Douc langur in SE Asian zoos

Hmm, i thought the information was in this thread and it allready came out a little harsher then i had intended so sorry about that. Everyone is welcome here and everyone can miss something, so no worries.

About the Douc's movement. Rumours are that the animals from the US are going to be moved to a zoo that's allready keeping them. As far as i know, there are only 4 possible kandidates in the world. Zoo Cologne allready has 2 elderly females, a younger male and female and a baby male and not much room to keep more. They allready mentioned that no additional animals would be imported.

The EPBC in Vietnam is (for me) another unlikely candidate, since they need all the room they can come up for rescue purposes. Leaves Dusit Zoo and Singapore Zoo. Of the two, Singapore has a huge reputation with an even bigger reputation in keeping and breeding leaf-eating monkeys. So they would be the best candidate by a very long shot.

If someone at a zoo then mentions them as the zoo they are going to, then i'm quite willing to go out on a limb and say that if the animals are moving, they will go to Singapore. Of course i'm not certain, and if anyone wants to disagree then be my guest...
 
id'e agree that if the animals are being moved, then singapore is the most likely choice. when i visited the EPRC, they had plenty of red-shanked doucs. in fact they bred there rather prolifically and were the one species they had the most of. they were also planning reintroduction trials with this species and had a "semi-wild" troop living in a fenced off patch of adjacent forest. with so may rescued animals and their genetics - they need these doucs less than any institution that keeps the species.

cologne's animals are inbred and really should be sent away as well. they hardly thrive
in germany and i think the fact that the zoo holds onto them is very selfish and an absolute waste couter-productive to establishing the species in captivity. they should also be exported back to asia.

last time i went to dusit they had a breeding troop, but in a rather lousy cage. whilst i hardly trust dusit or its staff (for good reason) the animals would probably do better here than staying in the US or germany. dusit is a second choice, but a poor second.

that leaves singapore. good exhibit, breeding opportunities, the right climate, good experienced husbandry and no issues sourcing food as is the case at cologne.

its logical, its perfect.
 
Though I haven't heard anything yet, Singapore is definitely a front-runner to receive doucs from San Diego. The 2 zoos have been collaborating on a captive douc langur study for the past 2 years, and San Diego has even sponsored a significant amount of money to build an off-exhibit breeding facility for doucs and proboscis monkeys at Singapore Zoo.

I'm pretty sure San Diego had clear intentions when it gave out the money.
 
Zooish said:
Though I haven't heard anything yet, Singapore is definitely a front-runner to receive doucs from San Diego. The 2 zoos have been collaborating on a captive douc langur study for the past 2 years, and San Diego has even sponsored a significant amount of money to build an off-exhibit breeding facility for doucs and proboscis monkeys at Singapore Zoo.

I'm pretty sure San Diego had clear intentions when it gave out the money.
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I still sincerely hope that if and when the doucs are relocated to Singapore Zoo, it will take the initiative to set up a regional breeding programme with Dusit Zoo, Thailand, the EPRC center, Vietnam and other SE Asian zoos maintaining doucs. It would be most helpful if local zoos would improve their track record and experience in maintaining leaf eating langurs. I believe Singapore is a member of the regional SEAZA organisation.
 
you're quite right jelle, Singapore Zoo is a member of SEAZA. The problem is that most SEAZA members are developing nations which have little resources and manpower. For such a breeding program to work, a few Western zoos need to step in to help out, especially funding wise. As rich as Singapore Zoo is, for it to bear the entire cost of such a project seems unlikely.

Not to mention, many zoos that do keep doucs, especially in Vietnam and Thailand, are not SEAZA members. A few aren't even officially registered within their own countries.

Its a worthy project, but it won't be easy to implement.
 
Hi Zooish,

I suppose that if Koeln Zoo, Muenster Zoo (which also has contacts with both EPRC and the Angkor Conservation Center in Cambodia) Apenheul Zoo and San Diego Zoo would set their mind to assisting with funds and at least would make the Thai (Thailand Zoo Organisation) and Malaysian zoos (Malaysia has an assoc of its own with major zoos like Kuala Lumpur and Melaka members) to become interested in the project it would mean so much ....!!! :D The same would go for PKBSI in Indonesia with Taman Safari the coordinating institution.

