Yes, hananyas group, as far as I remember not a high ranking girl, and with considerable issues from her childhood, but coping well considering.
Death and Legacy of Mary Chipperfield
- Thread starter Animal Friendly
- Start date
Yes, hananyas group, as far as I remember not a high ranking girl, and with considerable issues from her childhood, but coping well considering.
With respect, that's ridiculous reasoning. In that case, we shouldn't be able to show disgust at Josef Fritzl for his heinous crimes. And we should be accepting of Fred and Rose West as our equals and buddies.
There's no way that some tired old saying with unpleasant religious overtones bears any relevance here. Having led a chequered life, I'm not without sin...but have I beaten up animals? Nope! Not even close!
Animal Friendly
Well-Known Member
I would just like to say this. I can fully understand some of the things that have been said about Mary on here by people who are disgusted at some of the things that happened to animals while in here care, I would think that anybody who has read what I have posted on here in the past would appreciate I am first and foremost an animal person be it animals in zoos, circuses, farms or pets and I am passionately interested in their welfare. I do think however that comparing Mary to the likes of vermin who used to smoke a big cigar and "fix it" for kids is going too far, animal cruelty is disgusting and so is molesting children but they are two entirely different issues. I am old enough to remember Mary Chipperfield when she was at the height of her circus career, a subject of television's "This is your Life", appearing on Animal Magic with Johnny Morris, as well as her circus shows at the likes of Blackpool Tower, one of the few circus people who was a household name. Of coarse that all changed very suddenly following the A.D.I. investigation into her training facilities in Hampshire, prosecution followed resulting in a fine and costs totalling £20,000. As Mary stated at the time she was being treated like Moira Hindley, her business and her good reputation left in ruins. A very sad end for all concerned including Trudy the chimp and Tembo the elephant at the end of the day.
Vulpes
Well-Known Member
I dont think you can compare Mary Chipperfield to Saville or Fritzel.
At the time, negative reinforcement was an acceptable way of training animals. It was the way they were all trained and had been trained for hundreds of years. Positive reinforcement is a new trend.
There was or never will be anything acceptable about the abuse caused by the other two.
Everything we know about training animals has evolved from those early techniques. Just like modern day surgery evolved from the 'butchery' of the past.
At the time, negative reinforcement was an acceptable way of training animals. It was the way they were all trained and had been trained for hundreds of years. Positive reinforcement is a new trend.
There was or never will be anything acceptable about the abuse caused by the other two.
Everything we know about training animals has evolved from those early techniques. Just like modern day surgery evolved from the 'butchery' of the past.
I think Myra Hindley was actually punished rather more severely.
The trouble is, the exposure of her methods taints everything else, it's not as though she was a mastermind tax dodger and you think "Ah well, that's terrible but she did great work with animals.' What she was convicted of was a part of what her reputation was built on.
Last edited:
If anything, her cruelty gave individuals like Rosa, Tembo and Trudy a second chance in life.
The woman showed a complete lack of remorse and was unapologetic, regardless of the era she was brought up in. If she'd had shown any of these qualities my opinion may have been different.
The woman showed a complete lack of remorse and was unapologetic, regardless of the era she was brought up in. If she'd had shown any of these qualities my opinion may have been different.
I suppose it all depends on how you view crimes.
To me, the abuse of animals is as bad as abusing kids. Possibly more so because it's not as if the animal is able to tell anyone.
And as has been said a few times, the fact that she brazenly showed naff all remorse for her crimes makes her all the more hateful.
(and it's Myra Hindley, not Moira)
To me, the abuse of animals is as bad as abusing kids. Possibly more so because it's not as if the animal is able to tell anyone.
And as has been said a few times, the fact that she brazenly showed naff all remorse for her crimes makes her all the more hateful.
(and it's Myra Hindley, not Moira)
I suspect we should probably try to avoid discussion of which form of abuse is worse; it seems to me to be a surefire way of this thread getting rather nasty which thus far it's avoided being for the most part.
I'm going to slightly rename the thread to prevent people squabbling over the wording of the title, too - I think it is very worthwhile discussing her actions and legacy, which is more or less what this thread has become, but we don't want the thread to become a load of people saying something like "She should not RIP she should rest in pieces"
which thus far it's avoided being for the most part.I'm going to slightly rename the thread to prevent people squabbling over the wording of the title, too - I think it is very worthwhile discussing her actions and legacy, which is more or less what this thread has become, but we don't want the thread to become a load of people saying something like "She should not RIP she should rest in pieces"
I think you misunderstand my post (and, I believe, Nanook's post). I personally don't like circuses at all, but acknowledging the (major!) part the Chipperfield's played in the establishment of safari parks in England is in no way being accepting of any criminal activities entertained by Mary Chipperfield nor anyone else. It just is what it is. You can't pretend to rewrite history because you don't like one part of it!
