Does "compassionate conservation" work?

Managed herds of a diverse range of large herbivores is probably the best we can do now in the Netherlands until we learn to live with wolf, lynx and boar.

What do you think the long term prospects of this coexistance are in the Netherlands ?

I'm not sure about lynx but I know that wolves (I read that there is evidence of these animals returning to Belgium and France) and boar are slowly recolonising a lot of areas of Europe where they were historically extirpated.

Maybe this is just an erroneous cultural stereotype (so please correct me if I'm wrong or being over idealistic) but I sort of expect that the Dutch will be a lot more open minded about sharing the landscape with these animals than many of the neighbouring countries.
 
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What do you think the long term prospects of this coexistance are in the Netherlands ?

I'm not sure about lynx but I know that wolves (I read that there are signs of them returning to Belgium and France) and boar are slowly recolonising a lot of areas of Europe where they were historically extirpated

Maybe this is just an erroneous cultural stereotype (so correct me if I'm wrong) but I sort of expect that the Dutch will be a lot more open minded about sharing the landscape with these animals than many of the neighbouring countries.

The Dutch have a reputation for being progressive, but in fact can be notoriously conservative (they are last in EU with renewable energy....), but at least the hunting lobby is not as strong as in other countries. Surveys have shown that overall there is support for Wolves in the country, but there is resistance from e.g. farmers. Slowly all Dutch regions where Wolves come are now following the successful German example in protecting livestock with proper fencing and reimbursing kills (which happen mostly from single Wolves now). Looking at overall damage payments, the vast vast majority still goes to damage done by Geese.

Overall Wolves are well protected and they will live successfully with humans I think once the struggles in the settling phase are over. With Wild Boars there are "restricted areas" where they can occur and outside they will be hunted (numbers are also controlled within these areas...). Lynx could eventually come and they hardly give any human-wildlife conflicts given their shyness and abundance of Roe Deer... Only Brown Bear could be a problem, but it is unlikely they will ever return naturally....
 
The Dutch have a reputation for being progressive, but in fact can be notoriously conservative (they are last in EU with renewable energy....), but at least the hunting lobby is not as strong as in other countries. Surveys have shown that overall there is support for Wolves in the country, but there is resistance from e.g. farmers. Slowly all Dutch regions where Wolves come are now following the successful German example in protecting livestock with proper fencing and reimbursing kills (which happen mostly from single Wolves now). Looking at overall damage payments, the vast vast majority still goes to damage done by Geese.

Overall Wolves are well protected and they will live successfully with humans I think once the struggles in the settling phase are over. With Wild Boars there are "restricted areas" where they can occur and outside they will be hunted (numbers are also controlled within these areas...). Lynx could eventually come and they hardly give any human-wildlife conflicts given their shyness and abundance of Roe Deer... Only Brown Bear could be a problem, but it is unlikely they will ever return naturally....

Very interesting ! Thank you for your reply!

It doesn't come as a suprise to me that there is still resistance from some sectors of society like farmers.

I really hope that a coexistence is achieved but as you've mentioned there are bound to be some struggles during the settling phase.
 
"Compassionate Conservation" for invasive species is complete nonsense. I've heard the argument that these invasive are filling in roles left empty by the ice age megafauna, an example of this being that hippos replace extinct large camelids.

Honestly, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard from a scientific paper. They don't take into account that these "replacements" have impacts on the ecosystems the extinct megafauna wouldn't have had. The Hippos when they defecate have caused algae blooms. As someone who has shown alpacas at my county fair, I can confirm that camelids don't defecate in water and thus is do not cause algae blooms.

And about these compassionate conservationists, I really need to ask.

Why, why, why, why, why is it that these "compassionate conservationists" are the exact type you'd probably expect to find in an animal right organization?
 
"Compassionate Conservation" for invasive species is complete nonsense. I've heard the argument that these invasive are filling in roles left empty by the ice age megafauna, an example of this being that hippos replace extinct large camelids.

Honestly, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard from a scientific paper. They don't take into account that these "replacements" have impacts on the ecosystems the extinct megafauna wouldn't have had. The Hippos when they defecate have caused algae blooms. As someone who has shown alpacas at my county fair, I can confirm that camelids don't defecate in water and thus is do not cause algae blooms.

And about these compassionate conservationists, I really need to ask.

Why, why, why, why, why is it that these "compassionate conservationists" are the exact type you'd probably expect to find in an animal right organization?

There are a number of controversial ecologists and academics who actually advocate invasive species as "the new wild" and have written some interesting if predictable books on the subject.

Their argument follows that the spread of and colonization by resilient invasive species outside their original / native range will lead to more versatile and resilient ecosystems which will essentially come to replace native biota / fauna and flora and become the "new wild" in the coming centuries.

