Elephant Conservation - ex-situ vs in-situ

@Onychorhynchus coronatus Thank you for clarifying many things, it just seemed from my point of view that you happened to repeat yourself a few times, which is why I initially assumed there was some talking in circles going on. I still disagree though that keeping elephants in captivity is useless. Would keeping apes, big cats, giraffes, etc. be also useless, since not much reintroductions to the wild have been attempted? As much as I disagree, I'm glad you seem to be open on hearing what others have to say. :)

As @Sophie Brugmann said (I myself am also confused with whatever this discussion just as much here), there's no competition with ex-situ and in-situ conservation, and the two often coincide (also I will say I've met a few people in-person who swear by either or being better than the other, mainly from the latter which is narrow-minded). And as she summed up, having zoo elephants doesn't interfere with wild elephant conservation at all, and in fact keeping elephants has both possible scientific and emotional benefits.

Also, please correct me if anything I said is wrong, I just want to make sure I'm on the right track here.
 
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amur leopard said:
Before I answer these points, I would like to reiterate my original question - in what way is the in situ situation different enough for elephants as it was for Sumatran rhinos? Here I'm talking about the Asian elephant - for the African elephant I do agree to an extent that in situ conservation makes more sense.

The fundamental difference for me is that the governments of Sub-Saharan countries, particularly those that have large tourist influxes, are more likely to see the tourism factor as an incentive to save the elephant. In South-East Asia in particular (talking about Southern China, Indochina and Indonesia) the governments bring in little to no money from elephant tourism since the elephants themselves are so difficult to see, contrasting with the situation in Sri Lanka and India where elephants are fairly commonplace sightings within their range. What I'm trying to say is that there is massive variation in willingness to allow in situ conservation and to create protected areas for the Asian elephant (though I should of course add the caveat that Thailand is very much a pioneer in the creation of national parks and protected areas across the country).

To me, it is therefore clear that elephants will soon no longer have the viable populations necessary to maintain a stable population in the aforementioned rainforest areas, while the populations in Sri Lanka in particular may even increase. The massive gulf in willingness across the elephant's range is what creates the problem.

In fact, another parallel to draw is that between the leopard and the elephant. They have, or at least had, near identical ranges, though perhaps not facing the exact same threats. Indian and Sri Lankan leopards are doing fairly well, while populations in Indonesia, North China and Persia (all of which being previous areas in which elephants previously ranged but were extirpated), are struggling and (critically) endangered.

So in conclusion, while Indian elephants may be better treated by the government due to the tourism factor (which is not to say there is no human-elephant conflict), the elephants in South-East Asia are struggling not only due to conflict but also the unwillingness of the local governments to help, which is what it comes down to in the end.
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I don't think that the Sumatran rhino is a very good example to use if the point you are trying to make is that the bottom line is Western zoos are the answer.

The Sumatran rhino by all accounts, despite best efforts and for a variety of reasons ultimately did not do well in zoos and the general consensus today appears to be that the way forward is ex-situ conservation (semi-captivity) within the range country and specifically within protected areas.

Could you explain in more detail what similarities you see between the in-situ situation of the Sumatran rhino and Asiatic elephants ?

Apart from both species being megafauna, monotypic and historically sympatric across many parts of South-East Asia and threatened by the same loss of habitat and poaching (although I don't think there is the same demand as rhino horn and elephant populations have not been decimated as rhino) I can't see many similarities but maybe I'm just missing the point you are trying to make here.
 
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Sophie Brugmann said:
Oh, wow, that became an intensive discussion and I'm very late to the party, BUT I just wanted to add one more thing: when you look at elephants in particular in-situ and ex-situ will not be separate entities much longer. The EAZA range was planning to reintroduce the first captive bred animals. That might seem strange because Asian elephant habitats are often already at their carrying capacity, But Their genetic variability is heavily reduced, because they are so heavily fragmented. The reintroduction of genetically different bulls will heighten the chance of resistance in face of a changing environment.

