mstickmanp
Well-Known Member
Here is another link with info and photos: ZooBorns: Taronga Zoo Celebrates the Birth of an Elephant Calf
Taronga Zoo elephant Calf born
- Thread starter jay
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dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
harnesses I have read before are used on calfs to help nurse.
my instinct is to say...
"can everyone please leave the barn"
now i know these animals have built a trust with their keepers and i know their keepers what what's best for the animals. but i do think they need a reminder that elephants have evolved to reproduce without the intervention of a dozen humans for millions of years.
so i think its sad that the taronga keepers have no problems wrapping a harness around the baby as soon as its born, cracking out the flash photography and inviting six or more people to all stand around the cow giving her no personal space YET feel its a bit risky to allow the other members of her herd to have unprotected contact.
i also think its sad that taronga zoo was ever allowed to import elephants in the first place.
"can everyone please leave the barn"
now i know these animals have built a trust with their keepers and i know their keepers what what's best for the animals. but i do think they need a reminder that elephants have evolved to reproduce without the intervention of a dozen humans for millions of years.
so i think its sad that the taronga keepers have no problems wrapping a harness around the baby as soon as its born, cracking out the flash photography and inviting six or more people to all stand around the cow giving her no personal space YET feel its a bit risky to allow the other members of her herd to have unprotected contact.
i also think its sad that taronga zoo was ever allowed to import elephants in the first place.
I'm sure they are being overcautious as its the very first birth they have had at the zoo, and still not absolutely sure of the other females' reactions. I'm sure they will get them together soon. And I'll bet after experience with two or three calves, they will think nothing of leaving the group altogether whenever calves are born.
Remember also that all the animal rights groups were just waiting to pounce if something bad had happened, like the calf had been killed by the mother.
This was also a first time mother in a herd of first time mothers, none of the other elephants had experience at this sort of thing. I agree with Pertinax that in time, after several births that the keepers will be more relaxed and less intrusive.
Some facts might help with your instinct. You are quite correct in that elephants have of course evolved over thousands of years to reproduce without intervention, but, this wasn't in confined spaces, in the absence of experienced mothers and aunties, and in concrete night dens. I don't know if you've seen the footage of the female immediately after the birth, but she was in considerable pain, and was pacing around the den. The opportunity for her to have accidentally trampled the calf was very high, and this could quite likely have been the outcome, if it weren't for her keepers, who she trusts, helping to steer the calf away from her during this time.
As fot eh number of keepers with her at the time, I'm not sure how much experience you have working with elephants, but managing one streesed adult elephant and a very unstable new-born calf is not something that can be managed by one or two people. I'm sure you, like most people, are pleased that Taronga have had a successful birth - I doubt that the outcome would have been the same without help from the elephant keepers.
You might also have noticed the calf took some time to stand on its own. This is normal, and in the wild, the aunties would have helped with the cleaning process, but of course, this wasn't possible in the confines of the shed, with inexperienced females. The harness was a great way of not only supporting the calf, but making it much easier for the keepers to move it out of the female's way when she approached it right after the birth.
The keepers did a magnificent job of working with their animals. Obviously, zoos cannot replicate exactly what happens in nature, and without intervention when needed, there wouldn't be anywhere near the successes that most of the zoos have. I'm sure you'd also agree that no reputable zoo is going to allow excessive intervention in any animal procedure, let alone one which has gained so much postive and negative publicity in the past, and so much media and public interest surrounding the birth.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
I wonder how they will treat Pornthip's birth? perhaps the same way as Thong Dee?
Or maybe keep Thong Dee with her as she has experinced birth and she could help with the delivery.
Or maybe keep Thong Dee with her as she has experinced birth and she could help with the delivery.
Guy said on the other day they believe Tang Mo may have seen a birth before as her reaction indicated some experience in this. and if you've been watching TODAY you will see that she is always close by and helps Thong Dee Out.
As for the number of keepers there is nothing unusual about this. Even in countries like Sri Lanka where elphants usually have one keeper (mahout) for the duration of their lives in times like births or musth for bulls this number increases significantly. It is not unusual to see half a dozen mahouts at a birth helping the mother and calf. Original news reports stated that Thong Dee was confused a bout what had happened and the result may not have been so good if the keepers were not there to keep her calm. It is an incredible relationship between the keepers and elephants.
What is going to happen if we have a few more little Bulls born, where will they go?
As for the number of keepers there is nothing unusual about this. Even in countries like Sri Lanka where elphants usually have one keeper (mahout) for the duration of their lives in times like births or musth for bulls this number increases significantly. It is not unusual to see half a dozen mahouts at a birth helping the mother and calf. Original news reports stated that Thong Dee was confused a bout what had happened and the result may not have been so good if the keepers were not there to keep her calm. It is an incredible relationship between the keepers and elephants.
What is going to happen if we have a few more little Bulls born, where will they go?
I think given the size of the stalls in the barn it would be safer for baby and keepers to have Porthip on her own with Thong Dee and Tang Mo Close by.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
Perhaps a secondary group may be made at Werribee> ?