Personally I think this is food for thought and an interesting theory but I really don't find this argument very compelling at all and I'm very much in favour of controlling and erradicating harmful invasive species wherever and whenever possible.

By the way, I'm not sure what you mean with your point on camelids on the subject of hippos in Colombia :confused:....There are no native camelids species that far north into Colombia where the hippos have been introduced and the only ungulates in that region of the Magdalena river are tapir, peccary and deer.
 
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I see, my bad.

One of the main issues with these kinds of papers / articles and appeals relating to invasive species is not just that these are often factually incorrect and based on wishful thinking but that they are made by academics sitting in ivory towers half way across the world.

There is a huge and very real disconnect between academia and real world / practitioner conservation.
 
I found this article just today that relates to this topic. Hoo boy.

"Following the advice of so-called experts, all cattle have been removed on nearly one million acres surrounding Circle Ranch. Populations of the native species, especially bighorn, that these measures were intended to help have declined dramatically, since the removals and eradications began in earnest around 2008."

And let's ignore the fact that desert bighorn populations have increased in other areas without cattle such as the Desert National Wildlife Refuge. These sheep don't rely on cattle or other large grazers for their survival.

"In far-West Texas TPWD and BRI along with Texas Bighorn Society (TBS) insist that Desert Bighorn Sheep reintroductions must include these costly attacks on nature if the reintroductions are to succeed. This premise which is the subject of the paper and article below, is unsupported by science, contradicted by the living example of healthy ecosystems like the Serengeti, recent developments at Yellowstone National Park, and the experience of restorative ecological managers worldwide, including us at Circle Ranch."

Let me just say before I go on, I do agree with the author on the issue with native predators and agree that they'd be helpful in controlling invasive species if they learn how to catch them. Cougars, after all, do hunt aoudads. I do not agree that the Serengeti can be used to contradict what he's arguing against because all the species in that ecosystem have co-evolved for millions of years and are ecologically different enough to coexist. Besides, the Serengeti is a much more resource-abundant place than dry places of Texas are, which intensifies competition.


"“Competition” is a favorite buzzword of invasive species biology. The term has become embedded in wildlife thinking as part of what amounts to a body of religious beliefs. As used by the authors, “competition” includes harmless things like eating, drinking, or surviving in a hostile environment. This paper’s core assumption is that these natural behaviors of aoudads harm bighorn sheep. No evidence is offered for this assumption, which is presented as self-evident. “Competition” is not defined.

The authors say that defenders of aoudad claim they and bighorn occupy completely different ecological niches. This is not what I think. Let us stipulate to the self-evident: Aoudad do well in our declining desert grasslands, and all herbivores eat plants and drink water. Why is that bad? If it is bad and if aoudad compete with bighorn, do bighorn sheep compete with native deer, pronghorn, elk, cattle, cougar, coyotes, foxes and the rest? What are the distinctions? What science justifies these assumptions?

Is biodiversity good or bad? Are multiple species, and multiple individual animals, complementary or competitive? All of these creatures eat the same plants some of the time, and the plants require the animal impact in order to be healthy. Every animal will drink free water when available. So where is the evidence that overlapping diets or water use is harmful in nature?"


Yes, biodiversity is very good because that means healthy ecosystems. what the author is not understanding is that in nature there is what's called the Competitive Exclusion Principle which states that no two species can have the exact same niche in the exact same place at the exact same time. The reason is that simply put, some animals are better at a niche than others. Take the cats and borophagine dogs, for example, research by paleontologists indicates that the arrival of more cat species into North America caused the extinction of the borophaginae or bone-crushing dogs because they had the same niche and cats were simply better at it. On the African Plains, the herbivores actually "separate" the grass among themselves if you will. Some eat the tougher grasses while others eat the smaller, tender grasses. Interestingly, desert bighorns and mule deer didn't historically coexist with each other, but they do now because the habitat has gotten better for the deer, and pronghorns don't normally live in rocky areas, but in grassy areas instead, so they don't really compete with desert bighorns.

"Aoudad are a valuable buffer for bighorn predation."

Do you know what else provides a predation buffer for desert bighorns? Mule Deer. For those unfamiliar, lethal control has previously been used on cougars to boost desert bighorn populations. However, targeted removal is used since it's now known that the big cats prefer mule deer which are more abundant and only a few cougars become bighorn specialists. In other words, aoudads aren't actually needed to provide a predation buffer.

"Many professionals who suggest removing aoudad justify their advice by charging that aoudad drive bighorn and other animals off of water.
This is a bogus charge, based on Circle Ranch pictures of aoudad and sheep peacefully sharing water—and of other species using that same water or nearby water.We have reviewed 5,000 photos per month for 12-years at 13-camera points. All of this evidence has been offered to BRI and TPWD; thousands of photos are posted on this blog. Those who propose aoudad eradication because aoudad prevent other animals from drinking should share their proof."

