Paignton Zoo Demolition Man demo!

[karenZOO]

Goodness they are going to have their hands full Thanks for the information!

Is it beneficial to the females, all being first timers to all have babies around the same time or does this lead to problems?

Say the worst happens (hope not) one female loses her baby or cant raise it herself that really must add huge problems to the the group dynamic? (I am assuming they are kept together?)

Sorry to ask so many questions but I am here to learn and only have experience of zoos from the visitors perspective

 

[Gigit]

If they do all successfully have babies, it is to be hoped that they continue to get on with each other as well as they do now. If they can't be kept together,the layout of the house means that while one mother and baby are on display, the others (not to mention male Demo) would have to be kept in their small off show 'bedrooms'. They could have access to the islands from the bedrooms as well as from the show den, but if they give birth in the winter, going outside with babies might not be an option. Fingers crossed!

 

[kkkp]

If they do all successfully have babies, it is to be hoped that they continue to get on with each other as well as they do now. If they can't be kept together,the layout of the house means that while one mother and baby are on display, the others (not to mention male Demo) would have to be kept in their small off show 'bedrooms'. They could have access to the islands from the bedrooms as well as from the show den, but if they give birth in the winter, going outside with babies might not be an option. Fingers crossed!

Chinta is not with the others at the moment as she keeps beating up Gambira.So today demo man was out and so was marli who loves it outside and spends the night outside sometimesDemo man is lovely to his ladies and often goes up and gives the girls kisses and if Gambira stays inside which she does most days staring out of the window Demo man always brings her in a gift of a few leaves on a branch..I cant see there being any problems with them all being together when hopefuly the ofspring arrive. Today Marli came outside with her little straw sack on her head.Looking like Mother Therresa!

 

[karenZOO]

Sounds like you have some right personalities there Fingers crossed they all get on and everything goes well Be a shame to have to keep some inside as i am sure 3 baby orangs will be a huge boost to the zoos profile and attendance.

Just had a look at your lovely photos Gigit does the island give as much privacy as it looks for the orangs if they need it, looks very natural in some of your photos you wouldnt know they were in a zoo

I really must visit next year wish it was nearer

 

[Gigit]

Just had a look at your lovely photos Gigit does the island give as much privacy as it looks for the orangs if they need it, looks very natural in some of your photos you wouldnt know they were in a zoo

It is possible for them to hide away. It's a large island and they seem to melt into it at times. It used to be even easier for them to disappear but a lot of shrubbery has been cut back recently, I think in response to visitors complaining that they couldn't see them. A couple of years ago a group came over from Sepilok to give a talk and were very impressed by the naturalness of the islands.

 

[Pertinax]

A couple of years ago a group came over from Sepilok to give a talk and were very impressed by the naturalness of the islands.

The Orangutan island is probably the most natural Orang enclosure I've ever seen. When it opened I was looking forward to seeing the orangs climbing, particularly in the grove of tall trees but of course they never did.. It seems that is all changing with the arrival of the new pair though.

 

[karenZOO]

Sounds fantastic

Having to hunt for them is a good excuse for me to spend even loooonger at an enclosure

 

[kkkp]

If they do all successfully have babies, it is to be hoped that they continue to get on with each other as well as they do now. If they can't be kept together,the layout of the house means that while one mother and baby are on display, the others (not to mention male Demo) would have to be kept in their small off show 'bedrooms'. They could have access to the islands from the bedrooms as well as from the show den, but if they give birth in the winter, going outside with babies might not be an option. Fingers crossed!

The problem is that they dont all get on well together .As yesterday it was awful to see Mali beating up Gambira.It was quite vocal and Demo man was acting as a referee!I think Chinta has learned a lesson as she is back in with them,But Gambira was sitting all on her own today and wouldnt go any where near them. Mali and Chinta were trying to dismantle the whole climbing frame by pulling out lumps of wood .Then Mali was trying to lift out the leg of one of the supports and my goodness she is strong as she nearly did it! I thought she was going to give birth with all that exsertion

 

[Gigit]

I feel very sorry for Gambira - she used to be able to hide behind Bulu when things got bad. Chinta has caused problems since she matured, first with Gigit and then with Bulu and Gambira. It looked as though both Demo and Mali were getting on well with Gambira while Chinta was separated from them. It all shows up the design flaws in the orang half of the Ape House where there is little room to separate them and at the same time give them space.
I have always suspected that if they were given more enrichment they would be less inclined to try and wreck the place.

 

[Pertinax]

It all shows up the design flaws in the orang half of the Ape House where there is little room to separate them and at the same time give them space.

Its probably also because they are not naturally social animals. I think in the wild the females will try and drive others away from their 'territory' in the forest- there's no(genetic) advantage in allowing unrelated animals to share their feeding range. This is being mirrored at the zoo, where the current females don't have strong family ties. Orangutans are not really 'group' animals though many zoos keep them that way..

 

[kkkp]

A lot of the problems seem to occur because they cant get out side because when they do there are no problems.It would be the same if you locked 4 strangers in a room day after day with no fresh air they would soon start to destroy the place and try to kill each other, allso the weather has been lovely and sunny.The enrichment they get outside is natural.They are loosing all there lovely orange coats and during the summer they hardly went out at all for weeks on end.But when they did it was amazing how they changed.What is the point of having a lovely outside area and they cant use it....