Species that would surely benefit are Malayan tapirs, pileated gibbons, silvery gibbons, Bornean greys, langurs (more and different species), babirusas, anoas, hornbills. I can also see major animal exchange programmes developing more readily. Funds flowing into in situ conservation.

But what I do not understand at this time why are no Thai and Malaysian zoos involved with SEAZA?
 
I think the only Thai zoo associated with SEAZA is Khao Kheow, Malaysia has Taiping Zoo and Zoo Negara as SEAZA members. While the 2 countries are arguably more wealthy amongst SE Asian nations, they put very little priority on conservation (as with any other developing nation, its not a problem unique to these 2 nations). Their zoos are not well-funded so have little capacity to carry out any kind of conservation project beyond captive breeding.

On a different note, corruption is pretty bad in Thailand and Malaysia, with animal smuggling remaining a huge issue. There is a rumour here in Singapore that a certain Malaysian zoo is breeding exotic snakes and selling them to the illegal pet trade in Malaysia and Singapore. The zoo apparently omits any records of snake breeding or accounts for the missing animals as "deaths".

Politics also gets in the way at times, with feuding nations reluctant to cooperate with one another, even on non-political conservation matters.

Its issues like these that are seriously hampering conservation efforts in SE Asia.
 
Zooish, Do you think that the Singapore zoo will expand its numbers of Doucs since they do so well there?
 
At the moment there are about 15 douc langurs in Singapore, with a group of 8 on exhibit, the rest off-exhibit (split into breeding groups). From a capacity point of view, probably around 20-25 animals would be max. This situation is similar for our proboscis monkeys (around 17 individuals) too, running out of space...
 
With so few zoos holding the doucs & Proboscis monkeys maybe they could phase out some of the more common monkey species and focus on these ones, they seem to thrive in the conditions there as they should being tropical
 
Zooish said:
I think the only Thai zoo associated with SEAZA is Khao Kheow, Malaysia has Taiping Zoo and Zoo Negara as SEAZA members. While the 2 countries are arguably more wealthy amongst SE Asian nations, they put very little priority on conservation (as with any other developing nation, its not a problem unique to these 2 nations). Their zoos are not well-funded so have little capacity to carry out any kind of conservation project beyond captive breeding.

On a different note, corruption is pretty bad in Thailand and Malaysia, with animal smuggling remaining a huge issue. There is a rumour here in Singapore that a certain Malaysian zoo is breeding exotic snakes and selling them to the illegal pet trade in Malaysia and Singapore. The zoo apparently omits any records of snake breeding or accounts for the missing animals as "deaths".

Politics also gets in the way at times, with feuding nations reluctant to cooperate with one another, even on non-political conservation matters.

Its issues like these that are seriously hampering conservation efforts in SE Asia.
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Point taken. I think that us supporting local NGO's in their environmental and conservation campaigns is called for here! Their political clout is not yet at a momentum that they can define the stakes for government conservation policy, but they are sure making inroads there!
 
Zooish said:
At the moment there are about 15 douc langurs in Singapore, with a group of 8 on exhibit, the rest off-exhibit (split into breeding groups). From a capacity point of view, probably around 20-25 animals would be max. This situation is similar for our proboscis monkeys (around 17 individuals) too, running out of space...
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So, perhaps it is time for Singapore Zoo to venture beyond its own limits? It certainly has the finances in place to do so. Really, Singapore Zoo already is an INSTITUTION when it comes to zoo and conservation management and being a great zoo exhibitWISE.

In situ support for a douc langur reserve or what? Taking on board Dusit Zoo that is also breeding the doucs in numbers (only not that publicised) in its endeavours. There are loads of options and opportunities to explore

Sure it is not easy, but I am convinced it can be done ...! Look at how EPRC in Vietnam has singlehandedly changed the entire government agenda on conservation of its endangered primates and protected area management. By doing what they did and do - supported as they are by foreign zoos both in finances and technicals on site - they have put conservatoin on the political agenda and now they can no longer ignore the very fact that an unique flora and fauna needs effective and adequate government protection.

So, I challenge everyone overthere ... take on and engage your government!

Slightly off-topic: are you in any way involved professionally with Singapore Zoo? :confused:
 
MARK said:
With so few zoos holding the doucs & Proboscis monkeys maybe they could phase out some of the more common monkey species and focus on these ones, they seem to thrive in the conditions there as they should being tropical
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This idea is actually being set in motion Mark, although very slowly, with the eventual focus of the primate collection at Singapore Zoo being Asian leaf monkeys. But this will probably take a few years.