Absolutely, well said Chlidonias.
Some people really need to read carefully what it said, rather than jumping down the throat of the posters.
The Chipperfields (as a whole) did indeed play a major part in the zoo history of the UK and no-one can deny what they achieved.
As I said in my first post, I am not really wishing dig up the past and discuss the situation and I am in no way defending her actions. Those were the actions of a single person, in a moment of madness, though what she did affected the whole Chipperfield family and their reputation thereafter.
I don't think it was a moment of madness, rather sustained violent abuse over a period of time.
It's strange that I can find no mention of her death anywhere on the internet, apart from this thread. Nor has it been mentioned on any news programme that I've seen.
Have I missed something? What was the original source of this information?
Have I missed something? What was the original source of this information?
bigcat speciali
Well-Known Member
What Mary and Roger did was as we all know, something that was wrong and those bad deeds were dealt with. I am not a fan of circuses that show animals and use anomalies of people, something that should be kept in the past. However, how many of you have actually met Mary and her husband and or were ever at their establishments? Not very many i expect. As humans we all have the uncanny nature of being sheep, following others and because one person bays an opinion then we all join in. Thats just human nature. Having met both Mary, Roger and their family on many occasions, because they owned many of our animals at Glasgow. I also took numerous animals down to Mary (as the animals were theirs) and lastly, both Mary and Roger took our big cats away, which is detailed below. 2004 I went down with some goats down to the Chipperfiled's and came back with a domestic cat. Such was the place at Mary's that she and the family used feral cats to keep down the mice and rats. One of those kittens was given to me, which I still have, and she is one great mouser and even brings back the odd pheasant for the plate. Give them both their dues, Mary and Roger were from the old school and old days, their ways and methods were not akin or liked to the ways we do things. They did bad, and we know that they did bad, how going off to Spain gave them some sort of peace. That is the past and as long as we can all learn from it and see it for what it is then we have at least learned something.
Glasgow Zoo has maintained tigers almost from its first opening in 1947. During the early 1960s, we even managed to breed them, at that time considered no mean achievement. Still vivid in the minds of older Glaswegians is the death of female Bengal tiger, Sheila , shot dead by the first Zoo Director, Sydney Benson, after she left her enclosure and approached a group of Brownies. The gardener, Alex Innes, who courageously protected the children, was later awarded the George Medal for his heroic action.
Since that day in 1949, Sheila has impressed generations of Glaswegians from the safety of her cage - a glass case at Glasgow's Kelvingrove Museum - though, in recent years, she has been moved behind the scenes, probably in preparation for the Wild Tigers of Bandhavgarh exhibition at the city's Burrell Museum during the year 2000.
In those days, in common with many - though not all - zoos worldwide, tigers were frequently housed in very small cages, because these were reliably secure. Many of them were glorified versions of circus wagons and, in fact, in some eastern European countries were described as ' kennels '. Leipzig Zoo, for example, became world- famous for its regular production of Siberian tigers and I was always struck by how small all the dens and enclosures were.
Anyway, be that as it may, I always found it disquieting (at the very least) to see these magnificent, intelligent and demonstrative creatures crammed into such diminished surroundings. After Sheba, our last tiger, died in 1972 we did not replace her, preferring to wait until we could afford, or find sponsorship for, the type of enclosure we felt these animals deserved.
For over ten years Glasgow Zoo was without tigers of any sort, save the presence of a couple of hand-reared cubs on two occasions, the last being animals confiscated by the R.S.P.C.A. from a celebrity hypnotist - a tale in itself for another occasion!
In the mid 1980s, we were approached by James Lang, the father of one of our Junior Members, regarding the two tigers at Cromer Zoo, which was closing down. These tigers and the other animals were featured on BBC's Nationwide as being in urgent need of ' rescue ', and could he help. Jim Lang's close friend and business associate was Chief Bola Abimbola of the Adimula family in Nigeria.
To cut a long story short, the Chief purchased the tigers and presented them to the Zoo, whilst Jim Lang set about helping with sponsorship for a new house and enclosure. Initially we had no money at all, but strenuously resisted all attempts and suggestions that we house the tigers in any of the old, box-metal, cramped cages which still existed. Instead, we lodged them at Longleat Safari Park whilst sponsorship involving over 200 firms and individuals was arranged. It took some time, but in the end everything was sponsored except for the four large windows of laminated glass and, with the assistance of staff employed through the Manpower Services Commission, a very large and thoughtfully designed house and enclosure came into being.
Standard husbandry textbooks will provide you with any information you require about the management of tigers. It's worth remembering that tigers have been kept and bred in captivity in Britain for about 200 years; I seem to remember that Agasse painted tiger cubs early in the 19thC. As far as health and safety is concerned, big cat enclosures will have a double fence with a big gap between which prevents visitors from poking their hands through. The weldmesh fence should not be so big that the tigers can climb it like a ladder.
