About us
I'm not sure, but I don't think there are many zoos in the UK which are funded by the city/town. I think it is mostly charities and private owners
Different zoo traditions in Europe and The USA?
- Thread starter Dan
- Start date
About us
I'm not sure, but I don't think there are many zoos in the UK which are funded by the city/town. I think it is mostly charities and private owners
Sakura
Active Member
Thank you Jimmy, that is very interesting. With the problems Toronto Zoo has had over the years and recently with them dissolving the foundation I think they would be much better with the system the UK zoos have.
I am sure it is too entrenched in the system it is in to be able to change completely and I am sure it will survive. A pity the zoo staff that does so much valuable research has to put up with the politics that goes on around them.
Growing up our closest zoo was Dudley Zoo maybe one day I will be able to visit again.
I am sure it is too entrenched in the system it is in to be able to change completely and I am sure it will survive. A pity the zoo staff that does so much valuable research has to put up with the politics that goes on around them.
Growing up our closest zoo was Dudley Zoo maybe one day I will be able to visit again.
Miniaturezoo954
Well-Known Member
This is a very interesting subject, and one that i can relate to, my first ever experience in a World Class Zoo was at the Berlin Zoo, and yes i consider it World Class, one of the best zoos in the planet, i agree with one key point made by another member, not all European cultures built Zoos alike, the british in my opinion, have a very simple aproach to the design of exhibits, it seems to me that they really do not try hard enough to make their zoos look good, i would imagine London Zoo to be a spectacular zoo, but from the many pics and videos that i have seen it is extremely poor looking.
Germany in the other hand has more zoos i believe than any European country, and they seem to take a lot of pride in their zoos, historical buildings, statues, landscape and some extremely modern exhibits, i love this about some European countries their historical grounds are full of exotic buildings and many other things that make your experience fantastic.
The US is a completely different place for Zoos, and living in Miami, i see the difference even more than up north, but everything is different in my opinion, some Zoos are extremely modern all over, and there is very little sense of history, or even pride, with a few exeptions, San Diego Zoo is a proud zoo, but in a lot of the zoos here, it seems that people don't really care, and is just another place to visit with the family, no interest in the specifics of animal species, only the very large mammals get any special attention, this experience is very different than in Europe, even Disney's Animal Kingdom had a hard time making it at the begining, because people did not care enough to see the animals.
So i think that the culture of a country shapes their Zoos and animal parks, and what i get in my view is that:
UK: People that mainly visit zoos in this country has a very deep understanding and interest in animals, not a lot of taste when it comes to exhibit building, maybe because the animals are so important to them.
Germany: A Zoo here, is an important destination, much like the movie theathers in the US, so people will visit and respect their zoo history, and of that there is plenty to go around, they also seem to carry a very large number of species, more than your average zoo, but the downsize is that sometimes animals quality of live in their zoos is not given a priority.
Spain: The are trying to take the lead when it comes to zoo building and their recent institutions are some of the most modern zoo and yet natural zoo exhibits in the world, downsize this only started taking shape not too many years back, so there is plenty of work in that country to be done, it seems that the people that run the zoos as well as the ones who visit, have a real desire to see animals in modern naturalistic habitats.
Belgium: visited Antwerp Zoo once, and felt in love, was shocked to see the amount of people that visit this very small zoo in space, but massive in species, other countries could learn about space management from this Zoo, their grounds and historical buildings make the zoo seem like fairy tale. The downsize of this zoo and others in the land is really modern exhibits, something like congo can't be found anywhere near this country, people in this place seemed to love their zoo history more than any other place i have ever visited.
Russia: Have no idea what are zoos like overthere, but looking at a lot of pics in this forum i would take a guess, that they are a bad version of German Zoos, and i believe that the people in this country have too many problems to care about building better zoos right now, but i could be completely wrong.
Australia: Never been to Australia, but this people seem to be really into animals, and i mean really, they are extremely fascinated by the actual creatures that live in the wild, and they have a very large number of good zoos for what i have seen and read online, Taroga looks spectacular, and would love to visit one day. The downsize with Australia i believe is diversity, maybe they love animals so much, that the attention they give specific species do not allow them to bring new species in, There is not one Zoo in this country that shows a spectacular collection of animals.