There will always be risks inherent to keeping all your eggs in one basket, so a better solution as jelle pointed out would be regional co-operation.
 
jelle said:
So, perhaps it is time for Singapore Zoo to venture beyond its own limits? It certainly has the finances in place to do so. Really, Singapore Zoo already is an INSTITUTION when it comes to zoo and conservation management and being a great zoo exhibitWISE.
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Yup, i would personally like to see more in-situ efforts by Singapore Zoo. The money is there, but the expertise is not. It has a relatively short history (turning 35 this year), and it doesn't have the backing of a zoological society unlike other more established zoos.

Hopefully that will materialize in the coming years.
 
jelle said:
Slightly off-topic: are you in any way involved professionally with Singapore Zoo? :confused:
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I used to work in the Zoo's education and operations departments, but I left in Dec 07 to pursue other interests. I left on good terms though and still remain in touch with many Zoo staff.
 
Zooish said:
I used to work in the Zoo's education and operations departments, but I left in Dec 07 to pursue other interests. I left on good terms though and still remain in touch with many Zoo staff.
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Thanks, anyway it is great news that Singapore Zoo is now switching over to native leaf eating monkeys (Presbytis and sundry taxa). Several leaf eaters surely missed are P. rubicundus, P. frontata and I can go on for miles on this ... (lol) :D They are a frequently overlooked group of primates due to their special needs in nutrition (a shame really .. they are so beautiful) and by far some of the most endangered both in terms of numbers and habitat.

As you said Singapore Zoo has a good foundation as a conservation science center, financial clout and hopefully in a few years time a zoological society to back up its scientific clout in SE Asia. The Natural History Museum in Singapore could perhaps be involved too (a sort of Raffles Conservation Society)!!!

When I will go to the Phillipines and Indonesia (Sulawesi to actually see anoas and babirusas in the wild) next year, I would like to stop over in Singapore for a few days again. Perhaps we can pursue our common interests then (and possibly a peek behind the scenes with staff or is that too devious)? :D
 
jelle said:
Thanks, anyway it is great news that Singapore Zoo is now switching over to native leaf eating monkeys (Presbytis and sundry taxa). Several leaf eaters surely missed are P. rubicundus, P. frontata and I can go on for miles on this ... (lol) :D They are a frequently overlooked group of primates due to their special needs in nutrition (a shame really .. they are so beautiful) and by far some of the most endangered both in terms of numbers and habitat.

As you said Singapore Zoo has a good foundation as a conservation science center, financial clout and hopefully in a few years time a zoological society to back up its scientific clout in SE Asia. The Natural History Museum in Singapore could perhaps be involved too (a sort of Raffles Conservation Society)!!!

When I will go to the Phillipines and Indonesia (Sulawesi to actually see anoas and babirusas in the wild) next year, I would like to stop over in Singapore for a few days again. Perhaps we can pursue our common interests then (and possibly a peek behind the scenes with staff or is that too devious)? :D
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Sadly there isn't a Natural History Museum in Singapore. The closest thing to it is a small display of taxidermised animals at the National University's Department of Biological Sciences (its called the Raffles Museum of Biodiversity Research).

Hope you make it here! The behind-the-scenes part might be a little hard to do though :)
 
Zooish said:
Sadly there isn't a Natural History Museum in Singapore. The closest thing to it is a small display of taxidermised animals at the National University's Department of Biological Sciences (its called the Raffles Museum of Biodiversity Research).

Hope you make it here! The behind-the-scenes part might be a little hard to do though :)
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1. This Uni thing is what I meant ..... I remember the Raffles Museum all to well.

2. Thanx, make that a big dot in your diary for 2009! :D
 
patrick said:
last time i went to dusit they had a breeding troop, but in a rather lousy cage. whilst i hardly trust dusit or its staff (for good reason) the animals would probably do better here than staying in the US or germany. dusit is a second choice, but a poor second.
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Are you able to elaborate on the Dusit comment, Patrick? I was at Dusit last year, and while it suffers a bit from the poor Asian-zoo-syndrome most of the animals were in good condition (yes, the doucs are in really antiquated cages). Is there dodgy dealings going on?
 
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