Do zoos have a place in modern society?

This is the direct result of consumer activism
Companies call for tougher sustainability standards for palm oil | Guardian Sustainable Business | The Guardian

A fine example of how zoos can raise awareness about conservation issues and, if they choose, mobilize action that can have results.
Zoos in general have avoided encouraging their members and visitors to become advocates but that is changing.
https://www.aza.org/SAFE-education-goals/

And I see we agree that zoos creating alternate livelihoods for local palm oil farmers is not really a valid project as that is not the cause of the problems.
So aside from arguments about captive breeding and reintroductions, there is this aspect of wildlife conservation and zoos to be credited.
 
I'm pleased to read both other the links, thanks for sharing. I know wild futures has an ambassador program where people take their message back to their own communities at public events. Though this could be problematic having passionate members of public out spreading the message as it could be a pr disaster.

I wonder if working with agencies such as Sea Shepard and PETA to try and tone down the big dramatic attention seeking actions could change public opinion about them from glorified thugs to organisations push for the same changes the public want to see
 
monkeyarmy said:
I wonder if working with agencies such as Sea Shepard and PETA to try and tone down the big dramatic attention seeking actions could change public opinion about them from glorified thugs to organisations push for the same changes the public want to see
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As with so many conflicts, there needs to be the will to change. I am not convinced that either "side" wishes to be on the same "side"
 
I personally have been laughing at this thread a lot! If it is meant to ba a debate, the first post, introducing the debate, should be unbiased, when the first post was very biased.

Funding Finder | National Lottery Good Causes
Have a look at that, if you propose to get lottery funding (presuming you don't mean just playing until you win), from this it appears you can't get funding. If for example you opened to the public and were a charity you probably could or if for example you allowed disabled people to interact with the animals, and call it therapy, you probably could. They wouldn't fund a private collection (which it would be, even if you give it a fancy name like a 'sanctuary'). And remember, even if it just for Callitrichids, it would cost a lot. How would you propose housing them? Would you go for aviary type enclosures or large open top enclosures? Remember you will need large warm housing, staff, so said venture would cost a lot.
 
Macaw16 said:
I personally have been laughing at this thread a lot! If it is meant to ba a debate, the first post, introducing the debate, should be unbiased, when the first post was very biased.

Funding Finder | National Lottery Good Causes
Have a look at that, if you propose to get lottery funding (presuming you don't mean just playing until you win), from this it appears you can't get funding. If for example you opened to the public and were a charity you probably could or if for example you allowed disabled people to interact with the animals, and call it therapy, you probably could. They wouldn't fund a private collection (which it would be, even if you give it a fancy name like a 'sanctuary'). And remember, even if it just for Callitrichids, it would cost a lot. How would you propose housing them? Would you go for aviary type enclosures or large open top enclosures? Remember you will need large warm housing, staff, so said venture would cost a lot.
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Thanks for the business advice, to think I spent 3 years planning including consulting with simular set ups, sat through lengthy tax and employment law courses, funding presentations ( one of which was run by the lottery fund), pitching to banks to get the funding I already have and building a website and educational material when I could have just come on here and asked you! No idea what your current job is but you should leave it and set your own business advising start up you could call it " Mecaws start up agencies, we specialise stating the obvious" you clearly have the skills for it!
 
monkeyarmy said:
Courtesy?! I've been polite in all my responses to people on this thread I'm the one being attacked personally. A cynic would argue sinking to personal insults and spelling remarks demonstrates a lack of ability to engage with the question in hand.
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monkeyarmy said:
Thanks for the business advice, to think I spent 3 years planning including consulting with simular set ups, sat through lengthy tax and employment law courses, funding presentations ( one of which was run by the lottery fund), pitching to banks to get the funding I already have and building a website and educational material when I could have just come on here and asked you! No idea what your current job is but you should leave it and set your own business advising start up you could call it " Mecaws start up agencies, we specialise stating the obvious" you clearly have the skills for it!
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That is an example of one of many post lacking 'politeness' (actually both are, in all honesty). Please when you post, think about other posts you have posted.

Anyway you can't expect me to know everything about you. I was trying to be polite and help you, I won't try to help in the future if all you do is attack my help (and I don't think anybody else will if you are like that about any help you receive). Also, why would I name something with a terrible spelling mistake in?
 
Macaw16 said:
That is an example of one of many post lacking 'politeness' (actually both are, in all honesty). Please when you post, think about other posts you have posted.
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You have poked and poked and spoken to me like I'm an idiot so, although I'll be eternally ashamed, I bit. You have contributed nothing to the conversation, just made silly remarks and stated the obvious. So why are you here? If you see no truth or point in the discussion why read it?
 
Macaw16 said:
That is an example of one of many post lacking 'politeness' (actually both are, in all honesty). Please when you post, think about other posts you have posted.

Anyway you can't expect me to know everything about you. I was trying to be polite and help you, I won't try to help in the future if all you do is attack my help (and I don't think anybody else will if you are like that about any help you receive). Also, why would I name something with a terrible spelling mistake in?
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Sorry with the tone of your previous posts I just thought you were being snarky. I have thoroughly researched and costed everything. I am fully aware it is going to be an expensive venture with little financial reward but I feel it is so important I wouldn't feel ok not doing it.
 
monkeyarmy said:
Sorry with the tone of your previous posts I just thought you were being snarky. I have thoroughly researched and costed everything. I am fully aware it is going to be an expensive venture with little financial reward but I feel it is so important I wouldn't feel ok not doing it.
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I wish you good luck, and think it is a worthy cause. From your previous posts I wasn't sure if you had done much research.
 
monkeyarmy said:
They fund alsorts of projects, mine will benefit the rescue of primates from the UK pet trade, the other side of the enterprise will be community engagement and education. This is all I'm prepared to say on the subject on a thread completely unrelated
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Leaving aside the fact of lottery or other funding, which you don't want to comment on.
I don't think I understand much of what you have stated about your goal, firstly I can't see how you can engage a community with out displaying the animals, how are you going to educate and engage them? and what is wrong with displaying them in nice well built naturalistic set ups? you can still show photos of how they had been kept before,- such as the little zoo on Minorca does with their rescued crab eating macaques-. to educate people in the correct husbandry of the creatures concerned.

