callithrix jacchus and Callithrix pencillata and disease outbreaks such as yellow fever in the wild. These in fact ARE the principal threats to the species in the wild.

So much so in fact that some form of ex-situ management (in zoos or otherwise) may be even required to prevent the genetic extinction of our species from hybridization with the invasive species that I have mentioned or metapopulations being literally wiped out by yellow fever. Regarding, the case of one of our two focal species, the buffy tufted marmoset (Callithrix aurita), we have so far found that the most genetically pure individuals are actually held ex-situ within zoos.

I am mentioning this specifically in the context of this debate because you have raised the issue of both disease and hybridization. I think our case here in Brazil clearly illustrates that it is far more nuanced a topic than you suggest it to be.
Click to expand...
I can fully understand how nuanced this subject is and of course not one size fits all however my focus is to encourage anyone who will listen to not just accept the zoo is the final and only answer but to exhaust all other avenues and if some form of captivity or semi captivity of wildlife then it must be preferred to do that in country of origin if possible.
 
Mr. Zootycoon said:
Damian, am I correct if I say that with "sub standard" you mean insufficient from an animal welfare point of view?

If so, I'm (again) interested to hear from you on what metrics (behavioural, endocrinological, etc.) you base the assertion on that a substantial part, of not all, zoo animals suffer from living in a zoo.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your comment and yes i do mean from a animal welfare point. This is from my own experiences and knowledge of watching animals in zoos for many years and of course some of the latest research from people like Bob Jacobs of Colorado University .....Considering the poor enclosures 99% of animals in zoos it is not really surprising.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
Quite a few people in this thread have asked you to cite at least some of the CE mammal species in European collections whose captive populations you suggest are mere hybrids, and thus far you haven't answered this question - it is somewhat difficult for the members of this site to disprove claims which are never actually expanded on by yourself when asked.

On a related note, you have also yet to acknowledge the point made by several people in this thread that the categories of "Extinct in the Wild", "Endangered" and "Threatened" also include species which are of conservation significance, not merely "Critically Endangered" - as such, the number of species in captivity requiring no conservation action is rather lower than the 95% cited interchangeably for CE and unthreatened species.

Anyhow, good to see this overall discussion going a bit more smoothly now.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your comment. I have given the name of Amos Courage at Port Lympne to quite a few people who have asked for this research and not one has bothered to reach out. We spent a lot of time researching these points of hybrids disease and genetically bottle necked species and anyone who needs to learn more has that contact info.
 
Rayane said:
Out of curiosity, what should be done with all the non-subspecific individuals in captivity? They can be lions as well as turquoise tanagers, both of them non rewildable am I right?
Click to expand...
In this category if they are not able to be re wilded then i would hold species only for there lifetime.
As stated there is a need to rescue animals from circuses or zoos that cannot look after the animals ...
 
Shirokuma said:
Can you elaborate on this? What evidence is it based on? How will this ‘storm’ materialise? And what is it based on?
Click to expand...
This is based on what is beginning to happen with some zoos around the world like Barcelona and a couple of zoos in France where they are being shut down or taken over with a focus on re wilding. Secondly thousands of people reach out to me and friends with a similar goal and shared goals. There is also rumblings in the political spectrum about the future of zoos. As i said it is just a headwind today but the movement is building. I know of at least two documentaries being made as well which will only add to the pressure and i have no doubt will unrest the listless public on this subject who will start to be more demanding of the results of zoos.Hope this helps and thank you for your interest
 
Damian Aspinall said:
This is based on what is beginning to happen with some zoos around the world like Barcelona and a couple of zoos in France where they are being shut down or taken over with a focus on re wilding. Secondly thousands of people reach out to me and friends with a similar goal and shared goals. There is also rumblings in the political spectrum about the future of zoos. As i said it is just a headwind today but the movement is building. I know of at least two documentaries being made as well which will only add to the pressure and i have no doubt will unrest the listless public on this subject who will start to be more demanding of the results of zoos.Hope this helps and thank you for your interest
Click to expand...

Barcelona continues to function as a zoo. Zoo de Pont-Scorff in France which was taken over by a group with an apparent focus on re-wilding is currently a complete shambles which is unable to take care of its animals. Thousands of people might reach out to you but millions go to zoos, recognise their worth and support their work.
 
