Dartmoor Zoo Dartmoor June 2012 wheelchair use

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diane monkey

Member
Having watched the programme on the tv. I could not wait to vist Dartmoor Zoo. We took several wrong turns on the way as it was badly sign posted.

I visted the web site for information. as my mother is in a wheelchair. which it advised it had several hills.

I was pleased when we arrived to find that it's disabled parking was right outside the restaurant.

The shop was in the corner of the restaurant. a bit like a after thought.

the first bit was fine a bit steep but manageable. as it was tarmac. my mum had to miss seeing the racoons as the walk way was to steep. and the bears because of the step up.

Once past the monkey enclosure thing got worst. as the tarmac disappeared. the path was very unsteady as it was made up of hard rocks. no of it was flat. so agian my mum missed the tigers lions and wolves. The otters were good as they were very active. the birds you could not get close enough to and the path way was too danagerous as it was slopping off to the right. so i had to give up and take my mum back to the car. as the front wheel of the wheelchair had four cracks in the spokes. i continued around the zoo on foot to take photos.

I think that the zoo is a nice place. they could do with sorting out the walk ways. and improving what they have.

i emailed the zoo to tell them of my problems with the zoo.

and this is what they said.

Thank you for taking the time to feedback, and I am sorry you had a mishap here. We very much agree with you that concrete or tarmac needs to replace the hardcore paths up at the tigers, and we do intend to landscape that area creating two switchback turns to reduce the incline, but we have never yet been in a strong enough financial position to undertake the work. Money has always been tight here, and we have been forced to prioritise the animals ahead of infrastructure: that path and the main drive have had to take second place to bringing the shelters for many of the animals up to scratch.

If you don't know the background to DZP, in 2006 the current management team bought the zoo after the previous owner had had his licence revoked for illegal breeding of tigers and was forced to sell. He was almost bankrupt anyway. It was almost totally dilapidated and had massive problems - electrical systems that were illegal in 1985, let alone to modern standards, the water works needed completely replacing, unhealthy animals that needed bringing back from obesity or depression.

We are not a charity like most zoos and don't qualify for many of the grants available to this industry, but we have made enormous progress on very little funding. Our animals are in prime fitness and most of our services (water, power, drainage) are now up to scratch. Many of our paths have been overhauled, but many remain a target for development.

In the interim we have taken what measures we can, informing customers on the website and at the ticket kiosk that our paths are more challenging in some areas, and we also have mobility scooters available.

I'm really glad you still managed to enjoy the park despite your rough experience. We are getting there, I hope you stick with us and come again to see how progress is going in the future.

Many thanks again for the feedback, we take your opinions very seriously.

i think in all i will not be going back for a while.
 
I can't see why zoos parks and others keep saying they have no funding for something like a path fit for wheelchairs (I thought they had to provide a suitable path for disabled persons by law) or am I missing a point here.

Many thanks for the review hope your mother wasn't too disapointed.
 
adrian1963 i agree with you if it is not law it shold be. mum was a little dissappointed.
i can not understand why run dartmoor as a company surley if it was run more like other zoos it would get funding to do the paths.

improving paths is a must. because you need the people through the gates.
 
diane monkey said:
adrian1963 i agree with you if it is not law it shold be. mum was a little dissappointed.
i can not understand why run dartmoor as a company surley if it was run more like other zoos it would get funding to do the paths.

improving paths is a must. because you need the people through the gates.
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I have never been to Dartmoor, so maybe i shouldn't comment, but i will make a couple :

Though i am not a legal expert, i thought like adrian, that there were laws in this country regarding disabled access in facilities open to the public, whether paths being unfit are seen as denying access , i'm not sure, but it probably should be! I know i've read elsewhere that disabled access is a problem in redeveloping the mappins at London.

In defence of the zoo, from what i saw on the tv programme, the animal conditions were not good when the new owners took over and as money was tight, maybe the animals were rightly given initial priority!

However, i would hope once the enclosures are up to scratch, all visitors will have the oppurtunity to appreciate them!
 
Honestly. How many small zoos out there are getting by and developing well *without* royalties from a major Hollywood film?