All modern tiger welfare requirements were incorporated in building the den for the tigers. The house possesses underfloor heating, off-exhibit cubbing dens, windows with different vistas including over the main enclosure; the enclosure has a pond deep enough to swim in, climbing and resting facilities, and is heavily planted. If we were to build a tiger enclosure again today, it is doubtful if we would change more than a few details.
Since its opening in 1985 by the Lord Provost of Glasgow, Robert Gray, J.P., a succession of tigers has occupied this enclosure after Ben and Sabrina , the tigers from Cromer who started it all. In 1990 - to participate in the festivities during Glasgow's year as European City of Culture - white tigers were loaned to Glasgow Zoo by Lord Bath and the Chipperfield family.
Chandhi , a white female with blue eyes and chocolate stripes, was an immediate success, and zoo attendances increased by over 40% from July to September.
The current tigers consist of Ayesha , an Aspinall-bred Bengal tiger from Howlett's Zoo in Kent. Two female cubs born in November 1998 remain with her while Butu , a six-year-old, intermediate-colour male of the Columbus Zoo (Ohio), white tiger strain and is not white, but a gingerish colour with a white face, chin and belly. In order to maximise the gene pool, Butu moved to a Spanish zoo in Spring 2000:
Butu and Ayesha bred regularly, but as Ayesha is homozygous for the normal brown tiger colouration all their cubs are (as one would expect) also normal in colouration. The cubs are, however, heterozygous and carry the genes for white as hidden recessive factors.
Somebody, somewhere, at some time in the future, could receive a pleasant surprise (or unpleasant, depending on their outlook) when one or more white cubs pop up in a litter, if two of Butu and Ayesha's cubs are either mated together or one happens to mate with another tiger heterozygous for white. This is not conservation in the traditional sense, but is absorbing to anyone with an interest in animal breeding or the propagation of unusual colour varieties, or who is just fascinated by tigers. The most pre-current litter of three left in June 1998, for a new, multi-million pound safari park near Estoril in Spain. As Butu and Ayeesha were mating again in early August 1998, another litter anticipated in November 1998 successfully came to term. .
It goes without saying that as Glasgow now has a first-class tiger facility, a proven track-record for successfully mother-rearing tigers, and great keeper expertise and experience with these wonderful animals, we are ideally placed to take part in a tiger conservation programme should conservation pressures warrant this and stud-book registered tigers are made available.
HISTORICAL FOOTNOTE:
It turns out that tigers have, on and off, been displayed in Glasgow for a remarkably long time, although prior to the founding of the Zoo you would have to visit a travelling menagerie or circus to see one. For example in 1839, when George Wombwell visited the city for the annual Glasgow Fair, tigers from Bengal and Madras were included in his menagerie. Considerably earlier than this, conceivably towards the end of the eighteenth century, Glasgow was the setting for a tragic incident when a tiger was exhibited. The tiger broke out from its barred cage and attacked a small monkey, swallowing the iron collar the monkey was wearing which, a few days later, caused its demise. >
TIGERS Update 2000
by Richard O'Grady
Both cubs are doing well and are nearing adult size.
'Ayesha', the female came into oestrus in February 2000, but 'returned' again in March. This time, her 'season' lasted nearly five days, accompanied by numerous matings and loud roarings with 'Butu'. Although we are not desperately anxious to breed from Ayesha again just now, we are assuming she is pregnant, and will make the necessary preparations in June.
In the meantime, Butu has travelled to Germany and has settled in with two females, one a white, the other a ginger and white like himself. All three animals are genetically white.
In the wild, through the centuries two white forms have been recorded; a white with chocolate stripes and blue eyes, the other a white with red eyes - not that anyone living today has ever seen such an animal. Genetically the current form is inherited as an autosomal (i.e., non-sex-linked) recessive factor. Consequently, both of our young females are heterozygous, i.e., brown, carrying white as a hidden recessive factor. Their mother Ayesha, who was bred by John Aspinall at Howlett's Zoopark in Kent, is homozygous, i.e., pure brown with no hidden white factor. Accordingly, when mated to a white male like Butu, all the cubs are brown. All are heterozygous i.e., 'carrying' white.
White tigers in the wild have been recorded on numerous occasions. Indeed, a white tiger is frequently seen on the walls of ancient tombs in the Far East, representing one of the elemental forces of nature.
'Mohan', the founder white male of the 200 or so white tigers in the world today (all in captivity) was captured by the Maharajah of Rewa in the Bandhavgarh district of India. When Mohan in 1951 was bred to a brown female all the cubs were brown. The first of these heterozygous cubs, when mated back to Mohan produced the startling litter of four white cubs!
