Anyone know which zoos in the United States have dingoes? I know it's not a whole lot since Australian laws make it difficult to export them.
Dingoes in American zoos?
- Thread starter TheMightyOrca
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Fort Wayne Children's Zoo, Cleveland Metroparks Zoo, and Prospect Park Zoo have them.
redghost007
Member
Aren't NZ singing dogs and dingos the same species or at least very similar. Not sure but I swear I read that somewhere. I saw the NZ singing dogs in KC awhile back, pretty cool. I have also seen dingos somewhere else, just have to think on it.
JBZvolunteer
Well-Known Member
The DeYoung Family Zoo has both Dingos and New Guinea Singing Dogs.
zooboy28
Well-Known Member
Its not NZ Singing Dogs, but NG Singing Dogs - New Guinea not New Zealand. Dingoes, NGSD, domestic dogs and wolves all belong to the same species (although this is greatly debated), and NGSD and Dingoes are sister taxa within that species (although they are different subspecies).
If you count New Guinea Singing Dogs, then Kansas City Zoo, Miller Park Zoo, Palm Beach Zoo, San Diego Zoo, Tampa's Lowry Park Zoo, Tautphaus Park Zoo, and Zoo Miami also holds them, in addition to previously mentioned facilities.
cloudedleopard
Well-Known Member
Dingoes
Toledo
Cleveland
Fort Wayne
Toledo
Cleveland
Fort Wayne
At the risk of sounding offensive (this is only my opinion), they are feral domestic dogs that have no place in a zoo and waste space that could be used for any number of truly wild canids.
I won't take offense, but the dingo is certainly not a "feral dog". There is some debate as to if it is a wild sub-species of wolf , or at a midpoint somewhere between a wild animal and a domestic animal.
Anyone who has had the chance to look closely at the behaviour of domestic dogs and "tame" dingoes, as well as feral dogs (plenty of them in Australia) and wild dingoes can clearly see dingoes are not just dogs.
I certainly agree that zoos should work as a priority with threatened taxa, but there are plenty of other examples of zoos choosing "common" taxa over threatened taxa.
As it happens the IUCN now classifies dingoes as vulnerable. However your point still stands because, as with all Australian taxa, all conservation relevant work will be confined to Australia.
How did wild wolves get to Australia? They did not, they are feral dogs brought over by Aborigones. The real debate (I think) centers on whether they have been feral for so long that they have essentially become a wild animal once more. The conservation value, if there is one, is that they have taken over the predatorial role of the thylacine (which they likely drove out). Personally I do not think they have much (or any) conservation value or value in a zoo, but I do not pretend to be an expert so this is just my opinion.
I think here in the USA the closest analogy would be mustangs, or so-called wild horses. Yet no American zoos that I know of would think of devoting a hoofstock exhibit to mustangs.
I think here in the USA the closest analogy would be mustangs, or so-called wild horses. Yet no American zoos that I know of would think of devoting a hoofstock exhibit to mustangs.
Clearly they are an introduced species, there is no doubt about that.
Aboriginals arrived 50,000 to 60,000 years ago. Dingoes however arrived maybe 4,000 to 6,000 years ago so no Aboriginals did not bring dingoes to Australia. Of course nobody really knows how it happened, but the most commonly suggested scenario is that they arrived in the boats of early Asian seafarers who brought them across as food. Indeed it may only have been one pregnant female that escaped, as the genetic base of dingoes is very narrow.
The implication of an assertion that they "feral dogs" is that they are another breed of dog like a beagle or a labrador. The facts are
1. Dingoes are genetically and behaviorally distinct from domestic dogs.
2. Dingoes have never been selectively bred by humans to "improve the type" as have domestic dogs.
Dingoes and dogs are obviously closely related but dingoes are not descended from dogs. This is quite different to mustangs, which are clearly descended from domesticated animal.
Your point of view regarding their conservation value is quite valid and often debated here in Australia, but the consensus at this point of time is that they do have a conservation value.
But I totally agree that zoos outside Australia should concentrate on other taxa of high conservation value.
I would say that dingoes are now a feral species that has become wild. It is widely believed that dingoes contributed to if not caused the extinction of the thylacine on mainland Australia (it survived on Tas because dingoes never got there) so the dingoes have replaced the thylacine and are filling their ecological niche. However dingoes do, I agree have no place in Australia and if the thylacine still survived (it may do but at the risk of annoying ThylacineAlive I doubt it) I would be for them replacing dingoes.
San Diego does have a burro exhibit.
This is an interesting discussion and I am learning a lot. I just assume that if the ancestor of the dingo was brought over by people that it would be a domestic dog. It seems unlikely to me that people would be carrying wild gray wolves on ships, but it is certainly possible. I wonder what others think of this.
I know nothing of their behavior or genetics; I am just an amateur and all I have to go by is appearance (morphology). Based on appearance, they look a lot more like a domestic dog than a gray wolf to me. In fact there are some domestic breeds (German shepherd, husky, etc) that look more like a wolf than a dingo does. BTW I am using dingo in the wider sense to include singing dogs.