United States of America: By far outspends every other country when it comes to exhibit building, some of the best ideas for zoo exhibits come out of this country, and there is a lot of love in the zoo world to continue spending, this is a very large country and not every place is alike, San Diego for example is an extremely proud place, when i visited this place in April, two kids said to me, Welcome to the San Diego Zoo, that would never happen here in Miami, ever. The biggest downsize of US zoos are americans themselves, there is so much to do in this country, and kids will prefer a playstation any day over a trip to the zoo, so a lot of times, some excellent ideas for building new exhibits, fall off half way into shadows of their former selfs, with exceptions like in every case, but the crowds do not help the zoos here.
So in my opinion if you take:
The UK's knowledge of the animal world
Germany's obssesion with visiting zoos
Spain's modern vision of what a zoo should be
Belgium's love and respect for the history of a zoo
Australia's great love for every animal's live
US's great ideas for exhibit building and deep pockets to match
Then you would have the perfect, or close to perfect zoo, maybe.
Germany in the other hand has more zoos i believe than any European country, and they seem to take a lot of pride in their zoos, historical buildings, statues, landscape and some extremely modern exhibits, i love this about some European countries their historical grounds are full of exotic buildings and many other things that make your experience fantastic.
The US is a completely different place for Zoos, and living in Miami, i see the difference even more than up north, but everything is different in my opinion, some Zoos are extremely modern all over, and there is very little sense of history, or even pride, with a few exeptions, San Diego Zoo is a proud zoo, but in a lot of the zoos here, it seems that people don't really care, and is just another place to visit with the family, no interest in the specifics of animal species, only the very large mammals get any special attention, this experience is very different than in Europe, even Disney's Animal Kingdom had a hard time making it at the begining, because people did not care enough to see the animals.
So i think that the culture of a country shapes their Zoos and animal parks, and what i get in my view is that:
UK: People that mainly visit zoos in this country has a very deep understanding and interest in animals, not a lot of taste when it comes to exhibit building, maybe because the animals are so important to them.
Germany: A Zoo here, is an important destination, much like the movie theathers in the US, so people will visit and respect their zoo history, and of that there is plenty to go around, they also seem to carry a very large number of species, more than your average zoo, but the downsize is that sometimes animals quality of live in their zoos is not given a priority.
Spain: The are trying to take the lead when it comes to zoo building and their recent institutions are some of the most modern zoo and yet natural zoo exhibits in the world, downsize this only started taking shape not too many years back, so there is plenty of work in that country to be done, it seems that the people that run the zoos as well as the ones who visit, have a real desire to see animals in modern naturalistic habitats.
Belgium: visited Antwerp Zoo once, and felt in love, was shocked to see the amount of people that visit this very small zoo in space, but massive in species, other countries could learn about space management from this Zoo, their grounds and historical buildings make the zoo seem like fairy tale. The downsize of this zoo and others in the land is really modern exhibits, something like congo can't be found anywhere near this country, people in this place seemed to love their zoo history more than any other place i have ever visited.
Russia: Have no idea what are zoos like overthere, but looking at a lot of pics in this forum i would take a guess, that they are a bad version of German Zoos, and i believe that the people in this country have too many problems to care about building better zoos right now, but i could be completely wrong.
Australia: Never been to Australia, but this people seem to be really into animals, and i mean really, they are extremely fascinated by the actual creatures that live in the wild, and they have a very large number of good zoos for what i have seen and read online, Taroga looks spectacular, and would love to visit one day. The downsize with Australia i believe is diversity, maybe they love animals so much, that the attention they give specific species do not allow them to bring new species in, There is not one Zoo in this country that shows a spectacular collection of animals.
United States of America: By far outspends every other country when it comes to exhibit building, some of the best ideas for zoo exhibits come out of this country, and there is a lot of love in the zoo world to continue spending, this is a very large country and not every place is alike, San Diego for example is an extremely proud place, when i visited this place in April, two kids said to me, Welcome to the San Diego Zoo, that would never happen here in Miami, ever. The biggest downsize of US zoos are americans themselves, there is so much to do in this country, and kids will prefer a playstation any day over a trip to the zoo, so a lot of times, some excellent ideas for building new exhibits, fall off half way into shadows of their former selfs, with exceptions like in every case, but the crowds do not help the zoos here.