 

[Pertinax]

A lot of the problems seem to occur because they cant get out side because when they do there are no problems.

Obviously the more space, the less fighting there will be.The staff must be aware of that so maybe there is a genuine reason why they don't have access outside everyday.
Was it because during the summer they were introducing them together, and now they think it is too cold? Seems odd to stop them from using that big outdoor enclosure though.

 

[Gigit]

Its probably also because they are not naturally social animals. I think in the wild the females will try and drive others away from their 'territory' in the forest- there's no(genetic) advantage in allowing unrelated animals to share their feeding range. This is being mirrored at the zoo, where the current females don't have strong family ties. Orangutans are not really 'group' animals though many zoos keep them that way..

I don't know why they originally thought they could keep them all together. When Bulu, Nakal, Senja and Chinta first arrived they survived being squashed together in the small mammal house. Somebody studied their behaviour in preparation for their move to the Ape House but Gambira's unexpected arrival put paid to all that. When they moved, Bulu and Senja no longer got on so the separations started. When Senja died, Chinta was kept with Bulu and Gambira and was OK until she was affected by hormones.......As you say, this is all normal orang behaviour. So why design a house more suitable for sociable gorillas?
There's been a variety of reasons for keeping them inside - introducing them, waterlogged island, bad weather, broken electric fence, men putting up posts for the still uncompleted gibbon access, gardeners cutting back vegetation, platforms falling down, reluctance of the orangs to come back indoors - not a good move when you could be about to give birth! Although I remember being told about an orang in Jersey who gave birth in the snow and put the baby on her head. I think it survived.

 

[Pertinax]

..As you say, this is all normal orang behaviour. So why design a house more suitable for sociable gorillas?

Because they fell into that pitfall of designing a 'twin' house for both species. So many zoos have built nearly identical enclosures/Ape Houses in the past, despite the animals' different needs- Dudley, Twycross, Bristol, Chester- I could go on. Its also cheaper to design like that and I suspect as Paignton had no real experience with either species previously they couldn't foresee the future. Their indoor areas are really far more suitable for Gorillas. Some of the newer continental designs have entirely different enclosures for each species, which is really as it should be. Jersey is also a good example of providing sympathetic housing for the different needs of Gorillas & Orangutans.

 

[kkkp]

What a shame they dont learn by other design mistakes. At least the Gorrillas get choice as to where they spend their time in or out except in the mornings now but even then they have the choice of a smaller inside closure or outside whilst the little ones get used to their new home.Mind you the comments one hears from people are(why arnt they all in together? oh they must have got rid of the two bigger ones)...uh hello.got side tracked then.The orangs are not happy and they wont be untill they let them out again.the sooner the better.What flooded island they can climb not all the island gets flooded!What electric fence ?The only one that broke was when Kumbuku tried to pole vault over the stream/river.No excuses are needed.FREE THE ORANGS FROM THEIR CAGE PLEASE....

 

[Pertinax]

Seems like Paigton's lovely Natural Orangutan Island has a lot of current problems. For years the Orangs would hardly use it and never climbed the trees at all. Now they seem to want to do so, they aren't being allowed outside for a whole swathe of different reasons.

 

[kkkp]

Sunday they were fighting,,,and today Monday they are fighting!Gambira bless her was sitting under the netting and wouldnt move she only moves when chinta comes flying over at least Demo Mr Smoothie is protecting Gambira but not all the time.as he was fighting with Mali.and yet more days pass and they cant get out.Pity the powers to be dont have a look what is going on.Lots of people were laughing at them today because they were fighting .[sickos] very sad.

 

[Gigit]

I hope they'll have given one or more of them some 'time out' before my planned visit tomorrow. It can't be good to be under constant stress while pregnant.
It really makes my blood boil when people with, presumably, less intelligence than the animals they're watching, laugh at them. One of my long list of pet hates when I go to a zoo

 

[Pertinax]

I hope they'll have given one or more of them some 'time out' before my planned visit tomorrow.

Are you sure this isn't all just exuberant play?

I haven't actually ever seen Orangutans fighting in a zoo, but have seen rough play with wrestling, biting (with plenty of teeth showing) and chasing, a number of times. If there is real fighting I'm surprised they haven't been split up further- you say there are six dens behind the scenes as well as the main exhibition enclosure and there's the little outdoor island too.

All seems rather mysterious to me.

 

[kkkp]

Are you sure this isn't all just exuberant play?

I haven't actually ever seen Orangutans fighting in a zoo, but have seen rough play with wrestling, biting (with plenty of teeth showing) and chasing, a number of times. If there is real fighting I'm surprised they haven't been split up further- you say there are six dens behind the scenes as well as the main exhibition enclosure and there's the little outdoor island too.

All seems rather mysterious to me.

They have removed Gambira today and all is calm once again as the butt of their agresion is towards her seems a shame.I think when the keepers are concerned then you know they are not playing.Sometimes it is difficult to pay witness to the fighting .Playing is a different thing as today Demo and Chinta were playing and and Mali was just chilled out.
It was totally different