If they don't have the money for basic upgrades like this they are doing it wrong.
 
adrian1963 said:
I can't see why zoos parks and others keep saying they have no funding for something like a path fit for wheelchairs (I thought they had to provide a suitable path for disabled persons by law) or am I missing a point here.

Many thanks for the review hope your mother wasn't too disapointed.
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adrian1963. There are indeed laws that cover wheelchair access and the law is very strict however, most shops, town centers, zoos and even council run buildings fail to apply the law correctly and that's why the Disability groups take legal action against such places. As an example, if you go into a shop and the shop is a clothes shop with the clothes racks and stalls to close and very tight to pass by that is an offence under the Equality Act which was better known as the Disability Discrimination Act - where part 2 and 3 came into force placing the onus of anyone who provides "goods and services" to comply with the law. Again an example; all shops must have have level access to and from their business, banks must not have their ATM machines to high or have steps to them, doctors surgeries must have access where wheelchair users can look, speak and use the facilities, all shops, and facilities must have induction loops for the heard of hearing. As for poor access when in a zoo or park, again the Law is strict and the fine is classed as being open, which means it has no lower or higher limit. So Dartmoor Zoo and others with poor access do have to comply with the Equality Act and parts of the old non-repealed DDA 2006, there is also legal onus under Insurance laws, Occupiers Legality Act, Building Act and so on. ;)
 
Just got back from Dudley Zoo and was talking to a friend about just this subject so you've beaten me to it.

They had a visit from a disabled group a couple of weeks ago and a couple of things came to light and she expects them to be dealt with in the very near future.

I know the same group are going to visit other zoological collections over the next couple of years and it is rumoured that they will take legal action against collections that are not willing to improve access for the disabled.

Myself I think it's just a case of the collections actually being pointed in the right direction rather than trying to get it right by themselves, so here's hoping in the future people in wheelchairs will be able to enjoy a day at the zoo the same way as everyone else.

EDIT - Will update Dudley Thread later
 
Yawn! How long can Dartmoor keep blaming its shortcomings on the previous management? Its wearing a little thin now after nearly 6 years under new 'management' Other small zoos are growing and positively blooming without the royalties from major hollywood films and book deals.

Just for the record the parks licence was never revoked, it was voluntarily surrendered after a 2 year fruitless search to find new owners for the park-and the former owners were never verging on bankruptcy I think the Mee's were closer to bankruptcy than Ellis Daw ever was!

What little money that has been spent by the new owners at Dartmoor has largely been on extensive refurbishment of the house and restaurant.

Numerous projects have been started and abandoned (what happened to the proposed fishing cat enclosure we donated to?) the park is littered with empty and overgrown enclosures and the remains of cages that have unnecessarily been demolished-the few completed projects have been carried out on a shoestring budget and leave allot to be desired!

I have heard negative reports from an awful lot of people about the current state of Dartmoor-just take a look at trip advisor or similar review sites.

I concur that Ben Mees biggest achievement since buying Dartmoor was getting the TV, book and film deals.
 
I keep hearing that former owner Ellis Daw (whom I've met and is very warm, approachable and co-operative) was prosecuted for illegal breeding of tigers. I think this is another yarn spun by the current owners. Since when has breeding tigers been against the law in Britain?
 
zooman64 said:
I keep hearing that former owner Ellis Daw (whom I've met and is very warm, approachable and co-operative) was prosecuted for illegal breeding of tigers. I think this is another yarn spun by the current owners. Since when has breeding tigers been against the law in Britain?
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I am sorry that you may think or believe that Ellis Daw was not taken to court or broke the law regarding the tigers kept and other welfare issues that were always coming up, hence why the man was taken to numerous employment tribunals, county court judgements, breaching HASAW, breaching Zoo Legislation etc. Sorry but that is not a yarn story.....
"Very warm, approachable and co-operative" you say: Not the case, even the magistrates, judges and other officials said the man was a bungling fool who has no care whatsoever for his own welfare let alone that of his animals or run-down zoo. The man, sadly passed away, but his eccentricity and nonsense was at it's best difficult, at it's worst, dme right dangerous.