Damian Aspinall said:
Thank you for your comment and yes i do mean from a animal welfare point. This is from my own experiences and knowledge of watching animals in zoos for many years and of course some of the latest research from people like Bob Jacobs of Colorado University .....Considering the poor enclosures 99% of animals in zoos it is not really surprising.
Click to expand...
And how exactly does the research of Bob Javobs proves anything about animal welfare? I fail to find a comparative study between wild and captive individuals. In general I fail to find much comparative studies between wild and captive individuals, and one about cetaceans that I found actually found lowered stress levels for captive animals compared to wild animals. Seen as the logical zero-hypothesis would be that animals in zoos would have equal stress levels as those in the wild, I'm very curious what studies you have found that actually disprove this zero-hypothesis in a negative way.
 
Shirokuma said:
Barcelona continues to function as a zoo. Zoo de Pont-Scorff in France which was taken over by a group with an apparent focus on re-wilding is currently a complete shambles which is unable to take care of its animals. Thousands of people might reach out to you but millions go to zoos, recognise their worth and support their work.
Click to expand...
Barcelona intention is to re wild as many animals as possible according to the council that own it which is fantastic and we are aiming to help them achieve this Point Scorff and doing a very good job in a very difficult situation and again we are helping them in any way possible and although they had some earlier problems that are getting themselves organised.Sadly millions of people are completely mislead by zoos by the lies and myths but believe me that is changing and not to soon in my humble opinion. Thank you for your comment
 
Damian Aspinall said:
Thank you for your comment. I have given the name of Amos Courage at Port Lympne to quite a few people who have asked for this research and not one has bothered to reach out. We spent a lot of time researching these points of hybrids disease and genetically bottle necked species and anyone who needs to learn more has that contact info.
Click to expand...
If it's so easy to find his research, why can't I find no published studies from him about this subject?
 
Jarne said:
If it's so easy to find his research, why can't I find no published studies from him about this subject?
Click to expand...
I did not say it was easy to find .. I said if you want to know how we came to our conclusions reach out to Amos Courage at Port Lympne who carried out this work for us ...
 
Jarne said:
And how exactly does the research of Bob Javobs proves anything about animal welfare? I fail to find a comparative study between wild and captive individuals. In general I fail to find much comparative studies between wild and captive individuals, and one about cetaceans that I found actually found lowered stress levels for captive animals compared to wild animals. Seen as the logical zero-hypothesis would be that animals in zoos would have equal stress levels as those in the wild, I'm very curious what studies you have found that actually disprove this zero-hypothesis in a negative way.
Click to expand...
Have you read it ? I think its pretty obvious
 
Damian Aspinall said:
Barcelona intention is to re wild as many animals as possible according to the council that own it which is fantastic and we are aiming to help them achieve this Point Scorff and doing a very good job in a very difficult situation and again we are helping them in any way possible and although they had some earlier problems that are getting themselves organised.Sadly millions of people are completely mislead by zoos by the lies and myths but believe me that is changing and not to soon in my humble opinion. Thank you for your comment
Click to expand...
Hello again, Damian

There are animals at Port Lympne and Howletts that are not part of future rewilding projects. Are they still allowed to breed?
 
Damian Aspinall said:
Have you read it ? I think its pretty obvious
Click to expand...
If it's so obvious, then point out which study you believe to be so important. If you want to be taken serious you really have to be a little bit less vague. I did found some non-scientific articles about a lone elephant and a lone orka, but you can't seriously think that those are representative of the zoo population?
 
Last edited:
Damian Aspinall said:
I can fully understand how nuanced this subject is and of course not one size fits all however my focus is to encourage anyone who will listen to not just accept the zoo is the final and only answer but to exhaust all other avenues and if some form of captivity or semi captivity of wildlife then it must be preferred to do that in country of origin if possible.
Click to expand...

We don't and never will accept captivity in zoos for our focal species as the final and only answer.

However, time is of the essence for these primates and sadly we do not have the luxury of time on our side (these species should have been the recipients of a conservation program and recognized as a conservation priority 30 years ago).

That said, as I've said many times on this thread, I agree with many of the points you (though I do not agree fully with some of your statements) and Carl Jones have raised regarding zoos.
 
Last edited:
Jarne said:
If it's so obvious, then point out which study you believe to be so important. If you want to be taken serious you really have to be a little bit less vague. I did found some non-scientific articles about a lone elephant and a lone orka, but you can't seriously think that those are representative of the zoo population?
Click to expand...
Bob Jacobs study Heading ..the neural cruelty of captivity is a great start.
And if you really think animals do not suffer in captivity then i fear you are really not informed at all.
I have been around captive animals all my life and i can tell you with absolute certainly that all animals suffer terribly in zoos. When there is no conservation case for 95% of species in zoos it makes it even worse.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top