So in my opinion if you take:
The UK's knowledge of the animal world
Germany's obssesion with visiting zoos
Spain's modern vision of what a zoo should be
Belgium's love and respect for the history of a zoo
Australia's great love for every animal's live
US's great ideas for exhibit building and deep pockets to match
Then you would have the perfect, or close to perfect zoo, maybe.
I think the only zoo owned by a local authority in the UK is Belfast.
Blackpool used to be but was sold years ago.
I wouldn't say London was a poor zoo. It is entrenched in it's history and some areas are difficult or impossible to renovate/demolish (see the current camel/bearded pig house) however they have done some very good recent work on the areas which can be renovated (see the wild dog enclosure, Clore rainforest, komodo dragon, B.U.G.S, meet the monkeys and (after a period of maturity) Gorilla Kingdom). It's not "elite" anymore, but I think ZSL realises that a zoo on a site of that size can't be (hence the downgrading of large species - lions, tigers, giraffes and gorillas are probably the only large species left in London)
However, I'd say they implement this vision poorly. Valencia has a lot of potential, but areas like the gorillas for example are very bare (the same goes for Fuengirola). Barcelona are in the process of a massive change and Terra Natura is probably the "finished product" because of it's theme park connection (although it is a good park in my opinion). I haven't seen enough of Madrid to comment on them.
Miniaturezoo954
Well-Known Member
"I wouldn't say London was a poor zoo. It is entrenched in it's history and some areas are difficult or impossible to renovate/demolish (see the current camel/bearded pig house) however they have done some very good recent work on the areas which can be renovated (see the wild dog enclosure, Clore rainforest, komodo dragon, B.U.G.S, meet the monkeys and (after a period of maturity) Gorilla Kingdom). It's not "elite" anymore, but I think ZSL realises that a zoo on a site of that size can't be (hence the downgrading of large species - lions, tigers, giraffes and gorillas are probably the only large species left in London)"
I agree, London Zoo does have some very above average exhibits, but what i meant was, for a city as fantastic as London, in my opinion again, one of the capital's of the world, i would expect their zoo to be just as impressive as Berlin's or Antwerp or even Bronx, i think Bronx would be the type of zoo that i would have expected London to have, when i first saw a pic of the entrance, i really thought i had the wrong zoo, but then again since i have never visited London Zoo, or lived in London to understand its politics, there might be hundreds of reasons as you well explained a few of them why it can't be done, as far as other zoos in the country nothing strikes me as above average, with the exception of Chester, in my opinion, and based on reviews, pictures and videos, a much better zoo than London, still when i read it was considered one of the top zoos in the world i also expected more.
"However, I'd say they implement this vision poorly. Valencia has a lot of potential, but areas like the gorillas for example are very bare (the same goes for Fuengirola). Barcelona are in the process of a massive change and Terra Natura is probably the "finished product" because of it's theme park connection (although it is a good park in my opinion). I haven't seen enough of Madrid to comment on them."
I agree about Bioparc, it is not exactly the style of Zoo i prefer, as a matter of fact it is one of the least eye rewarding type of zoos that i find atractive, but the space they have given their animals, and especially the large ungulate collection, it's got no rival in Europe, mainly because of the city's climate, the dry savanna and desert exhibits are superior to any other European grassy fenced imination of an African Savanna, not exactly the better looking one, but i have to recognize the it is the best functioning one, i prefer Hannover's African safari theme area a hundred times over, with its Huts, fallen logs, African icons, mature vegetation, i love it, but i would be very wrong to call it a better exhibit that Bioparc's African Area, give then some years and this poor vision might turn out to be the richest in all of Europe.
One Park i disagree with you 100% is FUENGIROLA ZOO, have you seen this place?, it is by far in my opinion the most heavily landscaped zoo in Europe, the art of arquitectural landscape took on another meaning here, it is a sight to see, and the only letdown is the fact that is not big enough, and based on its own space limitations that we can understand, but this small zoo packs a punch, and there is not one single exhibit that is not modern.
Not a zoo, but an aquarium, Valencia Oceanografic, it's by far the most futuristic and best looking aquarium in the world, sure Georgia is bigger and Shedd has more history to it, but when it comes to its artistic design and gorgegous exhibits this Valencia destination makes you wonder what we might see in the future in way of aquariums.