Try this:

On 10/7/02 Ellis Daw, owner of Dartmoor Wildlife Park in Devon, pleaded guilty to breeding Siberian Tigers illegally (i.e. not part of a managed breeding programme) and keeping them in unsuitable conditions (6 tigers were found in a small off-show enclosure). 15 other charges against him were dropped. Daw was originally charged with 16 offences after an investigation by South Hams District Council found a number of serious management problems at the Zoo. Other charges related to taking animals to schools without permission from the council and failing to properly dispose of dead animals. TV news footage following the verdict showed dead animals in freezers next to animal food. Daw admitted that some animals may have been frozen for 30 years and that he sent dead zoo animals to taxidermists. Amazingly, despite his guilty plea to serious charges Daw received just a conditional discharge and was ordered to pay £200 costs.

& this:

The owner of a Devon zoo has denounced claims by an animal welfare group that he should lose his licence.
The Captive Animals Protection Society (Caps) criticised living conditions and provision of safety barriers at Dartmoor Wildlife Park, Sparkwell, near Plymouth.

Ellis Daw, who runs the park, denied the allegations.

He said the park had been running since 1968 without an accident and everything was investigated and checked by South Hams District Council.

Ellis Daw says he is angry about the report

"I am very angry," said Mr Dawes. "They are great big enclosures with vegetation and trees, a new style which we started 10 or 12 years ago which other zoos have copied."
Caps campaigns against zoos and animal circuses.

It produced a 13-page report after sending an investigator to the zoo.

Caps criticised living conditions for some animals, notably three European brown bears.

It also criticised the zoo for having inadequate signposts and a lack of barriers to protect the public from caged animals.

The park's bear enclosure came in for criticism,

Caps investigator, Craig Armstrong, said he was "amazed" that the park's zoo licence had been renewed in February.
Mr Armstong said: "Of all the zoos I have visited on behalf of Caps, I have never noted so many concerns about health and safety.

"There are a catalogue of serious accidents waiting to happen here."

Caps is calling for the park's licence to be revoked and for the zoo to take immediate action to rectify health and safety issues there.

Mr Armstrong said a copy of the report has been sent to South Hams District Council, adding that Caps would also be contacting the Zoo Federation about the issue.

South Hams council said specialists from the Department of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs carried out periodic inspections.

Following an inspection at the end of last year, inspectors said they were satisfied the licence could be renewed, providing some animal welfare and public safety issues were addressed.

Report awaited

A report from the inspectors on whether the conditions were being met was awaited, said the council.

But Peter Wheardon, the divisional environmental health officer at the council said that taking away the licence would not do the animals any favours.

"It is a very serious measure to take," he said.

"If a licence is revoked, we have to find somewhere else for the animals to go. It could mean the destruction of the animals, which would be unfortunate."

Ellis Daw said: "They are very good enclosures. No accidents in 33 years. Doesn't that say something?"

See also:

Internet links:

Dartmoor Wildlife Park

Captive Animals Protection Society

South Hams District Council

The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites
 
An ex-employee of the Mee's and DWP said this:

"Unfortunately both the film and the book suffer from one glaring fault: the "amazing true story" was in fact a total pack of lies. Ben Mee did not buy a dilapidated zoo as he claims, he bought a perfectly workable wildlife park and it was his own policy of bringing in a "younger staff with a fresh outlook" which resulted in his putting a buch of clueless kids in charge of everything, pushing out the older, experienced staff who actually knew how to do their jobs that resulted in him reducing a once great tourist attraction into a really dilapidated grotty little zoo and killing dozens of innocent animals and birds in the process. Just over two years ago when his fresh outlooking new staff finally forced redundancy onto all the older keepers Ben Mee kept every penny of their redundancy payments and after he was taken to the employment tribunal and lost, simply declared his company insolvent and on the same day created a new company with himself as director of course, and STILL owes over £880,000 in unpaid fines and awards to the staff and local businesses that he continues to treat like dirt. Funny how none of that appeared in the film isn't it!"