I'm also fully confused by the above discussion. There is no argument named why elephants shouldn't be in Zoos. And I personally think that people who see ex-situ as a competition/exclusion of in-situ conservation are a bit short sighted, too be honest. Most people who go to a zoo don't do that to put money towards conservation. They don't ask themselves the question: do I wanna put 150€ towards elephant conservation or do I wanna go to a zoo? The money that that Zoos allocate to conservation is extra money. The existence of elephants in a zoo (even without research, in-situ projects!) Does not have any negative impact on conservation.

And elephants are one of the examples where the behavior of people in western countries actually affects the animals. So creating connection and emotion that is strong enough for people to change their behavior is having an indirect effect.

So to sum it up: Zoos don't have a negative impact for the elephants living there, don't hinder in-situ conservation and have the potential to provide indirect benefits, if done right.
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No worries, glad you are enjoying the discussion and finding it interesting.

Yes, I agree that there is a blurring of boundaries of in-situ and ex-situ management for many species in many zoos across the board now which is a fantastic development IMO and should have been put into practice a long time ago.

I wasn't aware of that EAZA plan to reintroduce captive bred elephants back into range countries for increasing genetic diversity amongst wild herds and this again is a very interesting development so thank you for sharing it.

I suppose what I was trying to highlight was that while husbandry has improved greatly in recent years there isn't really any compelling arguments in conservation terms for why elephants should be kept in zoos in the 21st century or why this should be a priority for zoos and that there is a debate around the viability of this practice.

I wasn't suggesting that support for in-situ conservation and the keeping of elephants in zoos are mutually exclusive practices as I definitely don't believe this and think that ideally these should be holistic within zoos. Rather what I was suggesting is that the idea of elephants being in zoos for "conservation purposes" shouldn't be uncritically accepted by zoochatters and warrants closer scrutiny.

I don't doubt that Western visitors seeing elephants in zoos increases interest in conservation and empathy for these animals and that is great IMO. What I was getting at was that the real frontline in the battle of hearts and minds when it comes to the conservation of these animals will be the human populations of Asia and Africa in countries where these animals occur in what remains of wild habitat.
 
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Azamat Shackleford said:
@Onychorhynchus coronatusI still disagree though that keeping elephants in captivity is useless. Would keeping apes, big cats, giraffes, etc. be also useless, since not much reintroductions to the wild have been attempted? As much as I disagree, I'm glad you seem to be open on hearing what others have to say. :)
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No problem.

Again, I didn't use the term "useless" to describe the keeping of elephants in captivity as it is clear that there are uses namely:

1. Economic utility in ensuring greater visitor numbers to zoos which is pretty much ensured when it comes to megafauna like elephants and giraffe etc.

2. In the education of visitors among whom the elephant is a very popular species to see in zoos (though I'm not convinced by this as argument for keeping these animals).

What I was arguing was that there doesn't seem to be a compelling argument from a conservation perspective for the keeping of elephants in zoos.

That said, there is always a tension between what the main function of a zoo should be and the competing priorities which often tend to be odds such as education, recreation and conservation.

Azamat Shackleford said:
Everyone in the end can learn from discussions like these no matter what as I myself already have :)
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Thats great :) open discussion is something which I think is really important for this forum
 
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Sophie Brugmann said:
Absolutely not. I think elephants just like great apes can greatly benefit from the absence of certain environmental pressures. And while African elephants are actually too abundant in a few regions, Asian elephant populations are only declining. Zoos are on a really good way when it comes to elephants. By now the important factors for welfare are known, a few Zoos need to improve, but that will come over time. Since Zoos have agreed to share the work and have created specialists facilities, there are now solutions for almost all issues. I'm really excited to see if the Pairi Daiza project gets picked up (planned to reintroduce four young males). Then it would be absolutely without fault.
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African Forest Elephants are critically endangered in the wild, they also need zoos' effort for conservation immediately.
 
I suppose it will only be known whether elephants do have a future in UK zoos when the revisions to the Kept Animals Bill is announced and will apparently only be towards the end of this year.
 
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