As i mentioned, it is a process in Spain and it will take time, but in 8 to 10 years, they might have the best zoos in Europe, and i think that their only contender is Germany, and they seem to take a very long time to make anything happen.
I agree, London Zoo does have some very above average exhibits, but what i meant was, for a city as fantastic as London, in my opinion again, one of the capital's of the world, i would expect their zoo to be just as impressive as Berlin's or Antwerp or even Bronx, i think Bronx would be the type of zoo that i would have expected London to have, when i first saw a pic of the entrance, i really thought i had the wrong zoo, but then again since i have never visited London Zoo, or lived in London to understand its politics, there might be hundreds of reasons as you well explained a few of them why it can't be done, as far as other zoos in the country nothing strikes me as above average, with the exception of Chester, in my opinion, and based on reviews, pictures and videos, a much better zoo than London, still when i read it was considered one of the top zoos in the world i also expected more.
"However, I'd say they implement this vision poorly. Valencia has a lot of potential, but areas like the gorillas for example are very bare (the same goes for Fuengirola). Barcelona are in the process of a massive change and Terra Natura is probably the "finished product" because of it's theme park connection (although it is a good park in my opinion). I haven't seen enough of Madrid to comment on them."
I agree about Bioparc, it is not exactly the style of Zoo i prefer, as a matter of fact it is one of the least eye rewarding type of zoos that i find atractive, but the space they have given their animals, and especially the large ungulate collection, it's got no rival in Europe, mainly because of the city's climate, the dry savanna and desert exhibits are superior to any other European grassy fenced imination of an African Savanna, not exactly the better looking one, but i have to recognize the it is the best functioning one, i prefer Hannover's African safari theme area a hundred times over, with its Huts, fallen logs, African icons, mature vegetation, i love it, but i would be very wrong to call it a better exhibit that Bioparc's African Area, give then some years and this poor vision might turn out to be the richest in all of Europe.
One Park i disagree with you 100% is FUENGIROLA ZOO, have you seen this place?, it is by far in my opinion the most heavily landscaped zoo in Europe, the art of arquitectural landscape took on another meaning here, it is a sight to see, and the only letdown is the fact that is not big enough, and based on its own space limitations that we can understand, but this small zoo packs a punch, and there is not one single exhibit that is not modern.
Not a zoo, but an aquarium, Valencia Oceanografic, it's by far the most futuristic and best looking aquarium in the world, sure Georgia is bigger and Shedd has more history to it, but when it comes to its artistic design and gorgegous exhibits this Valencia destination makes you wonder what we might see in the future in way of aquariums.
As i mentioned, it is a process in Spain and it will take time, but in 8 to 10 years, they might have the best zoos in Europe, and i think that their only contender is Germany, and they seem to take a very long time to make anything happen.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@all: Lovely discussion so far, with some nice points.
I might contradict most of you all in stating: all in all, there isn't so much difference between European and US zoos -or most of the other zoos all over the world.
They are all institutions keeping and displaying wild (and exotic) animals to the (mostly paying) public. The conditions and problems they have to deal with on a daily basis (may they be of financial, legal, climatic, biological, veterinary...nature) are pretty much the same worldwide (i.e. a tiger is still a tiger and has still "tigerish" needs and features, no matter whether it is kept in Detroit, Hong Kong or Wroclaw).
However, the conditions of and in the zoos can differ due to local conditions (Polar Bears kept in the tropics vs. Polar Bears kept in Alaska), and are mostly influenced by
a) the general attitude of the local society torwards animals and their husbandry (see the "cruel Asians" debate),
b) knowledge and competence of the people in charge
c) money.
A zoo in a Third World country or a tiny zoo somewhere in rural Iowa or Lituania will thus have problems to establish and maintain a gorilla exhibit equal to that in the Bronx Zoo.
Nevertheless, I would be careful to categorise zoos according to nations ("German zoos are like this, UK zoos are like that"...), as previous posts here in this thread fail to notice that there are more than enough exceptions to the rules. Just lumping the few zoos you have been to once (or seen in the Gallery) together, without knowing the larger picture, won't deliver an adequate image.