Personally, I feel that the keepers that Daw had did fail but not in a way that could be blamed on them persay; they were not guided in good zoo husbandry, the staff were not kept upto date with laws and animal management, the staff lacked experience and qualifications (experience is something that is gained through good stewardship and tutalage from others, then after times passes, you or who ever feels adapt to apply the experience, but sadly the experience was poor and lacking), although the staff are not truly at fault, it came down to the nonsense from Ellis Daw himself and his eccentric behaviour. ;)
 
It's certainly got worse since my first visit in about 2006. Now if the Bears could go somewhere else i wouldn't feel the need to visit there ever again. They'd be a perfect addition to the New Forest wildlife park.
 
The zoo has one thing holding it back now. Mee's ego. They can no longer blame Ellis Daw. Yes, he let the park become a joke and a danger to both the public and the animals, but they have had six years to put things right.

I cannot see their current lender being patient for much longer.

As for the state of the zoo. The paths are a joke, nothing to the basic infrastructure has been done. The excuse of putting the animals first is horse-hockey. Why did they get a new monkey enclosure then? why are they openly fundraising for a new species on the website? Why does the end of the film claim that they are trying to get giraffes?
 
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This is beginning to sound like a case of the in it together party (conservative party) blaming the ex owners for the mess they are in today!!
 
Ellis Bowen Daw is still very much alive and kicking and a regular reader of zoochat, If anyone would like any FACTUAL information regarding Dartmoor's past I would be happy to help.

Big cat speciali you are always very quick to defend Glasgow Zoo- which makes Dartmoor look like San Diego by comparison!
 
jacks zoo said:
Ellis Bowen Daw is still very much alive and kicking and a regular reader of zoochat, If anyone would like any FACTUAL information regarding Dartmoor's past I would be happy to help.

Big cat speciali you are always very quick to defend Glasgow Zoo- which makes Dartmoor look like San Diego by comparison!
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Looks like a raw nerve has been hit. My apologies to Mr Daw on hearing that he had passed away, sounds like he has not. It would be interesting fo Ellis Daw to make himself known and he feels it correct, to put the record straight. Factual information that was posted (obviously i was misinformed about the man's death) regarding the tigers, the poor state of affairs, the lack of monies, good husbandry and curatorship, the lack of good record keeping and even licence keeping is all fact, it is verbatum from court and court sources, BBC and others: So this for example is not fact? .....On 10/7/02 Ellis Daw, owner of Dartmoor Wildlife Park in Devon, pleaded guilty to breeding Siberian Tigers illegally (i.e. not part of a managed breeding programme) and keeping them in unsuitable conditions (6 tigers were found in a small off-show enclosure). 15 other charges against him were dropped. Daw was originally charged with 16 offences after an investigation by South Hams District Council found a number of serious management problems at the Zoo. Other charges related to taking animals to schools without permission from the council and failing to properly dispose of dead animals. TV news footage following the verdict showed dead animals in freezers next to animal food. Daw admitted that some animals may have been frozen for 30 years and that he sent dead zoo animals to taxidermists. Amazingly, despite his guilty plea to serious charges Daw received just a conditional discharge and was ordered to pay £200 costs." Or on the matter of Employment Tribunals and how Employment Judges made specific comments regarding how Ellis Daw kept jumping in when the EJ was talking, or when the EJ told Ellis Daw on numerous occassions to stop telling the EJ what is law and not when he is the only person who can say. I even do recall Ellis Daw telling one tribunal that he had someone fly in by helecopter to buy his park, only to leave because Daw had been taken to a tribunal that week. The facts do speak and although I may have hit a raw nerve on DWP as others have also, the facts speak: The park was a ruin, it was not fit for purpose, the welfare and husbandry was not in keeping with the law. Glasgow had it faults also, but to compare DWP with Glasgow at that time is like comparing apples to oranages. DWP like San Diago, which even by most was regarded as the best but now other collections have taken and made better. Sorry but DWP is nothing like San Diago, and even Glasgow when it was closing was still far better condition that what DWP was. So I am sorry that you may find that I hit a raw nerve with you Jacks Zoo, but the facts and the people here speak, if you have fault with that then may be Ellis Daw or the Mees could tell us all different, that Ellis was not taken to court? - So once again, i may have got the death of Ellis wrong but the rest, sorry, the facts are there, even try googling them. ;)
 
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