The saying, 'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder' is never so more true than when applied to white tigers. You either like them or loathe them, regarding them as a waste of captive space which could be better utilised for one of the endangered sub-species, such as Sumatran or Siberian tigers. We all have some sympathy with this point of view. Nevertheless, white tigers and their genetics are fascinating, and many visitors love them, which is why so many zoos across the world use them to draw attention to tigers and their plight in the wild.
In the U.K. Bristol Zoo became famous in the 1960s and 70s for its purebred white tigers of the Indian or Bengal sub-species. In the 80s and 90s, these were joined in the U.K. by animals originating from the United States, which are described as 'generic'. This is because they are descended from animals of no definite origin. This almost certainly and regrettably involved a mixture of sub-species.
These animals were first imported and exhibited at Longleat Safari Park before, in 1990, three were loaned to us to celebrate Glasgow's designation as 'European City of Culture. Since then we have been pleased to note that leading Federation zoos such as Colchester and Belfast have also exhibited the same strain of these tigers.
As successive generations of white tigers have been produced it is very interesting to note the dramatic variation in colour. Whites with chocolate-coloured stripes and blue eyes are the norm. However, there are many examples where the stripes are almost completely absent, sometimes just consisting of a few rings on the tail. Simultaneously, a gingery form has been produced with a white throat, chest, belly, and down the insides of each leg, of which Butu is a good example.
There is now available a rare 'bluish' form, almost certainly a cinnamon, one would guess. Even this has been recorded in the wild. Guggisberg in his book 'Wild Cats of the World' described such a form being regularly produced in one district of India where the locals referred to them as those 'black devils'!
Butu will probably return to Glasgow in the autumn, unless we manage to obtain an unrelated out-cross from elsewhere. (2001)
It's not accepting it no, but it's lending credibility to her legacy that I don't believe an abuser like that deserves.
If any national treasure was found guilty of heinous abuse crimes on anyone or anything, then I would write them off as an embarrassment. So when people say it's unfair to compare them to Stuart Hall etc, I'm afraid it's entirely justified. Some have said it was a different culture of training back then....well back then, there was a different culture when it came to the way children were treated by adults.
In my eyes, she deserves to be written off as an embarrassment to the nation, and forget any good work that she did!
Yes I realise that, what I meant is that it was not (as far as we know) something that she did for her entire career.
Yeah, 'cos of course she just turned around a few weeks before she was nicked, and thought "ooo...d'yer know what I think might work? I'm going to beat up an ape!"
Surely we're intelligent enough to accept that one bad aspect of a person's life/personality doesn't necessarily obliterate other more positive things they may have done. Life's not always clear cut -I can personally accept that she was involved in some historically noteworthy moments in zoo/circus history whilst still abhorring crimes she committed.
As others have pointed out, her behaviour would not have been unacceptable in a not too distant past and to some extent she was a person behind the times (not un-akin to Dave Lee Travis in my opinion, but that's a whole other kettle of fish). To clarify, that's an observation, not a justification.
Another example of people behind their times are racist grandparents, some of you may have come across them (some of them may even simultaneously be WWII heroes). Do we condemn their views? Of course we do! Do we do it at their funerals? Probably not to any great extent. Does it obliterate other positive things they've done? Again, probably not. People can simultaneously be both good and bad without either aspect dominating enough to conclude completely at one pole or the other (though it's everyone's right to have an opinion). Like I said, life's not always clear cut.
As others have pointed out, her behaviour would not have been unacceptable in a not too distant past and to some extent she was a person behind the times (not un-akin to Dave Lee Travis in my opinion, but that's a whole other kettle of fish). To clarify, that's an observation, not a justification.
Another example of people behind their times are racist grandparents, some of you may have come across them (some of them may even simultaneously be WWII heroes). Do we condemn their views? Of course we do! Do we do it at their funerals? Probably not to any great extent. Does it obliterate other positive things they've done? Again, probably not. People can simultaneously be both good and bad without either aspect dominating enough to conclude completely at one pole or the other (though it's everyone's right to have an opinion). Like I said, life's not always clear cut.
That would depend upon the severity of the crime, and to me animal abuse is unacceptable and unforgivable.
Whilst it's interesting that you, like me, are able to see the similarity between hew case of historical abuse and those of the recent Operation Yewtree criminals...there is no way that her behaviour can be posthumously excused away as one would to a slightly racist grandparent!
As I've said before, her vile treatment of animals was not something developed later in her career....come on, we must all be able to realise that? She would have been doing it for years! So who knows how many animals have suffered throughout her lifetime? Not forgetting all those animals that have been trained by people who learnt their training techniques from her. Her catalogue of abuse has probably spread throughout the world!
It actually saddens me that people on a animal-loving forum are able to just write off her crimes and appear almost starry eyed when talking about her. If you think she had paid for those crimes, then I wonder if the animals that had suffered found any solace in the fact she got away with a mere £8500 fine?