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
yeah and the three females are quite old already, also perhaps australia zoo could be a future home?
in all sincerity thankyou for the facts zoopro.
much of your response relates to the necessity, in this particular birth, of a high degree of keeper intervention due to the conditions the elephants live in.
and since it is those conditions that i have a problem with, your response doesn't actually much change my instinctual feelings.
this elephant was born on concrete, in a small pen, surrounded by humans, and put on a lead because we put it there.
and i think its sad that arguably the most majestic of all beasts is brought into the world in such a patronising way, really sad.
this is what its comes to. this is human kinds big effort to save elephants.
- in suburban sydney with guy cooper talking babble to the Today Show literally in the foreground.
like i said, its sad.
much of your response relates to the necessity, in this particular birth, of a high degree of keeper intervention due to the conditions the elephants live in.
and since it is those conditions that i have a problem with, your response doesn't actually much change my instinctual feelings.
this elephant was born on concrete, in a small pen, surrounded by humans, and put on a lead because we put it there.
and i think its sad that arguably the most majestic of all beasts is brought into the world in such a patronising way, really sad.
this is what its comes to. this is human kinds big effort to save elephants.
- in suburban sydney with guy cooper talking babble to the Today Show literally in the foreground.
like i said, its sad.
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in this particular zoo environment, CGSwans....
because they are exceptionally large, sophisticated in herd structure and relationships, exceptionally intelligent, notoriously difficult to care for in urban environments and exceptionally endangered.
and due entirely to space limitations, Taronga zoo cannot meet the mental and physical requirements for this species long term.
if you also consider the tens of millions of dollars and fuss thats been invested in this (and the soon to be following four) rather insignificant births(s) - then one realises how much of a poor investment in conservation this really was.
do i have a problem with zoos keeping elephants? in theory no, just the way the vast majority of them do.
the same (above comment) applies to a vast array of species kept in zoos but naturally i judge things on a case by case basis so in order to avoid a generalised discussion, you'll have to be more specific about which "zoos environments" you mean.
Fair enough. I readily confess to not knowing that much about elephants (although I'm fully aware that elephant keeping is perhaps the single biggest controversy in the zoo world). What would you consider a suitable captive situation for the Taronga and Melbourne elephants, keeping in mind that the importation itself is a sunk cost (that is, the elephants are here now and a breeding program is in full-swing)?
paddocks on par with the size open range zoos seem more than happy to provide for their showcase african species. think werribee's lower savannah.
daily walks of at least an hour or more in length - outside of this paddock.
regional association policy that that refuses to separate cows simply for breeding or space limitations and bases the eventual necessity to split herds on mimicking a natural scenario, taking into account the personal relationships of the animals.
regional association policy that recognises the importance of integration of pre-existing elephants into more appropriate social groups rather than keeping them as isolated individuals for convenience of management.
regional association policy that recognises that if the local climate effects the ability
of the zoo to allow access to the above mentioned paddocks for all but the shortest of time periods, then the zoo is not suitable to be housing elephants.
comparable facilities for adult male elephants. the fact that they can not be safely walked outside their exhibit only highlights the need for even MORE space than females. a more relaxed flexible regime where various elephant rotate exhibit spaces is required over small, separate "bull facilities".
obviously all the basics, such as rubberised barn floors, deep water for swimming, shade etc, etc....
whilst not impossible, its highly unlikely any urban zoo is either large enough nor committed enough to providing this level of care. however many open range zoos can.
daily walks of at least an hour or more in length - outside of this paddock.
regional association policy that that refuses to separate cows simply for breeding or space limitations and bases the eventual necessity to split herds on mimicking a natural scenario, taking into account the personal relationships of the animals.
regional association policy that recognises the importance of integration of pre-existing elephants into more appropriate social groups rather than keeping them as isolated individuals for convenience of management.
regional association policy that recognises that if the local climate effects the ability
of the zoo to allow access to the above mentioned paddocks for all but the shortest of time periods, then the zoo is not suitable to be housing elephants.
comparable facilities for adult male elephants. the fact that they can not be safely walked outside their exhibit only highlights the need for even MORE space than females. a more relaxed flexible regime where various elephant rotate exhibit spaces is required over small, separate "bull facilities".
obviously all the basics, such as rubberised barn floors, deep water for swimming, shade etc, etc....
whilst not impossible, its highly unlikely any urban zoo is either large enough nor committed enough to providing this level of care. however many open range zoos can.
You're suggesting that zoos should only keep elephants if they're able to provide exhibits the size of Werribee's floodplain paddock?
I think you just condemned about 90% of the world captive population of elephants to homelessness. It's great to be idealistic - and I too would be happy to see Melbourne's eles move out to Werribee (though it would be a huge blow to the Royal Park campus). But we have to be realistic when it comes to setting minimum standards. You can't just wish away a worldwide population of 900+ elephants. You have to have a way of making the present situation work.
I think you just condemned about 90% of the world captive population of elephants to homelessness. It's great to be idealistic - and I too would be happy to see Melbourne's eles move out to Werribee (though it would be a huge blow to the Royal Park campus). But we have to be realistic when it comes to setting minimum standards. You can't just wish away a worldwide population of 900+ elephants. You have to have a way of making the present situation work.