twycrosszoo
Well-Known Member
I believe that the Dolphinarium was actually at the now closed St Asaph Zoo not the Seaquarium site.
There is a guide to the St Asaph Zoo with a dolphin on the cover. I assume that it was actually built!!.
Dudley Zoological Gardens Dudley Zoo killer Whale
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There is a guide to the St Asaph Zoo with a dolphin on the cover. I assume that it was actually built!!.
That's really interesting. I knew that they had dolphins. I would be interested in getting any photos for my UK Dolphinaria web site:
UK Dolphinaria
As I stated above Ryhl dolphinarium was on the fun-fair site and run by Entam aka Trust House Forte who also ran Woburn and Knowsley Dolphinariums and took over the dolphinarium at Porthcawl's Coney Beach Fun Fair.
There was also a dolphin show at
Gwydir Castle, Llanrwst, Conwy, Historic Attraction Bed Breakfast Accomodation
It was operated for one season I think by Don Robinson - Scarborough Marineland and Zoo and Director of Scotia Investments for a time.
johnstoni
Well-Known Member
I think Brighton was fortunate in fact to have a strong opposition to their planned development, only because the sunken entrance plaza metres away from a noisy roundabout in the middle of brighton nightlife was wholly unsuitable for seals and otters. Apart from the lack of space, when you're submitting a proposal that includes netting above the enclosures to prevent bottles and other items being thrown by drunken clubbers, I think it really is time to step back and ask why aquatic mammals need to be housed at such a site.
Yes I agree. All the marine mammals housed there in the past where inside the body of the aquarium. The site footprint just not big enough although the old dolphin pool would be okay for seals or sealions. Unfortunately the isn't much available light only from the front windows in the building.
Brighton's last sealions were house in the original dolphin pool now the site of the Sealife Gift Shop.
..and this was the seal pool which was originally the sealion pool - located where the ray tank is now in the Sealife Centre.
Found video here. Good old Pathe News. Worth a search for other zoo stuff.
British Pathe - CUDDLES THE KILLER WHALE
Vulpes
Well-Known Member
Should I not have posted it? I will just point out that it was not posted in this particular discussion and in this instance very relevant. I think that comments like that Cat Man are detrimental to this forum and discourage people from posting important information in case of receiving discouraging comments like this. Please keep out of discussions if you have nothing constructive to say! Its down right rude!
you were right to, i was just pointing out that the link has been posted many times to that great website
Harbourmaster
New Member
Wow! This thread brings back memories. Cuddles was a big star in the Midlands in the 1970s. I went to see him when I was very young. I remember him jumping out of the water, but had totally forgotten about the "Florida-style" tricks that he was made to perform, and all the seating around his enclosure. I had no idea that he died in 1974, so I must have been 5 or 6 when I saw him. He's always been a great animal hero from my childhood, but of course I'm now horrified at the conditions he was kept in.
RIP Cuddles.
RIP Cuddles.
adrian1963
Well-Known Member
MarwellGirl09
Well-Known Member
Cuddles was a super aggressive Orca. To the point where it became very dangerous to go near the waters edge if reports are to be believed. It's rare for photo's of Cuddles to crop up, but Nemo (Of Windsor Safari Park) and Neptune (of Clacton Pier) are possibly even rarer. Hoi Wai also lived as WSP for a very short time before moving on.
I'm glad that the UK doesn't have cetacean's at the moment, but I can see them returning in the future. I think we've got enough we need to upgrade with existing zoo's and enclosures (not pointing fingers, just meaning in general) before we get Cetaceans. I am fairly neutral on the anti or pro captivity, I'm in the middle, but I wouldn't visit captured cetaceans...
I'm glad that the UK doesn't have cetacean's at the moment, but I can see them returning in the future. I think we've got enough we need to upgrade with existing zoo's and enclosures (not pointing fingers, just meaning in general) before we get Cetaceans. I am fairly neutral on the anti or pro captivity, I'm in the middle, but I wouldn't visit captured cetaceans...
MARK
Well-Known Member
I'm glad that the UK doesn't have cetacean's at the moment, but I can see them returning in the future. I think we've got enough we need to upgrade with existing zoo's and enclosures (not pointing fingers, just meaning in general) before we get Cetaceans. I am fairly neutral on the anti or pro captivity, I'm in the middle, but I wouldn't visit captured cetaceans...[/QUOTE]
I would have to agree with you Marwellgirl, Unless someone in the UK can reach deep into their wallets and build a first class exhibit for cetaceans they should not be keep them, when they have been kept in the past in very sub standed conditions it gives animal rights group "heaps" of amo to use for not keeping them in captivity SO if the do appear again in the UK best get it right from the start with no more penny pinching exhibits
I would have to agree with you Marwellgirl, Unless someone in the UK can reach deep into their wallets and build a first class exhibit for cetaceans they should not be keep them, when they have been kept in the past in very sub standed conditions it gives animal rights group "heaps" of amo to use for not keeping them in captivity SO if the do appear again in the UK best get it right from the start with no more penny pinching exhibits
MarwellGirl09
Well-Known Member
If we did get Cetaceans back, I'd have to say Marineland D'Antibes Orca pool is what I'd call minimal for new facilities. But Dolphins (eg Bottlenoses) It's tricky, too much space and they clump together, too little space and they get aggressive. Maybe Marineland D'Antibes' Dolphin pool crossed with Loro Parques Orca pool :S
And Valencia is highly unlikely to get Orca from France now. There's only 4 now (Freya, Valentin, Inouk and Wiki) and they need to stay together (for their health, not my personal feelings
) So I think that's been put on hold for a while if not forgotten all together.