And why do YOU need to have your own sanctuary when you could work for an already functioning one? Or is it the idea YOU want to have the animals yourself rather than share them or let others keep them?

On another point you make of people keeping monkeys in bird cages the 2009 ? animal welfare bill does say that you are in breach of the law if the animal you keep can't exhibit natural behavior due to improper housing for the species being kept.(paraphrased) So people should be prosecuted if they are keeping them in bird cages. Of course that in it's self could be misleading as most people think of a bird cage as a small wire think on a stand with a single budgie in it. But to anti animal keepers an aviary is a bird cage however large it may be. What is your idea of a bird cage?
 
Dean do you know anything about dinosaurs ? Deep sea creatures? Ever seen a whale shark in the flesh? Presumingly you know what a Neanderthal is? Bet you've never seen one though! Whilst visual learning is helpful it isn't the be all and can be achieved in other ways. I have a background in education and community engagement so I know what I'm talking about. I intend to go to schools, colleges, youth groups, family centers etc to offer educational and fun sessions. I also intend to offer specialised sessions for schools and organisations for people with learning disabilities as they are often not catered for by other organisations and zoos.


The law isn't clear for example Monkey World with the help of the rspca and the police removed a family of capuchins as the owner were selling the babies far too young; however when the case went to court the judged ruled the owner had done nothing wrong, having company of their own kind is ideal it is not guaranteed by law. Most victims of the primate pet trade require no license therefore it is difficult to identify primates that are being kept poorly. The majority of primates that end up in rescues are from owners who have asked for them to be rescued as they have realised they can't meet the primates needs. As for what a bird cage or hamster cages or various other inappropriate cages monkeys have be rescued from the size is the important issue not what it was built for so if there is a cage the size of someone's back garden and it's been adapted to meet the monkeys needs there is no problem. The problem is when people keep primates alone in small cages in their houses. Marmosets and other small monkeys require Sun light to create vitamin d which helps calcium be absorbed to create healthy bones, so any enclosure that has no outside access is inappropriate.


As for why I don't work for a current rescue there's many reasons but the main one being rescues are full as in no space for marmosets. Rescues are operating waiting lists for marmosets, so one has to die for another to be rescued. This is why there needs to be more centres and dedicated educational services especially as the numbers of primates especially marmosets are on the increase.

Dean do you go to independent shops or other organisations and ask why they exist?
 
dean said:
On another point you make of people keeping monkeys in bird cages the 2009 ? animal welfare bill does say that you are in breach of the law if the animal you keep can't exhibit natural behavior due to improper housing for the species being kept.(paraphrased) So people should be prosecuted if they are keeping them in bird cages. Of course that in it's self could be misleading as most people think of a bird cage as a small wire think on a stand with a single budgie in it. But to anti animal keepers an aviary is a bird cage however large it may be. What is your idea of a bird cage?
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How come it's legal to sell those horrible little hamster cages then? If anyone wanted to make a difference to animal welfare they'd campaign against them.

It would nice to split this thread and have one discussing monkeyarm's business and one focusing on the original theme.
 
Ned said:
How come it's legal to sell those horrible little hamster cages then? If anyone wanted to make a difference to animal welfare they'd campaign against them.
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No idea Ned I have wondered that myself, I believe it is also illegal to sell a rabbit hutch to small for the rabbit to stand up in and to use a bowl for a goldfish etc, but may be people don't know about the law? or possibly it was watered down at the last moment
 
Or businesses are greedy and don't care about the animals ?

Also the idea you need to see an animal to learn about it is a myth created by zoos to justify their existence.
 
Whilst campaigning against small cages is a worthy cause it is avoiding the actual issue of people keeping monkeys in them and greedy dealers telling owners they are ok.
 
Ned said:
It would nice to split this thread and have one discussing monkeyarm's business and one focusing on the original theme.
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I'd be inclined to suggest that we no longer discuss the business monkeyarmy intends to start, as it is superfluous to the discussion at hand and is preventing the larger debate from getting anywhere.

This goes for all parties concerned: I'd like the established membership to focus on discussing the initial post by monkeyarmy, and I'd also like monkeyarmy to actually acknowledge and discuss the counterpoints raised. If the matter of a hypothetical business is raised, it should be tied to the overall discussion and *not* a digression which allows the OP to avoid replying to anything else said.
 
I'm not avoiding anything and have said I don't wish to talk about the business, not hypothesis by the way, but questions kept being asked.

What points do you want me to address?
 
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Also the idea you need to see an animal to learn about it is a myth created by zoos to justify their existence.
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I don't think zoos ave created a myth that you need to see animals to learn about them, they do however believe that you can learn something from experiencing animals in life and not just in books.
 
You have raised no points for me to discuss only pointed out I was wronf, which I accept. However, reintroducing corncrakes and mountain chicken frogs to Cambridge and Monserate is a very different prospect to returning Sumatran tigers back to the wild or lowland gorillas or any other of their endangered species that are not so straight forward. I've looked but can't find any evidence they are working on or close to releasing any gorillas, big cats or any other of the species that have been affected by multiple mostly man made issues?

I accept zoos are doing more conservation than I thought but how do we measure it's effectiveness if no species are being returned to the wild?
 
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