For example, neither are all European zoos "huge" (think of old inner city zoos like Frankfurt or the already mentioned Antwerp), nor do all American zoos sport immersion exhibits. And I think that the average zoo visitor in Europe is about as impatient as the American one when it comes to looking for hidden animals-just as the visitor remarks are "witty" and "thoughtful" both here and there.
If we look at the history of zoos, we can see that there have been several zoo "trends & fashions" since the late 19th century, when the first zoos in the modern sense (not counting Vienna or Paris) were founded in Europe and the USA. Some of these new trends could establish themselves, some not. All in all, they were supposed to make the zoo in question more profitable and competitive (by getting in more visitors, letting animals live longer etc.), both in Europe and the USA.
The exchange of these trends and ideas has always been of a mutual, international nature (even during the Cold War) that still continues. Advances, discoveries and gained experiences on the fields of (zoo) biology, veterinary medicine, zoo architecture, technology, new materials, a changed visitor attitude, changes in the legislative and finances...further this on and on.
One could say that Carl Hagenbeck imported the idea of panorama exhibits to the US zoos. Now a few major American zoos have become the outriders in some aspects of modern zoo husbandry and have imported their idea of "immersion experiences" since the 1980s/90s both nationally and internationally. You could almost call it a circular continuation...
Given the individual skill and knowledge of the designers in charge, their more or less adequate use of fake rocks, trees, animals, rusting cars...etc., often combined with a very commercial theme-park atmosphere, has been picked up by other zoos in the world-and just as in the USA, with some good, and some bad results. In Europe, the Dutch appear to have been the first in doing so, and in recent years some other European zoos, may they be in Germany (Hannover, Gelsenkirchen...), Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland...etc. jumped on the bandwagon.
"Nihil novi sub sole"-Nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes 1:9) also rings true for the zoo world. Fake "exotic ethnographical" zoo buildings and exhibits, like "Egyptian temples" for giraffes or "Hindu shrines" for zebu cattle were once popular in the early years of modern zoos (think of the elephant or ostrich house in pre-WWII Berlin); now "African villages" or "Hindu temples" are popping up all over again in both American and European zoos. Trends come and go...
Equally noticeable on both sides of the Atlantic is a shift torwards a more uniform species collection and presentation since the 1980s, due to CITES regulation, breeding programs, and said commercialism, most often based on rather crude zoogeographical themes-like Africa = "Savannah" = Lion, Flamingo, Meerkat, Zebra, Asia = "Jungle" = Tiger, Elephant, Reeve's Muntjac, Red Panda... etc etc.
This can be observed in both American and European zoos, and I can't say I'm all too pleased about it. Some readers might remember my comparison to commercial supermarket chain stores, and given that especially in the USA, more and more uniform exhibits are designed by the same few specialised agencies, this tendency torwards conformity seems to increase. However, I'm glad to see that there are still a few zoos (like the one in Plzen) successfully offering resistance.
BTW: "Modern" does not have to mean that something is better - nor is it going to stay that for long...
@reduakari: Can an exhibit really fulfill all demands? I somehow doubt it; in one aspect or another, you will encounter a disadvantage for at least one party involved. Naturalistic exhibits can be more labour intensive and make the prophylaxis and treatment of certain diseases (or pests) more problematic, sometimes even impossible.
I might contradict most of you all in stating: all in all, there isn't so much difference between European and US zoos -or most of the other zoos all over the world.
They are all institutions keeping and displaying wild (and exotic) animals to the (mostly paying) public. The conditions and problems they have to deal with on a daily basis (may they be of financial, legal, climatic, biological, veterinary...nature) are pretty much the same worldwide (i.e. a tiger is still a tiger and has still "tigerish" needs and features, no matter whether it is kept in Detroit, Hong Kong or Wroclaw).
However, the conditions of and in the zoos can differ due to local conditions (Polar Bears kept in the tropics vs. Polar Bears kept in Alaska), and are mostly influenced by
a) the general attitude of the local society torwards animals and their husbandry (see the "cruel Asians" debate),
b) knowledge and competence of the people in charge
c) money.
A zoo in a Third World country or a tiny zoo somewhere in rural Iowa or Lituania will thus have problems to establish and maintain a gorilla exhibit equal to that in the Bronx Zoo.
