Don't trust the chimps!

[James27]

Ok, let me clear this up:
When I said that chimps are evil I was merely implying that they're horrible animals to work with and I don't really like them as a species. They can be cute and I'm sure there are some which are nice to work with, it's just the ones that I worked with were not very nice at all!

 

[James27]

Oh Dan, I just understood your post! By evil I just meant they're horrible animals to work with. I know the "beating each other up" is natural behaviour in some ways but to me any animal that kills another animal just for the hell of it is not a very nice animal.
I'm just not keen on chimps

 

[Dan]

Aha, I understand... no worries then! Simply a misunderstanding between the two of us.
I thought you were going deeply philosophical etc.

Still... to be honest, I am a bit puzzled even by your choice of words in this latest post of yours. "NICE" (or not)? Is that word really applicable to any non-human species?

What I am trying to get to in my broken English, I guess, is that chimps, like any other non-human animal, are ruled by instincts so much more than we humans are and therefore even words like "nice" are not applicable.

Or is this just a semantic discussion? (I know that I cannot conduct semantic discussions in languages other than my own... , if that...).

 

[James27]

I see your point, I guess technically I shouldn't be describing chimps as nice or bad, but seeing as they're basically the same as us I guess it's more acceptable this time lol

 

[Dan]

If so, we COULD turn REALLY PHILOSOPHICAL and ask questions about our "right" to keep them captive etc....

But I won´t go into that, partly because I cannot master questions like that in a foreign languge, partly because it it is getting to bloody late here in Sweden...

 

[James27]

And I don't think that'd go down to well on a zoo forum xD

 

[Dan]

Hmmmmm..................... zoo forums COULD expand and discuss other than strictly technical-zoo-questions, even engage in related questions that may be.... no, sorry, I am only teasing!

Please do write that review on Singapore Zoo, Ash! I will be looking forward to reading it.

Signing off for tonight, now!

 

[Jose]

correct me if I'm wrong but has this violent behaviour has ever been documented in Bonobos?

i wouldnt have thought so , i mean Bonobos are a far more gentle species then chimpanzees , i would be very suprised if there have been any violent attacks by Bonobos on human beings

 

[Jose]

I wouldn't say Port Lympne had 'security barriers' for the chimp enclosure at the time, they did at the viewing area, but next to it was a slope going down to the service area with only a chain across it. The door to the service area of the house was open at the time. Not long after the attack all the service drive-in areas had wide gates made of steel and mesh with very clear signs. Port Lympne was slated by the press after this incident.

true , what i meant was around the viewing area , i remember the chain link around the slope to what is now the bachelor gorrila service area , and it was irresponsible to leave the door open , however i think a great deal of the blame lies on the parents , as a parent i would never allow my son to get within close proximity within a potentially dangerous animal like a Chimpanzee and i am always vigilant with my son at the zoos here in Mexico we visit, many of which have very lax security fences etc

 

[Jose]

Aha, I understand... no worries then! Simply a misunderstanding between the two of us.
I thought you were going deeply philosophical etc.

Still... to be honest, I am a bit puzzled even by your choice of words in this latest post of yours. "NICE" (or not)? Is that word really applicable to any non-human species?

What I am trying to get to in my broken English, I guess, is that chimps, like any other non-human animal, are ruled by instincts so much more than we humans are and therefore even words like "nice" are not applicable.

Or is this just a semantic discussion? (I know that I cannot conduct semantic discussions in languages other than my own... , if that...).

I also find it difficult to carry out semantic discussions in english amigo despite me being an english teacher for the past decade hahaha

 

[SMR]

What I am trying to get to in my broken English, I guess, is that chimps, like any other non-human animal, are ruled by instincts so much more than we humans are and therefore even words like "nice" are not applicable.

That's still a debatable point, and current research suggests that human behaviour is greatly influence by social and genetic conditioning and "instinct". Anyone who has spent time around domestic species - pet dogs and cats for example - can identify pleasant and unpleasant animals.