I know nothing of their behavior or genetics; I am just an amateur and all I have to go by is appearance (morphology). Based on appearance, they look a lot more like a domestic dog than a gray wolf to me. In fact there are some domestic breeds (German shepherd, husky, etc) that look more like a wolf than a dingo does. BTW I am using dingo in the wider sense to include singing dogs.
zooboy28
Well-Known Member
Dingos are apparently fairly closely related to the South and South-east Asian wolves/dogs, including the Indian Wolf. I think they have strong conservation value - studies have shown much higher diversity and abundance of threatened small mammal species in Australia where dingos are present, as they reduce the abundance of feral cats and foxes which prey heavily on these animals. Sure, a thylacine might be better, but the dingo is of huge value to Australian biodiversity.
I suppose so but are dingoes any better than feral cats and foxes themselves?
zooboy28
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I understand your question. I think "better" needs a context. But I can't think of any ways in which feral cats or foxes are benefitting Australian biodiversity, while there are clear benefits of having dingos around.
I though I'd just clarify a couple of things I said earlier.
Firstly around domestication and whether the dingo is a "feral dog". My definition of a dog is a domesticated grey wolf, most probably decedent from the nominate European subspecies. Domestication to me implies selective breeding designed to "improve" the breed to make them more useful to humans. This is done by controlling which male mates with which female.
This has never happened with the dingo, and it is not a descendant of a domesticated dog breed. However it has been suggested that the dingo is "semi-domesticated", that is it is at the same point as dog ancestors that started hanging around human campsites, and started to develop a mutually beneficial relationship with humans. This is of course interesting in it's own right, because it would give us a window into our own history.
Some also seems to think of the wolf as being the typical European grey wolf or the very similar North American version. However Canus lupus is a very diverse and wide-ranging species with a large number of sub-species. It is found throughout the Northern hemisphere from the tropics to the arctic. Wolf sub-species follow Bergmans rule by becoming smaller as they approach the equator.
Given that wolves found in warmer climates do not need the heavy pelts found further north, it is not surprising that the wolf most people are familiar with looks a lot bigger than a dingo. Nor is it surprising that some dog breeds look a lot like an European gray wolf, as they are all descendents of them. What is surprising is that wolves ended up looking like King Charles Cavalier Spaniels! Look into the face of a dingo though, and you can definitely see the wolf there.
Dingos also have a number of features in common with wild wolves that are different from dogs, including teeth arrangements, howling not barking, and only one estrus cycle per year. Dogs of course usually have two.
We do not know how the dingo got to Australia, food for a voyage seems the most likely option as until refrigeration seafarers frequently took live animals with them for fresh meat. Whether they grabbed a semi-domesticated camp follower or took whatever wild animal happened to be in the pit trap that day, we will never know.
There are several examples of animals that are believed to have been introduced to other parts of the world in pre-history or antiquity only to become naturalized and accepted as part of the native fauna. Elephants in Borneo and rabbits and natterjack toads in the UK spring to mind.
Lastly Australian law defines a native species as any species that was present in Australia prior to 1400.
Firstly around domestication and whether the dingo is a "feral dog". My definition of a dog is a domesticated grey wolf, most probably decedent from the nominate European subspecies. Domestication to me implies selective breeding designed to "improve" the breed to make them more useful to humans. This is done by controlling which male mates with which female.
This has never happened with the dingo, and it is not a descendant of a domesticated dog breed. However it has been suggested that the dingo is "semi-domesticated", that is it is at the same point as dog ancestors that started hanging around human campsites, and started to develop a mutually beneficial relationship with humans. This is of course interesting in it's own right, because it would give us a window into our own history.
Some also seems to think of the wolf as being the typical European grey wolf or the very similar North American version. However Canus lupus is a very diverse and wide-ranging species with a large number of sub-species. It is found throughout the Northern hemisphere from the tropics to the arctic. Wolf sub-species follow Bergmans rule by becoming smaller as they approach the equator.
Given that wolves found in warmer climates do not need the heavy pelts found further north, it is not surprising that the wolf most people are familiar with looks a lot bigger than a dingo. Nor is it surprising that some dog breeds look a lot like an European gray wolf, as they are all descendents of them. What is surprising is that wolves ended up looking like King Charles Cavalier Spaniels! Look into the face of a dingo though, and you can definitely see the wolf there.
Dingos also have a number of features in common with wild wolves that are different from dogs, including teeth arrangements, howling not barking, and only one estrus cycle per year. Dogs of course usually have two.
We do not know how the dingo got to Australia, food for a voyage seems the most likely option as until refrigeration seafarers frequently took live animals with them for fresh meat. Whether they grabbed a semi-domesticated camp follower or took whatever wild animal happened to be in the pit trap that day, we will never know.
There are several examples of animals that are believed to have been introduced to other parts of the world in pre-history or antiquity only to become naturalized and accepted as part of the native fauna. Elephants in Borneo and rabbits and natterjack toads in the UK spring to mind.
Lastly Australian law defines a native species as any species that was present in Australia prior to 1400.
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wensleydale
Well-Known Member
My mother used to know a dog trainer. One day she called her friend and heard a howling in the background. She asked her friend what it was. It was a New Guinea Singing Dog. Presumably it had a private owner. Is that like a Dingo?