And Valencia is highly unlikely to get Orca from France now. There's only 4 now (Freya, Valentin, Inouk and Wiki) and they need to stay together (for their health, not my personal feelings
) So I think that's been put on hold for a while if not forgotten all together.MarwellGirl09
Well-Known Member
I've seen a few of my mothers photo's of WSP and I can't believe they ever kept Dolphins or Orca's in there. But then I remember Miami SeaQuarium was massive in its day... Now, not so much. But I know that wont change and Lolita wouldn't survive the change. She's too fussy about everything :S But yes, the best we can afford for cetaceans, we can't be updating everything every year.
I am not aware that ‘Cuddles’ was a ‘super aggressive Orca’ and I speak as someone who saw her and also knew people who worked with him, e.g. Geraldine Watmore her original trainer, Francis Randell and Jean Tiebor (Haig) plus her vet David Taylor (of the now International Zoo Veterinary Group) and Reg Bloom the then Curator of Flamingo Park that imported 'Cuddles' and other cetaceans.
You may be, of course, referring to the incident at Dudley where 'Cuddles' pulled Don Robinson into his pool. But I get the impression that while this may have happened it was not aggression in the true sense. Certainly Robinson lived to tell the tail and the zoo milked the story for it's free publicity.
I would be interested to know your reference for this.
There are many, many photos of ‘Cuddles' both at Flamingo Park and Dudley Zoo and ‘Nemo’, ‘Neptune’ and 'Suzie Wong' aka 'Hoi Wai' at Clacton Pier. There is even news footage of "Nemo" transport to Windsor in 1984 here.
Start by looking at my UK Dolphinaria web site and also the Clacton Pier site which has excellent photos and press cuttings.
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The UK has legal minimum standards for cetaceans and so do a number of other countries so the observations regarding the keeping standards in the UK in the past are interesting but basically now academic. I have pointed out in the past that as far as the UK concerned there was no legal standards for any zoo animals prior to 1984.
With the greatest respect I have to say that your comments regrading the behavior of Tursiops in captivity are based on what exactly? 'Too much or to little space' are not helpful terms.
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Peter Dickinson
Well-Known Member
As someone who worked indirectly (and sometimes directly) with 'Cuddles' and closely with the staff who did I would side with John here. I can recall no incident (apart from the Robinson one) where this orca could be described as super aggressive.
Thanks for that Peter. I was going to go re-edit my comment and mention you also as I recall you were working at Flamingo at the time. You beat me to it
I would like to add some observations.
There seems to be a opinion that things were pretty dreadful for many cetaceans held in the UK in past. Indeed, many facilities were very poor and were opened for pure short-term money making - mainly bypeople from the entertainment industry and not zoological collections.
But others for there time could be considered good when looked at with historical context and comparing them with exhibits containing other zoos animals at that time, I am thinking of some big cat exhibits and bears. In the case of Flamingo Park, Morecambe - both dolphinaria opened in the mid-1960s - and also Brighton Aquarium the financial investment on building their dolphin exhibits was not small; Brighton dolphinarium cost £200,000 when constructed in 1972 that would now be millions of pounds by today standards.
If one looks at dolphinria been built or refurnished now in other places such as Europe I think you get a truer picture of what could have happened in the UK if some facilities had remained.
The 'problem' with cetaceans is they have achieved a rather silly 'new age' label with even Merlin's Sealife Centres saying they would not keep them because they are not suitable for captive care* And compounding this by notices at their Brighton Centre saying that dolphin keeping had been ban in the UK and the two dolphins they gave to the Into The Blue project were successfully reintroduced back to the wild via the Into The Blue project, which is actually not proved.
But as an animal species, animals like bottlenosed dolphins do very well in appropriate captive care and the ethics of keeping them are no greater or lesser than other 'common' zoo species such as the above mentioned big cats and bears.
* Sealife Centre will never have cetaceans because ironically they couldn't or wouldn't put up the huge investment to house them to modern standards. Many of their existing sites also have a constricted foot-print e.g Brighton and just don't have the space to build a modern dolphin facility. They basically display species that are cheap and easy to keep and accommodate and also easy to replace. I personally find there position regarding cetaceans hypercritical to say the least. How many of the Sealife lifestock are captive bred? Very few I would suspect.
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