Nevertheless, I would be careful to categorise zoos according to nations ("German zoos are like this, UK zoos are like that"...), as previous posts here in this thread fail to notice that there are more than enough exceptions to the rules. Just lumping the few zoos you have been to once (or seen in the Gallery) together, without knowing the larger picture, won't deliver an adequate image.
For example, neither are all European zoos "huge" (think of old inner city zoos like Frankfurt or the already mentioned Antwerp), nor do all American zoos sport immersion exhibits. And I think that the average zoo visitor in Europe is about as impatient as the American one when it comes to looking for hidden animals-just as the visitor remarks are "witty" and "thoughtful" both here and there.
If we look at the history of zoos, we can see that there have been several zoo "trends & fashions" since the late 19th century, when the first zoos in the modern sense (not counting Vienna or Paris) were founded in Europe and the USA. Some of these new trends could establish themselves, some not. All in all, they were supposed to make the zoo in question more profitable and competitive (by getting in more visitors, letting animals live longer etc.), both in Europe and the USA.
The exchange of these trends and ideas has always been of a mutual, international nature (even during the Cold War) that still continues. Advances, discoveries and gained experiences on the fields of (zoo) biology, veterinary medicine, zoo architecture, technology, new materials, a changed visitor attitude, changes in the legislative and finances...further this on and on.
One could say that Carl Hagenbeck imported the idea of panorama exhibits to the US zoos. Now a few major American zoos have become the outriders in some aspects of modern zoo husbandry and have imported their idea of "immersion experiences" since the 1980s/90s both nationally and internationally. You could almost call it a circular continuation...
Given the individual skill and knowledge of the designers in charge, their more or less adequate use of fake rocks, trees, animals, rusting cars...etc., often combined with a very commercial theme-park atmosphere, has been picked up by other zoos in the world-and just as in the USA, with some good, and some bad results. In Europe, the Dutch appear to have been the first in doing so, and in recent years some other European zoos, may they be in Germany (Hannover, Gelsenkirchen...), Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland...etc. jumped on the bandwagon.
"Nihil novi sub sole"-Nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes 1:9) also rings true for the zoo world. Fake "exotic ethnographical" zoo buildings and exhibits, like "Egyptian temples" for giraffes or "Hindu shrines" for zebu cattle were once popular in the early years of modern zoos (think of the elephant or ostrich house in pre-WWII Berlin); now "African villages" or "Hindu temples" are popping up all over again in both American and European zoos. Trends come and go...
Equally noticeable on both sides of the Atlantic is a shift torwards a more uniform species collection and presentation since the 1980s, due to CITES regulation, breeding programs, and said commercialism, most often based on rather crude zoogeographical themes-like Africa = "Savannah" = Lion, Flamingo, Meerkat, Zebra, Asia = "Jungle" = Tiger, Elephant, Reeve's Muntjac, Red Panda... etc etc.
This can be observed in both American and European zoos, and I can't say I'm all too pleased about it. Some readers might remember my comparison to commercial supermarket chain stores, and given that especially in the USA, more and more uniform exhibits are designed by the same few specialised agencies, this tendency torwards conformity seems to increase. However, I'm glad to see that there are still a few zoos (like the one in Plzen) successfully offering resistance.
BTW: "Modern" does not have to mean that something is better - nor is it going to stay that for long...@reduakari: Can an exhibit really fulfill all demands? I somehow doubt it; in one aspect or another, you will encounter a disadvantage for at least one party involved. Naturalistic exhibits can be more labour intensive and make the prophylaxis and treatment of certain diseases (or pests) more problematic, sometimes even impossible.
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In a sense, yes, most zoos have lions, flamingos, meerkats, tropical bird house, savannah with zebra and antelope etc. But there are also differences.
Maybe you could comment what about Chinese zoos? Most are terrible. Yet recently I saw pictures of really enormous walk-thru aviairies and surprisingly spacious exhibits. Also, buildings tend to be gigantic - even in animals are in tiny cages.
Unexpectedly, many best exhibits are in smalltown zoos! In Europe this is, for example Dutch zoos in Arnhem and Emmen, in USA eg. Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum.