There are many instances of emotion being shown in chimps, the famous photograph from the most recent National Geographic being one example, instances of torture and other "human" traits have also been seen, therefore "evil" is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

It's also worth pointing out that you can't group great apes such as chimps in with "all animals", since the ratio of conscious thought, temperament and instinct varies greatly across species.

 

[Jose]

That's still a debatable point, and current research suggests that human behaviour is greatly influence by social and genetic conditioning and "instinct". Anyone who has spent time around domestic species - pet dogs and cats for example - can identify pleasant and unpleasant animals.

There are many instances of emotion being shown in chimps, the famous photograph from the most recent National Geographic being one example, instances of torture and other "human" traits have also been seen, therefore "evil" is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

It's also worth pointing out that you can't group great apes such as chimps in with "all animals", since the ratio of conscious thought, temperament and instinct varies greatly across species.

This is fascinating stuff amigo

 

[Panthera Puss]

That's still a debatable point, and current research suggests that human behaviour is greatly influence by social and genetic conditioning and "instinct". Anyone who has spent time around domestic species - pet dogs and cats for example - can identify pleasant and unpleasant animals.

Some animals are just more nice-natured than others (whatever that means).

As an adjunct, it's also quite scary how quickly humans can revert to 'animal' behaviour by picking on a member of their social group showing any weakness. I think about whether we're any different from the animals, and our relationships as carers / imprisoners whenever I'm in a zoo - I think it's important that faith is made stronger by doubting it, rather than blind adherance.

 

[Dan]

That's still a debatable point, and current research suggests that human behaviour is greatly influence by social and genetic conditioning and "instinct". Anyone who has spent time around domestic species - pet dogs and cats for example - can identify pleasant and unpleasant animals.

There are many instances of emotion being shown in chimps, the famous photograph from the most recent National Geographic being one example, instances of torture and other "human" traits have also been seen, therefore "evil" is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

It's also worth pointing out that you can't group great apes such as chimps in with "all animals", since the ratio of conscious thought, temperament and instinct varies greatly across species.

You certainly bring up some very interesting points here, SMR, but could it be that you and I are to some extent comparing apples with oranges?

I don´t doubt for a moment that many non-human species are capable of having feelings like for instance grief, just as in the example you point at. I also don´t doubt that our human actions, on the other hand, are probably much more governed by instinct than we would normally like to think... ).

But I was thinking more in terms of "moral choice". Is it reasonable to assume that any other animal than homo sapiens has the ability to make "moral choices" - i.e. contemplate on whether one´s actions are righteous or not?

My personal GUESS is that no other species has that capability.

(Which is why I hate the way humans treat non-human animals in general, but that is another debate...).

 

[Goretex]

Some interesting points have been made here.

Chimps are an animal where you wonder wether they're evil. Humans do indeed show many of their traits. But I don't think chimps do have nearly as many morals as we do. Thats they're biggest difference!

They don't have a proper language and they can't have religous belifes and so in that sence I don't think they are evil.

But some of you are right that many of the basic tendencies that humans have are also in chimps. I remember on the "Last Chance to see" with Stevan Fry his natualist guide Mark Carwardine did say that the reason why he disliked chimps was simply because they were too much like us. I can certainly sympathise here but he did when seeing this chimp group he saw their best nature and seemed to think more positively of them.

 

[bbelephant]

such a shame that a beautiful animal like this had to live in a house! whilst i dont agree that primates kept privatly should be baned, they seriously need to introduce a similar system to the DWAL that we have in this country, a license that means only primates can be kept under the right conditions e.g a VERY large enclosure, in a group and only with people who have the correct knowledge of how to keep such an intelligent animal.
amazing that it doesnt happen more often in america, and that people can go around buying a large primate, dress it up and keep it in a cage in a house!
i feel for the women whos horrificly injured but if you play with fire one day your gona get burnt
stu

The lady that got attacked was actually just there to help her friend (the one who owned the chimp) the lady called her and said her chimp had gone nuts and so her friend went to help her out, and the chimp got out and apparently when the cops got there the ladies fingers were all over the lawn and he was eating her arm.

Primates should NEVER be kept as pets. Whether the person has knowledge on them or not.