Interesting because notice how in the picture presented, at the water source, that the aoudads are drinking first while the bighorns are waiting. Almost as if the bighorns know what will happen if they drink at the same time the aoudads do. Then again, this probably isn't even a water source but a food source. If that's the case, then they're the ones to talk about sharing proof in this case.

And that's basically what I've got for this article. Interactions of Aoudad & Bighorn Sheep | Pitchstone Waters
 
IMO, compassionate conservation is completely idiotic. These people have no idea how ecology, conservation, and wildlife management even work.

People don't realize that sometimes, conservation requires having to kill individuals, be it for control or to weed out individuals, and trying to deny it never results in any good.

You also get the fact that often, these people come from affluent, white nations that impose their world views on people from other countries.
 
I think Aoudad should be left in place and managed as a game species. Same with all the established exotic herbivores in Texas…and New Mexico.

Save your slings…I know it’s an unpopular opinion. ;-).

A healthy Aoudad population (and Gemsbok and Nilgai and, heck, even Feral Hog) provide an opportunity to reestablish Wolves and Jaguars with a prey species of the size and habitat preferences to allow those predators to flourish on what (post-Pleistocene extinctions) have been marginal habitat. It’s probably how the Desert Bighorn Sheep came to be in the first place and why the animal is so fragile in what is supposed to be it’s prime habitat.
 
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I think Aoudad should be left in place and managed as a game species. Same with all the established exotic herbivores in Texas…and New Mexico.

Save your slings…I know it’s an unpopular opinion. ;-).

A healthy Aoudad population (and Gemsbok and Nilgai and, heck, even Feral Hog) provide an opportunity to reestablish Wolves and Jaguars with a prey species of the size and habitat preferences to allow those predators to flourish on what (post-Pleistocene extinctions) have been marginal habitat. It’s probably how the Desert Bighorn Sheep came to be in the first place and why the animal is so fragile in what is supposed to be it’s prime habitat.
I've had this argument before with you and I have no desire to get back into it again, but I will say supporting Feral Hogs is just going too far. Have you seen the destruction those things cause?
 
I think Aoudad should be left in place and managed as a game species. Same with all the established exotic herbivores in Texas…and New Mexico.

Save your slings…I know it’s an unpopular opinion. ;-).

A healthy Aoudad population (and Gemsbok and Nilgai and, heck, even Feral Hog) provide an opportunity to reestablish Wolves and Jaguars with a prey species of the size and habitat preferences to allow those predators to flourish on what (post-Pleistocene extinctions) have been marginal habitat. It’s probably how the Desert Bighorn Sheep came to be in the first place and why the animal is so fragile in what is supposed to be it’s prime habitat.

You do realize that both predators thrived in Pre-colonial times without those exotic herbivores, right? They aren't actually needed in the Texas and New Mexico ecosystem. As for the desert bighorns, their historic range didn't even overlap with cougars. So they didn't overlap with jaguars or wolves either. Hence how they likely really came to be.

Also, there's no way on earth the Texas game agency would be open to reestablishing wolves and jaguars since those are animals hunters would see as competition. Classifying all the exotic ungulates would make them even more resistant to their reestablishment.
 
You do realize that both predators thrived in Pre-colonial times without those exotic herbivores, right? They aren't actually needed in the Texas and New Mexico ecosystem. As for the desert bighorns, their historic range didn't even overlap with cougars. So they didn't overlap with jaguars or wolves either. Hence how they likely really came to be.

Also, there's no way on earth the Texas game agency would be open to reestablishing wolves and jaguars since those are animals hunters would see as competition. Classifying all the exotic ungulates would make them even more resistant to their reestablishment.
That can't be right. Weren't Cougars historically found throughout North America? Cougars and Desert Bighorns overlap in range today, and I doubt Cougars have had a range expansion in the last 200 years.
 
That can't be right. Weren't Cougars historically found throughout North America? Cougars and Desert Bighorns overlap in range today, and I doubt Cougars have had a range expansion in the last 200 years.

Historically speaking, few cougars lived in the desert ecosystems, but grazing livestock changed deserts into shrublands and chaparral. This allowed mule deer populations to increase and now they thrive in areas the bighorns live and following the deer were cougars.

Hope that clears it up.
 
Historically speaking, few cougars lived in the desert ecosystems, but grazing livestock changed deserts into shrublands and chaparral. This allowed mule deer populations to increase and now they thrive in areas the bighorns live and following the deer were cougars.

Hope that clears it up.
So it wasn't that their ranges didn't overlap, just that they come into contact more often today than they did historically.
 
Indeed, Tsuki has made numerous videos about introduced species and their negative impacts.

However, he also made two videos about “beneficial” non-indigenous species.
 
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