But its a bit of a side topic.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@Jurek7: Most of the Chinese zoos I've been to were (and probably still are) negatively affected by the a)-c) aspects. However, the attitude torwards animals in China is slowly changing, and with the right people and money, Chinese zoos are certainly going to improve, like the Giant Panda center in Chengdu illustrates. The "gigantic" features is a bit of a "East Bloc" "show off" mentality-like the Alfred-Brehm-House in Tierpark Berlin. There is even an old GDR joke about it: "Japanese technicians constructed a TV the size of a matchbox. Their GDR colleagues responded by building a matchbox the size of a TV"...
It's not just the particular species that are kept, but the whole concept of zoo husbandry and presentation as well as things have to be run tobe profitable, in which zoos all over the world resemble each other.
The most important thing I wanted to convey is that if we talk of "traditions" and thus of a historical context, American and European zoos are constantly influencing each other.
And your hint is correct; Arnheim, Emmen and Tucson aren't big cities. However, they are not tiny either, and especially in regard to the densely populated Netherlands, have a rather large catchment area.
It's not just the particular species that are kept, but the whole concept of zoo husbandry and presentation as well as things have to be run tobe profitable, in which zoos all over the world resemble each other.
The most important thing I wanted to convey is that if we talk of "traditions" and thus of a historical context, American and European zoos are constantly influencing each other.
And your hint is correct; Arnheim, Emmen and Tucson aren't big cities. However, they are not tiny either, and especially in regard to the densely populated Netherlands, have a rather large catchment area.
Miniaturezoo954
Well-Known Member
In certain cases, when an individual is dedicated enough, a single visit to an institution and hundreds of hours of research can tell a great deal, this just happens to be the case.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
Sorry, that I doubt; even from a basic statistical point, a single institution/visit (sample) is not representative enough to make any valid judgement about the collectivity one is looking at. All too often, this will lead to a rash, wrongful dictum. To name just an example: I don't think that Germans in general are any more or less "obsessed" about visiting zoos than Americans, British, Spanish or Australians, as you stated before. Germany is just a densely populated, large Central European country with a large and (rather) wealthy middle class and a quite long tradition of zoos and keeping (exotic) animals in general. Even the percentage of German zoo "geeks" and fans in this forum isn't that particular high to talk of a general German obsession with zoos.
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Miniaturezoo954
Well-Known Member
Exactly, if you read my post you can see that is just a ratification of what you have just wrote, i do not think Germans (GENERAL ZOO VISITORS) are in love with keeping track of how many individuals of a particular zoo species are there in the institution, or how exactly was this exihibit thought off and developed, and yes if Zoochat was any indication of the taste of the general public outthere (by the way is not) or even the great majority of zoo visitors (is not) then one could make a fine point, that there might be very little zoo insterest in Germany, but the fact is that i was not referring to any of this (in the case of Germans) my quote of German being obsessed with visiting zoos, has a deeper meaning, a much larger explanation, just an example you might understand better, if you ask your average German (Middle class family as you well put it) after their montly schedule zoo visit, "how was the zoo?, would you visit again"
they might answer, "sure why not, is a great place to spend some time with your family, i particulary like this animal or that exhibit", ask the same question to your average american family, and might get very different answers, in part because this is a much bigger country with a much diverse popullation, but in any case the great majority of this answers will come in the form of a complain, an insult or a simple, america's favorite zoo quote "the ................. zoo is a place that anybody should visit once in their life", we might disagree when it comes to some of the european cultures, since i was purely especulating based on my own experiences when living in Europe and a great amount of posts that are written daily in this forum. Did you noticed that there are not many Germans, but a massive amount of British and Australians?, i will soon visit Singapore Zoo later on the year, and i can tell you that the amount of information that i will bring back from that visit, could take the average person, weeks to collect, purely because they will not be interested in any of it, i might be the crazy person in your local zoo, interviewing people and getting their thoughts in the place, this i do a lot, i happen to love it.
And one last thing, i'm not trying to generalize and place the whole country into this group of people that i have meet, or that post here in this forum, countries and cultures are extremely complicated and go very deep, and it would be naive of me to say i know exactly what is going on with european zoo visitors, even germans, (a country where i lived over two years of my life) but maybe i should concentrate in South Florida and tell you that the crowds here are nasty to say the least, and when in a zoo (i happen to find myself in one often) you really feel like comitting mass murder when you here some of the comments that come out groups of people, especially African American groups and my vey own Hispanics, i really do not blame this people at the end, it is just their culture that has shaped their taste, but please do not tell me that there is any similarity in this people when it comes ot zoos to your average german, that my dear friend i will not even buy for one cent.
they might answer, "sure why not, is a great place to spend some time with your family, i particulary like this animal or that exhibit", ask the same question to your average american family, and might get very different answers, in part because this is a much bigger country with a much diverse popullation, but in any case the great majority of this answers will come in the form of a complain, an insult or a simple, america's favorite zoo quote "the ................. zoo is a place that anybody should visit once in their life", we might disagree when it comes to some of the european cultures, since i was purely especulating based on my own experiences when living in Europe and a great amount of posts that are written daily in this forum. Did you noticed that there are not many Germans, but a massive amount of British and Australians?, i will soon visit Singapore Zoo later on the year, and i can tell you that the amount of information that i will bring back from that visit, could take the average person, weeks to collect, purely because they will not be interested in any of it, i might be the crazy person in your local zoo, interviewing people and getting their thoughts in the place, this i do a lot, i happen to love it.
And one last thing, i'm not trying to generalize and place the whole country into this group of people that i have meet, or that post here in this forum, countries and cultures are extremely complicated and go very deep, and it would be naive of me to say i know exactly what is going on with european zoo visitors, even germans, (a country where i lived over two years of my life) but maybe i should concentrate in South Florida and tell you that the crowds here are nasty to say the least, and when in a zoo (i happen to find myself in one often) you really feel like comitting mass murder when you here some of the comments that come out groups of people, especially African American groups and my vey own Hispanics, i really do not blame this people at the end, it is just their culture that has shaped their taste, but please do not tell me that there is any similarity in this people when it comes ot zoos to your average german, that my dear friend i will not even buy for one cent.
Sun Wukong
Well-Known Member
@Miniaturezoo954: No offence, but I still disagree in some points withyou: especially in its larger cities, Germany has become almost as heterogenous in the variety of potential zoo visitors as America; I would even guess that some parts of the USA (especially outside the big cities) are more "homogenous" in this regard than the Germans. However, in both countries, the majority of zoo visitors are families with kids, and, given the rising prices for zoo tickets, usually the ones that can afford the visit (which doesn't mean that you do not have your local lower class people mingled in between). Therefore, (and since having worked and spent some time in zoos in both countries, I can confirm that personally), the opinions and remarks are similar. There's even a survey about zoo visitors' misinterpretations of tapirs in both German and American zoos in the International Zoo News Vol. 47/3 (No. 300), April/May 2000 issue; not much of a difference there either.
Visitors can indeed be nasty here and there, no doubt about it-and what your African American and Latinos are in South Florida, are the noisy and uneducated kids of Turkish, North African, "Jugoslawian" or German-Russian origin in German zoos. And don't forget German "white trash"... Can I please have my one cent now? And what is your deeper meaning? That Germans are more frugal and swear less? I wish that were true; other European countries usually have a very different image of them in this regard...
To answer your question why there are not that many Germans around: because they, and the Austrians and German-speaking Swiss, have zoo forums on their own, like
tiergarten.com - The online-shop of Schüling Buchkurier or
Zoofreunde Board
Only few of them feel the need to discuss zoos in English on an international level. A shame, if you ask me.
The next time you come to an European zoo, feel free to contact me; maybe I can help you find the right zoo people to drain all information from.
Visitors can indeed be nasty here and there, no doubt about it-and what your African American and Latinos are in South Florida, are the noisy and uneducated kids of Turkish, North African, "Jugoslawian" or German-Russian origin in German zoos. And don't forget German "white trash"...
Can I please have my one cent now? And what is your deeper meaning? That Germans are more frugal and swear less? I wish that were true; other European countries usually have a very different image of them in this regard...To answer your question why there are not that many Germans around: because they, and the Austrians and German-speaking Swiss, have zoo forums on their own, like
tiergarten.com - The online-shop of Schüling Buchkurier or
Zoofreunde Board
Only few of them feel the need to discuss zoos in English on an international level. A shame, if you ask me.
The next time you come to an European zoo, feel free to contact me; maybe I can help you find the right zoo people to drain all information from.